Your thoughts on wildcat.
- Thread starter Kuyong_Chuin
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buck460XVR
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IMHO, Bullet type is not determined by whether or not the round is fired in a handgun or rifle, but by the purpose and the amount of powder that fits in the case. This is true whether or not you use a .44 mag in a revolver or a carbine, or a 30-06 in a 742 rifle or an Encore pistol. Exceptions would be bullets intended for a tubular magazine and bullets with excellent BC for long range. Problem is, you are not going to get long range from any round that fits in a straight-walled handgun case of the size you are talking. Terminal performance is not determined by the platform fired from, but by the velocity provided by the powder charge. If you are using a straight wall handgun case, most any bullet that will work for a handgun will work for a carbine. The slight increase in velocity from a carbine would not make a rifle bullet with it's thicker jacket perform any better than an appropriate handgun bullet. Increasing the weight of the projectile by using a heavier bullet will only make the projectile slower. Hornady addressed this with it's Levevolution ammo. Trying to make a bullet lighter with a long longer profile using a plastic tip for better BC for use in a carbine. I've tried 'em in my .357 carbines and saw no real difference in performance over conventional .357 bullets of the same quality. Same with .460. The FTX bullets designed to give better BC shot no different that standard XTPs outta a 20'' Encore. While giving a tad more initial velocity, downrange it soon lost any gain to heavier bullets. In 30-30 I seen more of a difference, but then that is a bottle neck rifle case.
I am not criticizing you, nor am I trying to steer you away from your quest. Just giving you things to think about. Most modern wildcat cartridges come from the desire to make a very small bullet go very fast or make a big bullet go faster using high volume rifle type cases. Small capacity handgun cases that hold the volume you are talking are limited to velocity and bullet weights/construction because of the limit of the velocity they produce. The introduction of a powder into them to give you rifle performance, while easy to do in a rife platform, would be difficult at best in a handgun. While a rifle would only need the barrel chambered differently, an autoloader pistol would need a whole new design. An example would be the X-frames designed for .460 and .500 mags. These guns produce rifle type pressures, but are not exactly you grandaddy's six-shooters. Loading the ammo down to fit in available platforms would seem to defeat any real purpose in development.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
I guess I should have been a little more clear when I said 32 caliber. I was talking about bullets in the .320-.330 range, but since that has basically been done already, like I said back to the drawing board. I thought of the 223 because everyone and his neighbor is shooting them so plenty of used brass laying around and since it is a smaller case I it would be easier to fit in a handgun as well. The other parent case I thought might work that is not in the 308 case family is the 7.62 x 39 but I didn't know how easy they are to come by as range pickups and in brass not steel cases.
mokin
Member
Thank you Kuyong for a very interesting conversation.
I have some old Remington 7.62 x 39 brass with small primer pockets but I haven't seen any around for a long time. Also, most of the brass (and steel)cases I find at the range are Berdan primed.
Aside from the primer pocket size, what would be wrong with going with .308 brass?
I have some old Remington 7.62 x 39 brass with small primer pockets but I haven't seen any around for a long time. Also, most of the brass (and steel)cases I find at the range are Berdan primed.
Aside from the primer pocket size, what would be wrong with going with .308 brass?
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
You are welcome.
If you try to keep it fairly straight walled in this case tapered and no shoulder you would have a basically a 44 AMP and those 44 bullets are not cheap.
Why not just go with the 300 Blackout it works pretty well downloaded with a proper gas system, you can use the cheap 30 carbine bullets or even some of the cast bullets for a 30-30. Heck before this last glut there were a lot of cheap 147-150 fmj around.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
300 black out in a handgun? I want a round that can be used in ether a handgun or a long gun. One that we can find components for easily and cheaply and can be used for hunting as well as defence. But also powerful enough to stop anything on the North American continent.
Jim Watson
Member
Rifle, pistol, cheap, easy, stop anything.
That's going to be tough.
That's going to be tough.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Tough but not impossible. The 44 Mag will stop any critter in the U.S. on two or four legs with correct shot placement and round. But the 44 Rem Mag is nether cheap or easy to find range pickups. If you did use one of the .308 family of cases, cut it down to say 1.5 inches and use a .416 400 grain bullet since they are fairly cheap, find the correct powder to use that would have lower case pressures but push the bullet to about about 1400 feet per second, that should do the trick. You would have a bit more case capacity than a 454 Casull, be firing a jacketed bullet that is 5 grains heavier than the largest 395 grain lead bullet the Casull shoots, and you would be using a smaller diameter bullet so you get more speed than the 454. Probably have Taylor K.O. of somewhere in the range of 30 to 35.
Problem is you would have to have a newly designed handgun to shoot them. One in a long gun and one in a handgun. If you did shorten the case up to the same length as the 44 Remington Mag and still use the .416 bullet you would still have more case capacity than the 44 with a smaller but heavier bullet that if you kept the O.A.L. about the same, guns like the 44 Desert Eagle probably could be rebarreled and the action be reworked for the round.Since the D.E. is a gas operated system that would have to be reworked to handle the round if possible. Same goes with the AR 10 rebarreled and the gas system tweaked to handle the proper recoil of the round. If the D.E. couldn't handle the recoil of the round you could have say a Ruger Alaskan rebarreled and rechambered for the round.
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At 50 to 60 dollars for 50 400 gr .416 bullets are significantly more expensive than loaded ammunition for a 44 Mag. Also you are gonna spend thousands to build guns and get special dies to save pennies on brass 
Of course you could just use 308 cases cut to 1.3" and load .429 diameter 44 magnum bullets or cut 308 cases to 1.3" and neck them down to .357 but then you would lose your wildcat status as the 44 auto mag and 357 auto mag have been around for about 40 years.
Of course you could just use 308 cases cut to 1.3" and load .429 diameter 44 magnum bullets or cut 308 cases to 1.3" and neck them down to .357 but then you would lose your wildcat status as the 44 auto mag and 357 auto mag have been around for about 40 years.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
I must have seen the cast bullet that was cheap in .416 it was listed as $0.04 each. For 1000 bullets it was $35.46 You are right the jacketed bullets are way too high. And I think going down to a .410-.411 size bullet would have to have a shoulder .416 was pushing it and even it might have had a slight shoulder. You would need a bullet somewhere in the .423-.430 range to keep from having to have the whole case altered instead of just the neck. If you had a set of dies made to turn it into a straight wall case the largest diameter bullet that could be used would have to be under the size of 0.445.At 50 to 60 dollars for 50 400 gr .416 bullets are significantly more expensive than loaded ammunition for a 44 Mag. Also you are gonna spend thousands to build guns and get special dies to save pennies on brass
Of course you could just use 308 cases cut to 1.3" and load .429 diameter 44 magnum bullets or cut 308 cases to 1.3" and neck them down to .357 but then you would lose your wildcat status as the 44 auto mag and 357 auto mag have been around for about 40 years.
You're not gonna buy 400 gr cast bullets for 4 cents. That's well under the cost for raw lead. I'm betting that was more like 100 for $35.
Yes you can use .429 bullets with a slight taper as I've already said but then IT'S NOT A WILDCAT IT'S A 44 AUTO MAG and is already produced.:banghead:
Yes you can use .429 bullets with a slight taper as I've already said but then IT'S NOT A WILDCAT IT'S A 44 AUTO MAG and is already produced.:banghead:
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Unless it is a typo it list 1000 rounds of Hornady 416 cast gas check for $35.46 which is $0.04 a round. See for yourself here http://www.gunbot.net/reloading/bullets/416cal/You're not gonna buy 400 gr cast bullets for 4 cents. That's well under the cost for raw lead. I'm betting that was more like 100 for $35.
Yes you can use .429 bullets with a slight taper as I've already said but then IT'S NOT A WILDCAT IT'S A 44 AUTO MAG and is already produced.:banghead:
I never said I wanted to make a 44 auto mag and if you read earlier post I said myself that putting in a .430 bullet would be a basically a 44 auto mag. I don't have the dimensions of the auto mag but if the case is the same diameter as the 44 Remington Mag the round made from the 308 cut the same length would still have more case capacity. The 44 Remington Mag has a case O.D. diameter of .457 The 308 case has a O.D. of .470 so cut to the same length and the wall straightened a bit, it would hold more powder. Allot of the bullets I was looking at that were cheaper you couldn't find both rifle and handgun type bullets and the heaviest grain was down to 200 grain.
Jim Watson
Member
That is for the gas check alone. Does not include the bullet. Read what you see.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Stupid search engine was supposed to be pulling up bullets not gas checks.
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Really hard to come up with and develop a good new wildcat round since all of the good ones have been taken. 
During the early 60s a gentleman named Clerke (pronounced Clark) came up with what I saw as a pretty cool round called the .38-45 AUTO. I have a round around here somewhere. There was no shortage of 1911 pistols around in both 45 ACP and the 38 Super round. Clerke necked down a .45 ACP to a .357 case mouth. RCBS still makes the case forming loading dies which can be seen here. Hot little round. The shooter would just do a barrel change on their 45 ACP 1911 using a 38 Super barrel reamed for the new cartridge. Clymer made the reamers. It was a good example of adapting something out there to a new cartridge. The biggest downside to the round was after necking down the 45 ACP you would get around 4 firings and the case necks would split. None the less a hot round for its day. So really when Sig necked down the 40 to develop the 357 Sig it wasn't a new concept or idea. The Clerke round went by a few names, I used the name that RCBS does for the dies.
Years ago I had a strong fascination with the 7.62 X 25 Russian Tokarev as a hot little round pushing 30 caliber bullets.
Ruger has the Blackhawk chambered in the 30 M1 Carbine round. I once had an idea as to necking down a .357 Magnum cartridge to a .30 caliber. That was about 20 years ago. Actually designed the cartridge and had drawings made up. Checked with Clymer for reamers and RCBS for dies. I forget the cost but as I recall it wasn't that bad. The idea was to get an extra cylinder from Ruger for their Blackhawk revolver chambered in 30 Carbine. Unfortunately Ruger won't sell their cylinders and they need fitted by Ruger. So a revolver would need sent to Ruger explaining the cylinder was lost. When the new cylinder was returned in the gun the old cylinder would be reamed for the new cartridge.
In theory it would have been one hot revolver round. I still have a few proto type rounds I made up years ago.
Life got busy and I never pursued it. I wasn't sure how much pressure I could get away with in the Ruger cylinder and frame. The merit was that like the Clerke round most of what was needed was already out there. Someday the old drawings will turn up and who knows, maybe a renewed interest. Wish I hadn't sold the revolver.
Ron
During the early 60s a gentleman named Clerke (pronounced Clark) came up with what I saw as a pretty cool round called the .38-45 AUTO. I have a round around here somewhere. There was no shortage of 1911 pistols around in both 45 ACP and the 38 Super round. Clerke necked down a .45 ACP to a .357 case mouth. RCBS still makes the case forming loading dies which can be seen here. Hot little round. The shooter would just do a barrel change on their 45 ACP 1911 using a 38 Super barrel reamed for the new cartridge. Clymer made the reamers. It was a good example of adapting something out there to a new cartridge. The biggest downside to the round was after necking down the 45 ACP you would get around 4 firings and the case necks would split. None the less a hot round for its day. So really when Sig necked down the 40 to develop the 357 Sig it wasn't a new concept or idea. The Clerke round went by a few names, I used the name that RCBS does for the dies.
Years ago I had a strong fascination with the 7.62 X 25 Russian Tokarev as a hot little round pushing 30 caliber bullets.
Ruger has the Blackhawk chambered in the 30 M1 Carbine round. I once had an idea as to necking down a .357 Magnum cartridge to a .30 caliber. That was about 20 years ago. Actually designed the cartridge and had drawings made up. Checked with Clymer for reamers and RCBS for dies. I forget the cost but as I recall it wasn't that bad. The idea was to get an extra cylinder from Ruger for their Blackhawk revolver chambered in 30 Carbine. Unfortunately Ruger won't sell their cylinders and they need fitted by Ruger. So a revolver would need sent to Ruger explaining the cylinder was lost. When the new cylinder was returned in the gun the old cylinder would be reamed for the new cartridge.
In theory it would have been one hot revolver round. I still have a few proto type rounds I made up years ago.
Life got busy and I never pursued it. I wasn't sure how much pressure I could get away with in the Ruger cylinder and frame. The merit was that like the Clerke round most of what was needed was already out there. Someday the old drawings will turn up and who knows, maybe a renewed interest. Wish I hadn't sold the revolver.
Ron
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Nice picture and information Ron. I think some have missed whatReally hard to come up with and develop a good new wildcat round since all of the good ones have been taken.
During the early 60s a gentleman named Clerke (pronounced Clark) came up with what I saw as a pretty cool round called the .38-45 AUTO. I have a round around here somewhere. There was no shortage of 1911 pistols around in both 45 ACP and the 38 Super round. Clerke necked down a .45 ACP to a .357 case mouth. RCBS still makes the case forming loading dies which can be seen here. Hot little round. The shooter would just do a barrel change on their 45 ACP 1911 using a 38 Super barrel reamed for the new cartridge. Clymer made the reamers. It was a good example of adapting something out there to a new cartridge. The biggest downside to the round was after necking down the 45 ACP you would get around 4 firings and the case necks would split. None the less a hot round for its day. So really when Sig necked down the 40 to develop the 357 Sig it wasn't a new concept or idea. The Clerke round went by a few names, I used the name that RCBS does for the dies.
Years ago I had a strong fascination with the 7.62 X 25 Russian Tokarev as a hot little round pushing 30 caliber bullets.
Ruger has the Blackhawk chambered in the 30 M1 Carbine round. I once had an idea as to necking down a .357 Magnum cartridge to a .30 caliber. That was about 20 years ago. Actually designed the cartridge and had drawings made up. Checked with Clymer for reamers and RCBS for dies. I forget the cost but as I recall it wasn't that bad. The idea was to get an extra cylinder from Ruger for their Blackhawk revolver chambered in 30 Carbine. Unfortunately Ruger won't sell their cylinders and they need fitted by Ruger. So a revolver would need sent to Ruger explaining the cylinder was lost. When the new cylinder was returned in the gun the old cylinder would be reamed for the new cartridge.
In theory it would have been one hot revolver round. I still have a few proto type rounds I made up years ago.
Life got busy and I never pursued it. I wasn't sure how much pressure I could get away with in the Ruger cylinder and frame. The merit was that like the Clerke round most of what was needed was already out there. Someday the old drawings will turn up and who knows, maybe a renewed interest. Wish I hadn't sold the revolver.
Ron
I was trying to accomplish. During this latest shortage we didn't have allot of components to work with, but as long as 223 and 308 family cases were plentiful and you could find a bullet that would fit the cut down case that was was still plentiful even in this time of shortage, you would have a round that you could make that would work in a long gun as well as a handgun. You would want the round to still be powerful enough to stop a large charging bear, moose or any two legged critters that might attack you. If I was just trying to come up with a wildcat, any wildcat, I'd just take a 500 S&W and neck it down to a .458
Reloadron
Contributing Member
Joey, damn as I had intended to put off topic at the beginning of the post and forgot.
The current situation as well as those past have taught many of us to try and maintain a good stock. When it comes to bullets for example I envy those who cast, something over all the years I never got into. In the end it comes down to being able to work with what you have available.
Ron
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Sorry to say but I kind of got hit with the shortage before I got the chance to build up my ammo supply. After our house in MO was broken into years ago and almost all the firearms stolen, they missed a few they didn't find, I didn't own anything more than a 22 Marlin that I bought to replace the stolen one. My ex-wife didn't like guns at all but didn't put up to much of a fight when it came to my 22. After the divorce and I got my disability I have started to build up my battery again. On my limited income my little 22 has been joined by some friends. I pick up 6.5 Carcano Calvary carbine for $10.00. The gun was a bring back from WWII that had once belonged to his Grandfather. The guy didn't know what it shot, had no clips or ammo for it and had it for sale at a yard sale. Next I bought a S&W SW99 in the spring of 2012 which I kept for about two months and traded it for the Ruger. I bought my M 44 Mosin in 2013 after the shortage had already started.Joey, damn as I had intended to put off topic at the beginning of the post and forgot.
The current situation as well as those past have taught many of us to try and maintain a good stock. When it comes to bullets for example I envy those who cast, something over all the years I never got into. In the end it comes down to being able to work with what you have available.
Ron
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
That is just about the same size as an 8mm bullet is it not?Yep!
Probably .338" is the biggest it would work with.
Here is a .223 case cut-off at the shoulder, sized in a .223 die, and necked back up to .357" in a .357 Mag die.
You see the problem?
The I.D. of a cut off case is .328".
The O.D. of the expanded case is .383".
Base of the .223 case I cut was .372".
rc
Unless you think .323 is the same diameter as .338, no.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
RC said the I.D. was .328 which would be close to the .323 8mm round.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Anyone have the I.D. measurements of a .308 cut at the 1.5 inch mark?
KansasSasquatch
Member
If you want a wildcat that uses a .223 casing, maybe cut it off at the shoulder and neck it down to a 6 or 6.5mm. I say cut it and neck it down since you can get fairly heavy 6-6.5mm bullets. If you just tried to neck it up it may be too long for an AR mag which would cut down some of the appeal to many people. This may be something that's already been done, I'm no reloading expert, especially concerning wildcat cartridges. But I do think its a good idea, one I might think about investing in. I know that all during the panic I saw no shortage of 6mm, 6.5mm, .270, or 7mm bullets.
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