Forged upper exploding into "shards" as opposed to chunks with billet upper?

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Having the grain follow the shape of the part lends strength to it. For example Boeing was trying to make a windscreen frame for one of their commercial airliners out of billet because it was easy to machine. The frame kept cracking where the machining interrupted the grain. Casting didn't work either. It wasn't until they forged it so the grain flowed around with the shape of the frame that they got it to work.

It's like wood. Cut a frame out of a single piece of wood and the frame will crack along the grain where it was was interrupted by the cut.
Right, but in that case it was likely done in a multi strike die that actually progressively moves material to created the grain structure as you say. A forged AR upper starts out as a round bar aluminum that is struck once and there is almost zero control of the flow of material and thus creation of useful grain structure. Yes forging can be used as you state but that take quiet a bit more planing and work than is involved in the simple single strike forging used to forge an AR upper. It all about quick cheap net shape.
 
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Right, but in that case it was likely done in a multi strike die that actually progressively moves material to created the grain structure as you say. A forged AR upper starts out as a round bar aluminum that is struck once in and there is almost zero control of the flow of material and thus creation of useful grain structure. Yes forging can be used as you state but that take quiet a bit more planing and work than is involved in the simple single strike forging used to forge an AR upper. It all about quick cheap net shape.
Still and all, testing has shown that forged receivers resist flexing better than billet.

Forged receivers are lighter weight, cost less and are stiffer.
 
The way they forge AR uppers only forges the net outer shape. The inside is all milled out anyway. Any difference in strength is going to be due to the heat treatment and material used more so than the manufacturing method.
 
Ultimately, there have been enough OOB’s which have destroyed AR uppers to prove this “forged —> shards, Billet —> chunks” claim is wholly BS.

The guy heard something once which sounded cool, and he locked it away so he could sound smart someday. Unfortunately, it’s a false factoid, and he sounded dumb instead.
 
Having the grain follow the shape of the part lends strength to it. For example Boeing was trying to make a windscreen frame for one of their commercial airliners out of billet because it was easy to machine. The frame kept cracking where the machining interrupted the grain. Casting didn't work either. It wasn't until they forged it so the grain flowed around with the shape of the frame that they got it to work..

No doubt what you say is true. However look at enough metallurgy books and you will see that designing a forged part that will have the desired grain structure in the location you want, is not easy. Nor cheap.

Based on my own research, Stoner designed his weapon on a shoe string budget, and he designed it to be cheap to fabricate. I wish I knew the fabrication processes he intended, because that would be interesting. A gun designer friend of mine claimed that standard tooling could be used to fabricate the AR15, whereas the M1 Garand and M14 required lots and lots of special cutters and tooling, because John Garand was a tool and die maker. So, when Mr Garand thought of a gun part, he also thought up a cutter and tool, but those things were unique to his firearm and had to be custom made. The fabrication cost advantage for AR's was and is always going to be better than for M1's and M1a's.
 
Now it's looking like my co-worker meant to say the BCG.

Does THIS sound right??

Forged BCG splintering during a kaboom vs billet BCG breaking off into chunks???
Almost every barrel extension, AR bolt and carrier are machined from bar stock. I don't know of any that are forged and none that are cast.

The design was optimized to use bar stock as it streamlines the production.

As to uppers and lowers, it makes little difference. Wear eye protection.
 
No doubt what you say is true. However look at enough metallurgy books and you will see that designing a forged part that will have the desired grain structure in the location you want, is not easy. Nor cheap.

Based on my own research, Stoner designed his weapon on a shoe string budget, and he designed it to be cheap to fabricate. I wish I knew the fabrication processes he intended, because that would be interesting. A gun designer friend of mine claimed that standard tooling could be used to fabricate the AR15, whereas the M1 Garand and M14 required lots and lots of special cutters and tooling, because John Garand was a tool and die maker. So, when Mr Garand thought of a gun part, he also thought up a cutter and tool, but those things were unique to his firearm and had to be custom made. The fabrication cost advantage for AR's was and is always going to be better than for M1's and M1a's.
The barrel extension is turned on a lathe, then the locking lugs are broached in a single pass. It's quick, easy and inexpensive. There are a few grinding operations done after heat treating.

The bolt was designed to be made largely the same way with follow on end mill operations to cut the extractor, ejector and cam pin features. However, with modern 9-axis machining centers, the whole operation is done by turning and milling. A good machining center can turn out a bolt, ready for heat treating in about 10 minutes. Again, post heat treat grinding to clean up some of the tighter tolerances.

The carrier is also intended to be largely a turning with subsequent end mill operations, but also has two horizontal mill profile cuts. Again and modern machining center can do the whole thing in a single operation. after hardening some honing of some of the bores is required.

Since these all start in a lathe the use of round bar stock makes these relatively inexpensive, even with 1950 machining processes.

The only reason the upper and lower are forged are to get them to net shape quickly and cheaply. The loads on the upper and lower are such that forging doesn't add anything strength wise that billet couldn't handle.

And oddly enough the only steel part on an AR that is forged is also forge for net shape, not strength, the front sight base. It's made from plain 1137 carbon steel, not really a super strong steel at around HB 300.
 
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Nobody knows everything about anything...

Just depends on the amount of confidence attached to certain claims.

I hope you treated him kindly when you discussed it the second go-around. Remember, it's easy for him to feel attacked since you basically have the whole internet insulting him.
 
<rambling>
Forging aluminum is primarily a cheap way to quickly get a rough shape. The gains in yield strength of forge aluminum are marginal at best compared to properly heat treated billets. A piece of forged 7075 is going to have roughly the same yield strength as 7075-T651 heat treated billet, but the forging is only going to have that yield strength in locations and directions where there was enough material movement during the forging process to produce that much work hardening. The heat treated billet will be that strong uniformly throughout the material in all directions. It all about cheap net-shape and not material properties when forging aluminum in most cases.

As far as reducing fragments during a self disassembly event, aluminium is always going to fail as a ductile metal no mater how "hard" you try to make it. There will be no substantial fragmentation difference between a forge or billet aluminum of the same alloy. Cast aluminum will likely produce a bit more fragments but again it is still a fairly ductile metal.

Now with steel this become a more interesting discussion.
</rambling>


This post still rules the thread. :thumbup:
 
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I don’t know if some of the theories presented in the preceding posts are true or not. I do know that in working on forged lowers and billet lowers the forged ones seem stronger.
I have a lot of experience building high performance engines and parts such as connecting rods, forged aluminum pistons, and forged crankshafts are much stronger and more durable. Forgings tend to bend before they break. I guess I would have to put each of them in a vise and see which one breaks first. Put me down for believing the forgings are better.
 
A Note on forged aluminum vs forged steel.

Generally, steel forgings are more expensive than castings by a good margin, and depending on the shape of the part can be the same cost as billet. Forging steel is hard on the dies and requires a big press, and a good size furnace, the cost of forging compared to the cost of whittling away everything that doesn't look like your part with a saw, profile mill, or end mill and the tooling that will get used up is equal to forging for some given production figure. So, below that number, it is best to go with machining from billet.

Generally, aluminum forgings cheaper in the long run than billet, and aluminum castings have very different mechanical properties from billet, extrusion or forged aluminum, so are a class all to themselves. Aluminum forgings do not require as much energy, so a smaller press can be used and the dies last much longer. The result is the break even number for forging is much lower, which is why they show up more often than billet aluminum parts, unless the production run is very very small.

As far as engine parts, I would figure forged pistons would be much cheaper than billet pistons, given the amount of material that would have to be removed, and thus be the preferred method of manufacture.

And, to address that age old, often fought over argument - forging vs [casting/billet]:

Firstly, it depends how you define strength. If you strictly mean ultimate or yield strength (or even stiffness, aka modulus of elasticity) under a single loading, then all materials of equal hardness and alloy (forged vs. machined from solid, vs machined from cast, with the exception of aluminum which has different properties if cast) will behave effectively the same, and have the same stiffness, yield strength, and ultimate strength. (And density, forging will not change the density of the material. That is a myth) This is because these are strictly a function of the strength of the bonds between atoms in the crystal lattice, and the ability of dislocations to propagate through the lattice (at yield). Dislocation propagation is a function of the dislocations already in the material, and the frequency and size of various impurity precipitates (alloying elements) within the lattice. It is not a function of grain structure.

However, if you are talking about fatigue strength under cyclic loading (such as found in a con-rod), then this is an issue of crack propagation, not crystalline structure or bond strength. Crack propagation is a messy field that I don't understand well, but in general I understand that they most easily propagate along grain boundaries. Hence, a forging which orients grain boundaries perpendicular to the load should demonstrate improved resistance to crack propagation (read: improved fatigue strength) as compared with a material which has isotopic grain structure (such as a casting). But you don't get something for nothing. Forgings show improvement these improvements in the longitudinal direction, but also show a decrease in the short transverse direction.

Now, billet steel or aluminum is rolled or extruded which will give it an elongated grain structure like a forging, so the properties not uniform in the longitudinal and transverse directions. How you layout the part on the billet matters.

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No doubt what you say is true. However look at enough metallurgy books and you will see that designing a forged part that will have the desired grain structure in the location you want, is not easy. Nor cheap.

Based on my own research, Stoner designed his weapon on a shoe string budget, and he designed it to be cheap to fabricate. I wish I knew the fabrication processes he intended, because that would be interesting. A gun designer friend of mine claimed that standard tooling could be used to fabricate the AR15, whereas the M1 Garand and M14 required lots and lots of special cutters and tooling, because John Garand was a tool and die maker. So, when Mr Garand thought of a gun part, he also thought up a cutter and tool, but those things were unique to his firearm and had to be custom made. The fabrication cost advantage for AR's was and is always going to be better than for M1's and M1a's.

There is also substantial differences in machining technology today than when the M1 was designed and produced. Back in the M1 garand's day there was no such thing as CNC machining so when you needed to create a certain cut on a part they would design and setup a single machine just to make that one cut, then the part would move to the next machine to perform the next cut, and so on. Because of this they would have to have an enormous amount of machines to complete a production line, and each machine would have to have its own fixturing. Now with todays cnc technology you can put a part in one machine and perform several cuts all programmed into the machine and even switch cutters and rotate the part with 4th and 5th axis's without removing the part from the machine. And of course aluminum is much faster to mill and easier on tooling. If one set out to build a million m1 garands today it would be much easier to do so than it was in 1934, and likewise if you were setting up to build an AR15 in 1934 you would have to set up a huge amount of special tooling to do so. The AR15 does definitively have simpler and less cuts to be made and less components to be made than a garand though.
 
The way they forge AR uppers only forges the net outer shape. The inside is all milled out anyway. Any difference in strength is going to be due to the heat treatment and material used more so than the manufacturing method.

This is not entirely true.

Every metal, and every alloy of metals, has their own unique physical characteristics right down to the atomic crystalline level.

Forging does indeed affect internal crystalline structure...and this does have an effect on the overall physical properties of the metal/alloy as a result. Sometimes a very dramatic effect, depending on the metal/alloy and the forging techniques used.

Physical manipulation of metals can cause allotropic transformations (changes in crystaline structure) which radically alter appearance, strength, density, hardness, and even nuclear characteristics.

So it's more than just an external appearance thing.

Examples?

Graphite, diamonds, and charcoal are all allotropes of carbon.

Allotropic transformation of Plutonium 239 under pressure from delta phase (less dense, face centered cubic crystalline structure) to alpha phase (denser simple monoclinic crystalline structure) is the key to utilizing Plutonium in nuclear weapons.

Forging techniques in steel alloys can create point defects in the crystaline structure which radically alter the base alloy's fracture toughness.
 
There is also substantial differences in machining technology today than when the M1 was designed and produced. Back in the M1 garand's day there was no such thing as CNC machining so when you needed to create a certain cut on a part they would design and setup a single machine just to make that one cut, then the part would move to the next machine to perform the next cut, and so on. Because of this they would have to have an enormous amount of machines to complete a production line, and each machine would have to have its own fixturing. Now with todays cnc technology you can put a part in one machine and perform several cuts all programmed into the machine and even switch cutters and rotate the part with 4th and 5th axis's without removing the part from the machine. And of course aluminum is much faster to mill and easier on tooling. If one set out to build a million m1 garands today it would be much easier to do so than it was in 1934, and likewise if you were setting up to build an AR15 in 1934 you would have to set up a huge amount of special tooling to do so. The AR15 does definitively have simpler and less cuts to be made and less components to be made than a garand though.

Pictures from Springfield Armory historical site are interesting. Look at the leather belt running from the ceiling.

oof1tIG.jpg

So many people project back today's technology, they literally think the Kaiser had a cell phone. Recently I heard that one Medieval based movie, the character's were handing out hand bills. About 300 years before the printing press was invented! I do think many believe the black and white retrospective moments you see in movies, are real. That is, Alexander the Great had a movie camera!

I am aware that post WW2 that considerations of simple weapon construction and a reduction of strategic material use became much more important. Lots of ships filled with nickel, copper, vanadium, cobalt, diamonds, etc, were sunk by submarines. Germany and Japan ran out of people and weapons. Last ditch weapons were developed so the front line solider had something better than rocks and sticks to toss at the enemy. I don't own a Japanese last ditch, but they were very crude. I have a slave labor K98 sold to Israel and converted to 308 Win. The metal work looks like it was chewed out of bar stock by angry beavers. And it never fed correctly.

I consider this an outstanding example of a weapon designed for fast, cheap production.

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The receiver is a stamping, which is welded together. Takes a less skilled person to do welding than machining. The designers limited the amount of high alloy steels, the locking mechanism is one of the few parts that requires alloy steels.

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I have a picture somewhere of a M1a forging billet. The whole thing is 8620, and most of it is milled away and goes into the trash. That is very expensive, but typical of weapon design up to WW2. The stuff was built to last, and expensive to build.

I think the winners in expensive weapons are the Swiss.

built like a Swiss watch

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This is not entirely true.

Every metal, and every alloy of metals, has their own unique physical characteristics right down to the atomic crystalline level.

Forging does indeed affect internal crystalline structure...and this does have an effect on the overall physical properties of the metal/alloy as a result. Sometimes a very dramatic effect, depending on the metal/alloy and the forging techniques used.

Physical manipulation of metals can cause allotropic transformations (changes in crystaline structure) which radically alter appearance, strength, density, hardness, and even nuclear characteristics. [1]

So it's more than just an external appearance thing.

Examples?

Graphite, diamonds, and charcoal are all allotropes of carbon.

Allotropic transformation of Plutonium 239 under pressure from delta phase (less dense, face centered cubic crystalline structure) to alpha phase (denser simple monoclinic crystalline structure) is the key to utilizing Plutonium in nuclear weapons.

Forging techniques in steel alloys can create point defects in the crystaline structure which radically alter the base alloy's fracture toughness.
1) NO! FORGING OF STEEL DOES NOT CAUSE ALLOTROPIC CHANGES IN STEEL. All forging or rolling is carried out while the steel is austenitic. You ain't got a drop hammer big enough to cause an allotropic transformation in steel through beating on it.

Heating and re-heating steel is how allotropic transformations are made in steel and most metals , aka heat treating.

2) As noted in post #39, not all properties are altered due to forging, and not all properties increase due to forging, some decrease.
 
1) NO! FORGING OF STEEL DOES NOT CAUSE ALLOTROPIC CHANGES IN STEEL. All forging or rolling is carried out while the steel is austenitic. You ain't got a drop hammer big enough to cause an allotropic transformation in steel through beating on it.

Heating and re-heating steel is how allotropic transformations are made in steel and most metals , aka heat treating.

2) As noted in post #39, not all properties are altered due to forging, and not all properties increase due to forging, some decrease.

My mistake. Thank you for the collection.
 
lysanderxiii is exactly correct that heating to above a certain critical temperature, followed by cooling (quenching) at a particular rate determines the grain or crystal structures of various steels, not the degree of hot or cold work (forging).

A separate heating process, called stress relieving, raises the steel in a finished piece to a temperature BELOW the critical temperature for that alloy, holds it there for a certain time, and then allows it to cool at a certain rate. Stress relief reduces high local stresses caused by processes like welding and forging, but doesn't generally change grain structure.

If stress relieving is extended, grain size grows, and the mechanical properties of the steel change. This is called tempering. Tempered steel is typically softer (has a lower yield strength) and is less likely to crack (greater toughness).

Allotropic transformation of Plutonium 239 under pressure from delta phase (less dense, face centered cubic crystalline structure) to alpha phase (denser simple monoclinic crystalline structure) is the key to utilizing Plutonium in nuclear weapons.

I had no idea that the grain structure of plutonium was key to using that element as fuel for a nuclear weapon. That's not something taught in a typical metallurgy course...amazing what one can learn here.
 
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lysanderxiii is exactly correct that heating to above a certain critical temperature, followed by cooling (quenching) at a particular rate determines the grain or crystal structures of various steels, not the degree of hot or cold work (forging).

A separate heating process, called stress relieving, raises the steel in a finished piece to a temperature BELOW the critical temperature for that alloy, holds it there for a certain time, and then allows it to cool at a certain rate. Stress relief reduces high local stresses caused by processes like welding and forging, but doesn't generally change grain structure.

If stress relieving is extended, grain size grows, and the mechanical properties of the steel change. This is called tempering. Tempered steel is typically softer (has a lower yield strength) and is less likely to crack (greater toughness).

I had no idea that the grain structure of plutonium was key to using that element as fuel for a nuclear weapon. That's not something taught in a typical metallurgy course...amazing what one can learn here.

Like I said to his post earlier...I stand corrected!

Plutonium is a special case and has 6 naturally occurring allotropes. There is a 7th, which only exists in a narrow pressure range at a high temperature.

The nuclear characteristics of Plutonium do not lend itself to a weapon design like Uranium-235. This is because the assembly time of the "gun design" is far too slow. The nuclear chain reaction would start too soon during the assembly phase of the subcritical masses and generate too much energy too soon, resulting in destruction of the core before you could get an explosive release.

This is why implosion was researched and developed.

Keep in mind that the goal is to get enough fissile material in a small enough space to induce a nuclear chain reaction...and then hold it together long enough to generate enough reactions to create a significant release of energy. It's a function of mass and geometry.

The many allotropes of Plutonium were discovered when the physical, chemical, and nuclear properties were being researched and plays a crucial role.

The reason why Plutonium works in an implosion design is due to several processes which happen at the same time when they use shaped explosive lensing to compress a Plutonium sphere (it's not as solid sphere, by the way).

First, there's the physical collapse of a hollow sphere into a solid sphere. This jams a given mass of Plutonium from a subcritical geometry into a supercritical geometry.

However, the Plutonium used in the hollow sphere is a lower density allotrope (delta phase, 15.92 g/cm3).

Under the temperature/pressure conditions induced during the implosion process, the Plutonium shifts to alpha phase (19.86 g/cm3).

That's nearly a 25% increase in density. So you have two factors here working towards a nuclear yield: a rapid change in geometry to one which better supports supercriticality, and a rapid increase in metallic density, contributing towards a supercritical mass.

There's a bit more to the design...like the core of the Plutonium sphere is not empty. They put a "pit" inside which, once compressed together, generates an initial neuron release to ensure detonation. And they use tampers and reflectors for other reasons.

But this allotropic phase transition is crucial to the functionality of the weapon.

It's absolutely fascinating!

Maybe some other time and place I'll cover how our first hydrogen bomb (Ivy Mike) was designed. Out of about a 10 megaton yield, care to guess how much was due to fission and how much due to fusion?

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, we were talking about forging AR-15 billets somewhere I think... I've lost track!

:D:D:D
 
The nuclear characteristics of Plutonium do not lend itself to a weapon design like Uranium-235. This is because the assembly time of the "gun design" is far too slow. The nuclear chain reaction would start too soon during the assembly phase of the subcritical masses and generate too much energy too soon, resulting in destruction of the core before you could get an explosive release.


This was the Plutonium bomb,casing one big, badda, boom!

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Just under a 1/4 was fusion.

But, cryogenic bombs are impractical, even if they made a few.

Back on the original subject of forged vs billet aluminum AR receivers (uppers and lowers) There is not any practical strength difference. The grain structure is not that altered in those forging shapes.

Bingo!

Approximately 80% of the energy release was due to fission. Fast fission of the U-238 cylindrical tamper, to be specific, which was caused by the massive release of neutrons from the fusion process.
 
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