CoalTrain49
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Tapered maybe?
Your thoughts on wildcat.
- Thread starter Kuyong_Chuin
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Reloadron
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Kuyong_Chuin
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Thanks Ron, I didn't catch that the auto correct changed what I typed. I wish I could turn the darn thing off.
First off the expander plug is not any longer as they use the same expander for both mag and max and the decaping pin is in the size die.
Rim thickness is not the thickness of the prass at the mouth it's the thickness of the rim at the base of the case. And your math is wrong
.376-.090=.266
The reality is that 357 mag and max case thickness at the mouth is .011 223 case thickness at the mouth is .0145 so if you did blow the case out straight the largest bullet you could use would be .347.
Well go ahead and show me exacticly how this works out.
125gr bullet @ 1500-1600fps isn't exactly what I call bear medicine.
A disgenuine arguement, all components and ammunition is and always has been readily avaliable.
There's is no shortage of 22 ammo, primers or powder you can buy all the 22 ammo you want it just cost $60 a brick.
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buck460XVR
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Yep...my RCBS .357 mag dies also load .38 and .357 max. Only difference is how they are adjusted.
Most folks that come up with a successful wildcat cartridge and the firearm to shoot them in are highly experienced gun builders and/or handloaders. Not only did they see the real need for a niche caliber, they also knew how to do it properly and safely without help with simple basics. I give them all the respect and credit they deserve.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
I did not realize that the depriming pin/expander was made different till I real examined it earlier today. Now using the 223 case and a 125 grain 8 mm round would be moving faster than 1500-1600 fps using the right powder. The M1 30 moves that fast with a 130 grain cast bullet and it is a shorter and smaller round. From comparing other round about the same size but a little shorter I figure you would get about 2000 fps at least possibly more from the lighter 125 grain round.
I wish the case I am playing around with was more readily available. It would be perfect for a multipurpose round. Over all length of about 2.0 inches including the bullet. I see bullet weights ranging from 105 to 200 grain bullets for it. It is easy to resize for the bullet if the case is cut off at the shoulder in fact the O.D. of the case can be sized before cutting it but I think that would be more work. But that whole idea is out because the cases are too hard to come by and the only reason I am playing with this case is the neck is dented to a point it can't be reloaded in the caliber it started as. It was one of my 6.5 Carcano cases, since it can't be reloaded because of the neck damage, I ran the top of the case from the shoulder down a half inch through my 40 die. It makes a very short shoulder to the case and a .400 bullet would fit.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Probably have to use a heavier bullet for bear not the 125 grain one but at 2000 fps with the 125 grain would give you a muzzle energy of around 1110.
Going to a bigger bullet maintaining a usable OAL is going to limit powder capacity. If bullet weight goes up velocity is gonna drop as is energy, there's just no getting around the fact that case capacity is going to end up very close to that of a 357 magnum meaning power is going to be close to that of a 357 magnum.
I'm sorry but your wildcat is a very short sighted answer to the questions you're asking of it.
buck460XVR
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This is a point I tried to make way back in post #27. One is only going to get so much performance outta a handgun caliber case even outta a rifle. Especially when using a relatively small case similar to a .357. If one is reaaly concerned about using the same components for both handgun and rifle they should think more along the lines of still using two different cases and two platforms, while using similar bullets and powder. A handgun chambered to accept a 45-70 case cut down would be something that would seem to be quite easily done. Same bullet, same powders, same primers and even same cases if you cut down your own. You could still have a viable packable/holster-able handgun with handgun performance, but could also have a rifle bear gun with full blown .45-70 loads .
Buck,
45/70 is tapered so if you cut it back to pistol length you'd need to taper it more already done here or blow it out straight and use a bigger bullet again already done here. I vote for that.
The OP's concept works fine with a 308 case as a 44 auto max cutting a 308 at or near the shoulder and sizing it for a .429 bullet, you would need to cut the rim down slightly for use in a AR 15 or mini 14 platform. you wouldn't want to use a AR10 platform because the short OAL would cause feeding problems and it could easily be adapted to an X frame or large BFR frame. If you wanted you could cut them on down to auto mag length and just recut the chamber in a Redhawk or Super Blackhawk 44 mag. You could probably even use auto mag dies for both and just get a spacer for the longer case.
Of course that's a lot of trouble to go to just to use 308 brass when you could just buy a Super Blackhawk and a Rossi 92 and plenty of Buffalobore ammo for what youd spend in R&D on the 44 auto max.
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buck460XVR
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....yeah, the .475 or .480 Ruger is what came to mind at the beginning of this thread. But again, with the custom type propitiatory die the OP is talking about, I figured tightening the shortened case to accept a .458-459 bullet could be done.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
What do you guys think of a 10mm x 42mm with a 200 grain xtp or jsp round?
Well it's still too long for a reasonable handgun, rifle combo. Most guys I know that hunt with large framed BFRs and X frames don't carry a rifle because the size of the handgun is too cumbersome.
And 40 cal handgun bullets are designed for handgun velocities pushing them as hard as you would will cause poor terminal performance.
buck460XVR
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Most I know that hunt with BFRs and X-Frames are also using them for their primary weapon and not a backup....thus no rifle is needed. I have in the past, while carrying my X-Frame in a bandolier holster or with the sling, carried my 1911 in a thigh holster just for ships and giggles.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
When I started this discussion I was thinking rifle style bullets because the velocity issues with trying to push a handgun style bullet over 2k fps. The only XTP style handgun round that will handle that kind of speeds is the XTP Mag line that is only available in a .45 cal bullet that I can see, which is way too large for ether case. I have found molds for cast bullets in the range one would need for a project of this type, and that are the heavy bullets that would be needed to penetrate the big brutes. Problem is I do not know if a cast bullet can be pushed anywhere near the 2k Mark.
I seem to recall way back when the .357 Maximum first came out that someone mentioned the brass was formed from .223 first draw. A straight wall .357 Automag cartridge that would function through an AR action & magazines and which could be reloaded with carbide dies would seem to be a useful cartridge. Probably not enough demand to support it, but it'd be a neat idea.
That'd be a good thing to research.
Whenever you change design parameters you really need to look at possible problem these changes cause if you did you would understand that a straight walled case is going to be problematic to feed in a AR that was designed to feed a tapered case. also with the thickness of a case designed to withstand 60,000 psi you'll still need to lube cases with carbide dies or you'll stick cases.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
I have not started casting yet so that will take some doing on my part. Some of the molds are interesting though, example in 40 cal they have molds ranging from 135 grain all the way up to a 385 grain tapered paper patch round. That round with a 3/4-length jacket added to it in a way that the jacket wouldn't separate from the core and could be fired in a carbine or handgun around the 2k mark would probably devastating to what ever it hit.
It'd take less time and effort to learn about what works and what doesn't by actually reading and studying a little, than you've spent here. There's literally 150 years of cartridge developement to draw from, most everything you can think of has been tried. I mean don't you think if you could use plentiful 223 cases with equally plentiful 9mm or 357 bullets in an AR that it wouldn't already be in mass production?
For the record hard cast water quenched bullets will work to about 1600fps gas checks will get you to 2000 or a little better.
There are plenty of cartridges that will push a 400gr bullet 2000fps. Look them up see what their powder capacity is then look what you have avaliable in a 6.5 case. It's not magic or rocket science it follows pretty simple physics.
For the record hard cast water quenched bullets will work to about 1600fps gas checks will get you to 2000 or a little better.
There are plenty of cartridges that will push a 400gr bullet 2000fps. Look them up see what their powder capacity is then look what you have avaliable in a 6.5 case. It's not magic or rocket science it follows pretty simple physics.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
The fired 6.5mm case must have pushed the shoulder forward some or the specs in the manual is off some. The manual shows 1.622 inches from the base of the shoulder to the end of the case at the rim. After cutting this case off at the shoulder and running a 40 die a half inch down the case it is 1.640 inches long. To see about how much room you would have in the case after seating a bullet all the way to the bottom of that 1/2 inch section, I filled the case up to the start of the small shoulder the die created with longshot powder. I then dumped the powder into my powder tray and weighed the results. I had exactly 26 grains of powder in the case that I put back into my container. So 26 grains of Longshot x 0.0824 VMD = 2.1424 CC' s of usefully powder capacity. Having trouble finding what the case is pressure checked to, is is not listed in the data for t in the Lee manual and is not listed at all in the Lyman manual. Still researching for future use for other rounds since I would never use this case as a parent case because they are hard to come by. Still like playing around with it.
Kuyong_Chuin
Member
Anyone know where I might find the Maximum pressure information for the 6.5 Carcano case?
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