Your thoughts on wildcat.

[Kuyong_Chuin]

While looking through my reloading manuals at different round and their dimensions a thought came in my head. Take a .223 casing and cut it off right where the shoulder starts or right a 1 7/16 of an inch long. Then put in a 200 grain .358 bullet and load it with a powder like longshot that will keep the pressures down and the velocities up. You would then have a round that will work in an semi auto hand gun or rifle and that is a little longer than a standard 357 mag able to use both the 35 cal rifle bullets for heavier rounds or use the 357 hand gun bullets for the lighter rounds. Or you could cut it the same length as the 357 Mag and call it the 357 Remington Auto Mag but cutting it shorter might limit the bullet choices to the standard pistol bullet where the longer case gives you more room for bullets and powders. What do you guys and gals think of the idea?

 

[plmitch]

People have been doing it for years, nothing new there. .357 rimless round. .338-223 & .30-.223 apache are good ones too.

 

[buck460XVR]

People have been doing it for years,

yep....pretty much. Making a new cartridge outta a case from another round is the easy part. One still needs a gun to shoot it in.

 

[plmitch]

yep....pretty much. Making a new cartridge outta a case from another round is the easy part. One still needs a gun to shoot it in.

Well said.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

yep....pretty much. Making a new cartridge outta a case from another round is the easy part. One still needs a gun to shoot it in.

Probably wouldn't be to hard to do. For a rifle version an AR 15 with a custom barrel for the .357-.358 bullets would be fairly easy. For that matter the "pistols" that fire a .223 round are just cut down AR' s so still possible to rebarrel those as well.

 

[tyeo098]

223 necked down to 30?

300 Blackout?

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

223 necked down to 30?

300 Blackout?

The round I was suggesting wouldn't be necked down. It is almost straight wall just a slight taper. It probably could be made into a straight wall but then finding factory bullets would be a pain to find unless you use a .375 Winchester bullet.

 

[mavracer]

Since the shoulder diameter of .223 is .354 you might have trouble putting a .358 dia bullet in it.
BTW look up 351 winchester

 

[rcmodel]

Yep!

Probably .338" is the biggest it would work with.

Here is a .223 case cut-off at the shoulder, sized in a .223 die, and necked back up to .357" in a .357 Mag die.

You see the problem?



The I.D. of a cut off case is .328".

The O.D. of the expanded case is .383".
Base of the .223 case I cut was .372".

rc

 

[mokin]

^^^ Then you fire form the brass in your custom built barrel and you have an AR-15 type carbine chambered in .357 Automag with a rebated rim. The beauty is that you only have to change the barrel. A standard AR-15 bolt will still work.

Or something like that.

 

[rcmodel]

Seems like a lot of money on custom reloading dies, and a lot of work & expense fire-forming.

Just say'n.

rc

 

[justashooter in pa]

35 winchester and 351 winchester for 1907 and 1910 winchester autoloaders were based on same concept. inspiration for the 30 carbine cartridge.

 

[mavracer]

Then you fire form the brass in your custom built barrel and you have an AR-15 type carbine chambered in .357 Automag with a rebated rim. The beauty is that you only have to change the barrel. A standard AR-15 bolt will still work.

Until the case head separates at the web and 56,000 psi is dumpped in your face.
or something like that:banghead:

 

[frankenstein406]

Just build a 358 wssm

 

[mavracer]

I'd like to see a 458 socom necked down to 358.

 

[Jesse Heywood]

You will be better off to do your load development in a bolt action.

 

[tyeo098]

7.62x39 necked up to 9mm would be neat...

 

[KansasSasquatch]

7.62x39 necked up to 9mm would be neat...

That would basically be something like a .357 Maximum, just in a different shape.

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Yep!

Probably .338" is the biggest it would work with.

Here is a .223 case cut-off at the shoulder, sized in a .223 die, and necked back up to .357" in a .357 Mag die.

You see the problem?



The I.D. of a cut off case is .328".

The O.D. of the expanded case is .383".
Base of the .223 case I cut was .372".

rc

Thanks RC , That surely wouldn't work. I was using the dimensions in the manual that showed it being .358 at the 1 inch mark. Must have been the O.D. measurement at max factory dimensions. I didn't have a casing to go by.

.

 

[BigG]

The 351 and 401 Winchesters were BIG failures used in blowback autoloaders with inordinately heavy bolt carriers. They make a 30 Carbine look like a good idea except for the anemic cartridge which seemed to be a specialty of Winchester.

 

[rcmodel]

Anemic depends on your point of view I guess.

Myself?

The .30 Carbine is a near perfect round for what it was intended to do.

A 110 at 1,900+ is more power then the .45 ACP it was supposed to replace during WWII by about a power of 3.

rc

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

The basic idea I was going for was to take a rifle case that is easy to come by like the .223 or the .308 cut it down short enough to be used in a semiautomatic pistol or carbine and be able to use a bullet of a size that is not only plentiful but can be had in both rifle and pistol types. That way you could use heavier bullets in a carbine for hunting and the lighter pistol bullets for everything else. So back to the drawing board on that one.

I stayed away from using the 308 as a parent case because it used a large rifle primer not a small so I thought it would be too much for a handgun.

After looking more I noticed that the bullets are right at 0.025 on an inch smaller than the case O.D. So if you did use a .308 case you would be using a 0.430 bullet in other words a 44 and since they make autos in 44 Mag in both pistol and rifle the only benefit would be easy to make cases. Even if you made them the same length as the 44 Remington Mag rounds the guns out there that fire them would have to have at least the bolts changed.

 

[mokin]

Quote:
Then you fire form the brass in your custom built barrel and you have an AR-15 type carbine chambered in .357 Automag with a rebated rim. The beauty is that you only have to change the barrel. A standard AR-15 bolt will still work.

Until the case head separates at the web and 56,000 psi is dumpped in your face.
or something like that

I figured there was a bug in there somewhere....

 

[Kuyong_Chuin]

Until the case head separates at the web and 56,000 psi is dumpped in your face.
or something like that:banghead:

Okay question: there are loads for the 223 that are pushing right at 56,000 psi in the case as it sits, so how would the case head separate by removing the shoulder, using a lower pressure pistol powder in the shortened case, with a bullet that actually fits the cut off case, say a 32 caliber bullet, thus lowering the over all pressure? You lost me on how lowering the pressure is going to cause the case to fail or how it is going to raise the pressures up that high when the steps taken would actually lower the pressures not raise them.

 

[FROGO207]

At least you are trying to find something to fit a criteria that would be possible to make. Do not let the naysayers stop you. There have been a LOT of combos tried and will be many more tried in the future. Some are just physically impossible to make work as you can see. Get a copy of Cartridges of the World and study those. You have to take into account many size factors when designing a new round. I also echo that a single shot or bolt type firearm would be best for load development. Many twist rates/chamber designs to fool with before something starts to show promise I betcha.