Reloadron
Contributing Member
1.5598" puts you right at the start of the shoulder. The cartridge OD should be about 0.4540".
Ron
Your thoughts on wildcat.
- Thread starter Kuyong_Chuin
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Ron
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
There is one of those out there already. Came out a year after the 223. Uses the same case and length as the .223 but is necked up to .243. It is listed in the Lee manual as the 6 x 45MM or 6MM-223. The 7MM TCU is the same thing, .223 case necked up to .284. I don't see anything in the 6.5mm already in a .223 case but I don't see any pistol bullets in that size ether. From what I see the 8MM comes in both pistol and rifle type bullets with a wide variety of weights. Granted the pistol lead might be a little hard to find but I don't see why you couldn't use the 125 grain bullets for the pistol rounds it looks like a shorter bullet. You would have up to a 220 grain bullet that could be loaded into it. When I get my 6.5 MM dies and bullets to load up my M91 I might see about trying to resize the neck of a .223 to stuff one of the 160 grain bullets into an empty case to see what it looks like.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Thanks Ron.
I feel for people who are trying to get into or back into shooting with the current supply and demand situation. But I fail to see how spending thousands on custom guns, dies, reamers to keep from buying brass is economicly sound.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
It really isn't economical in any way. However, on the bright side just looking at development of a wildcat type cartridge and discussing it can be amusing. Taking it from a pipe dream or the drawing boards can be a costly experience. Kicking a few concepts around is fortunately free.
Ron
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Joey,
I can give you an idea of what it will look like:
Pictured above is a 223 case trimmed to 1.750" with a pair of 6.5mm (.264 Dia.) Sierra Match King 142 grain HPBT bullets. Now if we stuff one of those long bullets, the bullet OAL is about 1.390" into that case necked up we get something like this:
The cartridge in the above has an OAL of about 2.600" and remember that is only a 142 grain bullet. The heavier they get the more they grow. By the time I get this 142 grain bullet seated deep enough the ojive of my poor bullet will be well below my case neck. A 160 grain bullet will be even longer than this little example I was able to put together.
Using the 300 Blackout as a model for OAL the cartridge OAL of a 300 Blackout using a maximum 225 grain bullet is 2.250". That 2.250 is about as good as it gets if this thing is going to fit in a standard AR magazine.
Keep in mind at this point the deeper I shove that skinny bullet into my case the more case volume I give up. The less case volume the less powder capacity. Running short on case capacity pretty quickly and with that possible powder loadings.
By all means you can try it but for the reasons I mention I don't see getting very far.
Ron
I can give you an idea of what it will look like:
Pictured above is a 223 case trimmed to 1.750" with a pair of 6.5mm (.264 Dia.) Sierra Match King 142 grain HPBT bullets. Now if we stuff one of those long bullets, the bullet OAL is about 1.390" into that case necked up we get something like this:
The cartridge in the above has an OAL of about 2.600" and remember that is only a 142 grain bullet. The heavier they get the more they grow.
By the time I get this 142 grain bullet seated deep enough the ojive of my poor bullet will be well below my case neck. A 160 grain bullet will be even longer than this little example I was able to put together. Using the 300 Blackout as a model for OAL the cartridge OAL of a 300 Blackout using a maximum 225 grain bullet is 2.250". That 2.250 is about as good as it gets if this thing is going to fit in a standard AR magazine.
Keep in mind at this point the deeper I shove that skinny bullet into my case the more case volume I give up. The less case volume the less powder capacity. Running short on case capacity pretty quickly and with that possible powder loadings.
By all means you can try it but for the reasons I mention I don't see getting very far.
Ron
The 223 just doesn't work that well for straight wall or straight taper because of bullet avaliability. You'd be better off adapting a pistol to 300 blackout, you could probably just ream the chambers on a 30 Carbine blackout and keep the OAL to 1.75". 308 cases would work fine for 429 bullets but if you make the case any longer that the 1.3" 44 auto mag you're gonna have issues fitting it in a pistol. I do think a 1.5 or 1.55" length case based 308 using 44 bullets would make an interesting thumper round for a AR but you would need to turn the rim down on the case some as a 308s rim is too big to work well with a AR15 bolt.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Using the .308 you would have to use an AR 10 instead of the AR 15. You still could have a pistol with the 1.5 inch case but I think you are right that it might be too long for a semi auto pistol but it wouldn't be too long for a revolver. The 500 S&W' s case is 1.625 inches long and the 460 S&W has a whopping 1.8 inch case.
WestKentucky
Member
Almost no experimentation has been done with .251 bullets for .25acp. Put those 50gr fmj in any other case and make it scream, just don't use a 32 acp as that is a 25naa. Bottleneck a 10mm to .251 and try not to frag the bullet in the barrel.
KansasSasquatch
Member
Using those heavy 6.5mm bullets is probably out of the question. But how about using something along the lines of the 85-100gr bullets. Lop the casing off at the shoulder and neck it down so it'd be more similar to .300blk. I'm just thinking that if they can use 200+gr bullets in .300blk, surely a 90gr 6.5mm bullet would be feasible. I think then it would even be short enough to fit a revolver cylinder, although it'd be about the length of a .460mag cartridge. That might be a fun project. But I don't have any 6.5 bullets or dies laying around to see what that'd look like.Joey,
I can give you an idea of what it will look like:
Pictured above is a 223 case trimmed to 1.750" with a pair of 6.5mm (.264 Dia.) Sierra Match King 142 grain HPBT bullets. Now if we stuff one of those long bullets, the bullet OAL is about 1.390" into that case necked up we get something like this:
The cartridge in the above has an OAL of about 2.600" and remember that is only a 142 grain bullet. The heavier they get the more they grow.
Using the 300 Blackout as a model for OAL the cartridge OAL of a 300 Blackout using a maximum 225 grain bullet is 2.250". That 2.250 is about as good as it gets if this thing is going to fit in a standard AR magazine.
Keep in mind at this point the deeper I shove that skinny bullet into my case the more case volume I give up. The less case volume the less powder capacity. Running short on case capacity pretty quickly and with that possible powder loadings.
By all means you can try it but for the reasons I mention I don't see getting very far.
Ron
I wrote that and then got to thinking, that'd be real similar to 6.5 Grendel. It'd just be based on a .223 casing rather than a x39 casing. Still might be fun. If I ever had an excess of cash.....
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
That is why I was looking at the 125 grain 8MM hpbt bullet it fits the cut off case with almost no shoulder and looks from the images I have seen of it to be a shorter fatter bullet than if you used a .264 or .268 bullet. I use 160 grain bullets when I shoot my 6.5 Carcano. They are .268 bullets that are long soft pointed round nosed bullets, and they have a habit of tumbling when they hit something and you never know where it is going to come out once it hits. I once shot a spiked buck with it once, the round hit just behind the left front shoulder, hit the opposite shoulder and proceeded to play pinball inside the deer. It bounced back breaking one of the left ribs then turned and came out of the rear end right between the two hind quarters of the deer making a hole the size of a tennis ball when it came out. The only meat we could use was the left front shoulder and the two hind quarters the rest of the meat was ether bloodshot or tore to ribbons from that tumbling bullet. Since it was a young deer there wasn't much meat on the ribs but we was able to save the right side ribs and a few of the left side. Everything else got turned into dog food or buried.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
What would happen if you took the cut off 223 case and did a full length resize of it in a 357 maximum die? Would that not make it a straight walled case and be able to headspace off the mouth and then be able to use the larger bullets? That would possibly lower the cost of creating such a round. The AR rifles and pistols could then just need a barrel swap and a gas buffer change I would think. Probably lower the cost on a larger frame revolver too since you could swap out cylinders on a 357 Super Redhawk, Blackhawk , or other type large frame revolvers that were once chambered in the Maximum.
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Jim Watson
Member
Nothing.
A sizing die made for a .379" .357 is not going to even touch a .354" - .376" .223 case.
May I suggest a copy of Cartridges of the World or a loading manual with cartridge dimensions or a download of the SAAMI literature.
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/206.pdf
http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf
It wouldn't do anything to the case a 357 max is .379 a 223 is .376 at the base and .354 at the shoulder.
You can't expand the base of a case. In a semi auto rifle you want a tapered case it helps to eject the case in a revolver too much of it will bind the cylinder.
And Redhawks and SRHs were never chambered in nax the cylinder is too short the Blackhawks had a special long frame but were discontinued and bring crazy money now as collector Items.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
I was thinking that the expander would open it up to the point it would straighten the case pretty much. Was not thinking about it touching the outside of the case. Was also thinking that with the 223 case having a thinner wall it wouldn't push it out as much as it would the maximum case so the 0.003 of an inch bigger base on the maximum wouldn't matter much.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
RC used a magnum die not a maximum die first off, the mag case is 0.315 shorter than the max case which means the depriming/expanding rod is longer too. You would be expanding the case further down the 223 case. But he rod could be changed out for one custom made to expand the full length of the case to 0.376 O.D. The rim diameter is listed as 0.045 so 0.09 total for both sides. The Maximum case thickness is 0.060 per side for total of 0.12. 0.12-0.09 =0.03 that is the total differences in the case sizes O.D. as well. So a rod the same size O.D. as the Maximum rod made to expand the full length of the 223 case should make a straight walled 0.376 inch O.D. case. That would give you an I.D. of 0.367 which is large enough to put a 195 grain 38 S&W bullet if you so desired. Did I say it did be easy? no, did I say you wouldn't have to do some modifications to a die or make one? No Did I say I was designing this to save cost on brass? No. The idea was to be able to make a round that both the cases and bullets were easy to come by or cast if you couldn't buy them at the LGS because they were not available from the factory. An AR type rifle and pistol are a modular type weapons that is easy to convert to other calibers by swapping out components. Have a custom barrel and recoil bushing made for it and you have different gun that fires a heavier bullet that the round is powerful enough to stop a bear if needed but small enough to be used in a handgun as well. That is the goal of this discussion. Not trying to find ways that it will not work out but to find ways that it will work out.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
BTW the 30 caliber M1 carbine cartridges have a taper of 0.020 only 0.002 of an inch difference than the 223 case and it fires in a revolver and is also semi rimmed. So using the 8mm round still is the best bet.
CoalTrain49
Member
Recently I went looking for a SD auto loading carbine good for about 100 yards. I was looking for something with a straight wall case that would be easier to reload than a bottleneck round. The only thing I could find is the 30 carbine. Not a bad little cartridge but it lacks the punch of say a 2000 fps 38 cal. inside 100 yds. The round would have to be rimless, 9x29, 357 auto mag or something like your chopped 223 would be great. If a 5 lb carbine like that existed it would be in my safe right now. The 7.62x39 is close but it's a bottle neck. I just don't see a reason for a rifle cartridge for a light weight carbine with the criteria that I just described.
Until it happens I guess my Inland will have the duty. Someone is missing a marketing opportunity here. Is anyone listening.
Until it happens I guess my Inland will have the duty. Someone is missing a marketing opportunity here. Is anyone listening.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
If my figures are correct the finished round using the 125 grain 8 mm bullet would be a 8 x 36mm round and could be a tampered round.
CoalTrain49
Member
And I would buy the carbine and stack the brass and bullets to the ceiling .
.
buck460XVR
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Kuyong_Chuin
Member
The round would be a tampered round without a shoulder if done right.
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