It has come to my attention that Condition 2 Carry (hammer down on a loaded chamber) is more dangerous than Condition 0 Carry (cocked with safety off). If this true? If so, can somebody explain why/how so?
1911 : Condition 0 vs Condition 2
- Thread starter Alan Fud
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Less safe then cocked and the safety off?
Yikes!
Unlike cocked & unlocked condition 0:
There is no danger at all with the hammer down against the slide.
Condition 2 is only more dangerous if your thumb slips off the hammer with the trigger pulled while de-cocking or cocking it.
The inertia firing pin is shorter then the hole through the slide, and the firing pin cannot contact the primer unless the hammer hits it with a running head start.
Under no circumstances is a 1911 safe with the hammer on the Intercept notch. (Erroneously called the Safety notch or Half-cock notch)
In that position, the hammer is not protected by the grip safety tang, and a blow to the hammer could cause parts damage and the gun could fire.
rc
Yikes!
Unlike cocked & unlocked condition 0:
There is no danger at all with the hammer down against the slide.
Condition 2 is only more dangerous if your thumb slips off the hammer with the trigger pulled while de-cocking or cocking it.
The inertia firing pin is shorter then the hole through the slide, and the firing pin cannot contact the primer unless the hammer hits it with a running head start.
Under no circumstances is a 1911 safe with the hammer on the Intercept notch. (Erroneously called the Safety notch or Half-cock notch)
In that position, the hammer is not protected by the grip safety tang, and a blow to the hammer could cause parts damage and the gun could fire.
rc
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NJGunOwner81
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Ooo!
Ooo, I actually think I know the answer to this question!!!
Because for a 1911 to have a round in the chamber with the hammer down it would mean that you had to rack the slide and manually let the hammer down.
Now, should your finger slip off the hammer as your letting it down it could hit the pin with enough force to trigger the round which would go who knows where AND the bullet firing would mean the action of the slide would happen meaning that your hand that was right on the hammer would be bashed by the slide as the gun cycled!
I THINK that it why a condition 2 is considered dangerous ... if I am wrong somebody PLEASE speak up and correct me!
NJGunOwner81
Ooo, I actually think I know the answer to this question!!!
Because for a 1911 to have a round in the chamber with the hammer down it would mean that you had to rack the slide and manually let the hammer down.
Now, should your finger slip off the hammer as your letting it down it could hit the pin with enough force to trigger the round which would go who knows where AND the bullet firing would mean the action of the slide would happen meaning that your hand that was right on the hammer would be bashed by the slide as the gun cycled!
I THINK that it why a condition 2 is considered dangerous ... if I am wrong somebody PLEASE speak up and correct me!
NJGunOwner81
I don't know that one is more dangerous than the other. Each has its own particular risks, and neither is a good way to carry or maintain a 1911 ready for possible action.
Condition 0
With condition 0, the sear is not locked by the thumb safety. So if the trigger is pressed while the grip safety is disengaged (or if it's non-functional or defective), the gun will fire. And since the sear is not locked, and depending on the condition of the sear nose and/or the hammer hook, a sharp blow or the gun being drop could possible cause the hammer to drop and the gun to fire. So the principal danger with condition 0 is an ND.
Condition 2
To place the gun in condition 2, the hammer must be lowered from cocked with a round in the chamber. If the hammer slips while doing so, an ND is possible. It is possible with care and attention to lower the hammer with reasonable safety, especially in 1911s with a firing pin block; but a visit from Mr. Murphy is always a possibility and should always be a concern. And I recall having read reports of NDs occurring while placing a 1911 in condition 2.
In addition, if a 1911 is in condition 2, in order to use it for, for example, in self defense, it must be cocked. IME and IMO cocking the hammer of 1911 with one hand is not a particular easy or quick action. Some folks can do it, but how well and how consistently while under extreme stress? If the hammer slips while cocking it, you might not have an ND, but you will have a useless gun until you can finally get the hammer cocked. In my Cowboy Action Shooting days, I saw enough folks short stroke their hogslegs while cocking them (and single action revolvers are much easier to thumb cock) to be disinclined to want to try thumb cocking my 1911 under stress.
A 1911 in condition 2 may be cocked quickly with the weak hand, but that assumes that one has both hands available. I'm a strong believe in the proposition that one should be able to deploy his sidearm with one hand in an emergency. I personally am unwilling to count on having both hands available.
So the dangers of a 1911 in condition 2 are an ND when placing it in condition 2 or not being able to get the gun into play quickly enough in a life threatening emergency.
Conclusion
I carry a 1911 in condition 1.
Condition 0
With condition 0, the sear is not locked by the thumb safety. So if the trigger is pressed while the grip safety is disengaged (or if it's non-functional or defective), the gun will fire. And since the sear is not locked, and depending on the condition of the sear nose and/or the hammer hook, a sharp blow or the gun being drop could possible cause the hammer to drop and the gun to fire. So the principal danger with condition 0 is an ND.
Condition 2
To place the gun in condition 2, the hammer must be lowered from cocked with a round in the chamber. If the hammer slips while doing so, an ND is possible. It is possible with care and attention to lower the hammer with reasonable safety, especially in 1911s with a firing pin block; but a visit from Mr. Murphy is always a possibility and should always be a concern. And I recall having read reports of NDs occurring while placing a 1911 in condition 2.
In addition, if a 1911 is in condition 2, in order to use it for, for example, in self defense, it must be cocked. IME and IMO cocking the hammer of 1911 with one hand is not a particular easy or quick action. Some folks can do it, but how well and how consistently while under extreme stress? If the hammer slips while cocking it, you might not have an ND, but you will have a useless gun until you can finally get the hammer cocked. In my Cowboy Action Shooting days, I saw enough folks short stroke their hogslegs while cocking them (and single action revolvers are much easier to thumb cock) to be disinclined to want to try thumb cocking my 1911 under stress.
A 1911 in condition 2 may be cocked quickly with the weak hand, but that assumes that one has both hands available. I'm a strong believe in the proposition that one should be able to deploy his sidearm with one hand in an emergency. I personally am unwilling to count on having both hands available.
So the dangers of a 1911 in condition 2 are an ND when placing it in condition 2 or not being able to get the gun into play quickly enough in a life threatening emergency.
Conclusion
I carry a 1911 in condition 1.
And my point is that there's really no good basis upon which to declare one inherently "safer" than the other. Each presents its own particular risks. Which is safer: running over broken ground with a sharp knife and your shoelaces untied, or skating on thin ice?Alan Fud said:
I suppose that one could argue that condition 0 is safer insofar as the risks associated with condition 0 are more fully within the control of the user. Thus by assuring that your 1911 grip safety is fully functional and in good repair, by assuring that the sear nose and hammer hook are in good condition and properly and securely mated, carrying your 1911 in a secure holster with the trigger covered, you can minimize the factors that cause condition 0 to be a risky proposition.
On the other hand, you don't have control of how an emergency might occur.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Are we confusing Condition 0, (loaded with the safety off), with condition 1, Cocked & Locked, or Condition 2 hammer down on a loaded chamber?
Only a fool would go around with a holstered Condition 0 cocked & loaded 1911 with the thumb safety off!
When you go to Condition 0, the gun damn well better be in your hand ready to shoot it.
rc
Only a fool would go around with a holstered Condition 0 cocked & loaded 1911 with the thumb safety off!
When you go to Condition 0, the gun damn well better be in your hand ready to shoot it.
rc
possum
Member
personally i believe that you should carry the way that the gun was designed to be carried.
putting the hammer down on a loaded chamber is dangerous for sure, that is the first issue, secondly, the time, and manipulation that you would have to use to get the hammer back in a dynamic critical incident would either cause you time, or to shift your hand out if firing position, you would have to reaquire your grio etc. which is lossing you time even more. i see no plus side to the above. it might be "safer" to have the hammer down, however the only to accomplish that is very unsafe.
lots of people believe in the mag full, no round in the chamber too, in which case you would have to rack the slide to get the tool into the fight. have you ever heard of the Tueller drill, good luck clearing leather(or kydex) and getting on target before the assaliant is all over you and knuckle deep with his blade. much less having to draw, rack and then go to work. people aren't as fast as they think they are.
putting the hammer down on a loaded chamber is dangerous for sure, that is the first issue, secondly, the time, and manipulation that you would have to use to get the hammer back in a dynamic critical incident would either cause you time, or to shift your hand out if firing position, you would have to reaquire your grio etc. which is lossing you time even more. i see no plus side to the above. it might be "safer" to have the hammer down, however the only to accomplish that is very unsafe.
lots of people believe in the mag full, no round in the chamber too, in which case you would have to rack the slide to get the tool into the fight. have you ever heard of the Tueller drill, good luck clearing leather(or kydex) and getting on target before the assaliant is all over you and knuckle deep with his blade. much less having to draw, rack and then go to work. people aren't as fast as they think they are.
Diamondback6
Member
Speaking for myself as a southpaw occasionally stuck with non-ambi's, the only way mine ever will go to C-0 without immediate intent to fire is if it's a non-ambi and I believe an "imminent threat" situation to be developing--even then, as it comes off I will be attempting to get me and mine out of there, and as soon as I/mine has eithter extracted from or deescalated the situation, it goes right back to C-1.
Condition 2 is a totally safe form of carry for an original 1911 with a spur hammer. No less safer than cocking or decocking a revolver. The problem with C2 comes into play with bobbed or commander type hammers, the shape of the hammer could lead to your thumb slipping of the hammer.
All my 1911 have wide spur hammers, I can cock it as fast as and as safe as any revolver. I have also Carried my 1911 in C1 and had the thumb safety come off. Now normally this would not be a problem, but due to the way I carry it is very easy to dis ingage the grip safety when I sit down( Small of my back carry) this would leave a loaded gun with no safety what so ever pointed at my ars!!! not really like'n the idea of shooting my self in the butt so most of the time I carry in C2. But I did grow up shooting single action revolvers so there is no danger for me cocking and decocking. Cocking on the draw is second nature to me.
NO ONE can say for sure how the 1911 was ment to be carried, unless they personally knew John Browning from 1900 to 1906.
But one could safely say that the gun maybe carried safely many differant was. C1, C2 C3
All my 1911 have wide spur hammers, I can cock it as fast as and as safe as any revolver. I have also Carried my 1911 in C1 and had the thumb safety come off. Now normally this would not be a problem, but due to the way I carry it is very easy to dis ingage the grip safety when I sit down( Small of my back carry) this would leave a loaded gun with no safety what so ever pointed at my ars!!! not really like'n the idea of shooting my self in the butt so most of the time I carry in C2. But I did grow up shooting single action revolvers so there is no danger for me cocking and decocking. Cocking on the draw is second nature to me.
NO ONE can say for sure how the 1911 was ment to be carried, unless they personally knew John Browning from 1900 to 1906.
But one could safely say that the gun maybe carried safely many differant was. C1, C2 C3
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Vern Humphrey
Member
Not quite. The ergonometrics of the M1911 make for a difficult handhold while decocking one-handed -- you have to hold the hammer with your thumb, depress the grip safety with the ham of your hand, and pull the trigger with your forefinger. Murphy is looking over your shoulder as you do this.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
No, you don't.
You can de-cock a standard 1911 by thumbing the hammer back until the hammer spur depresses the grip safety tang.
Then pull the trigger and lower the hammer.
There is no need atall to use the "ham of your hand" to depress the grip safety.
The hammer spur does it nicely.
rc
You can de-cock a standard 1911 by thumbing the hammer back until the hammer spur depresses the grip safety tang.
Then pull the trigger and lower the hammer.
There is no need atall to use the "ham of your hand" to depress the grip safety.
The hammer spur does it nicely.
rc
The 1911 platform is carried in condition 1 because that is the quickest way to get it into action if needed for self defense and is relatively safe from inadvertent discharge. It requires the least fine motor skills in manipulating the pistol to make it ready to fire.
Any one who says that condition 1 is safer than condition 2 or 3 for simple transportation of the handgun is deluding themselves.
De-cocking or cocking any single action pistol is done safely by keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, just as making the pistol safe when removing the safety in condition 1 to clear the action. To say that somehow making a condition 2 pistol ready to fire is less safe than holding a ready to fire condition 0 pistol is absurd.
Any one who says that condition 1 is safer than condition 2 or 3 for simple transportation of the handgun is deluding themselves.
De-cocking or cocking any single action pistol is done safely by keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction, just as making the pistol safe when removing the safety in condition 1 to clear the action. To say that somehow making a condition 2 pistol ready to fire is less safe than holding a ready to fire condition 0 pistol is absurd.
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Thanks RCMODEL, I was just going to say the same thing!
There are many ways to decock a 1911 safely I useually use 2 hands, but I have been known to use one. After all its no differant than any other hammered firearm.
I dont know how the 1911 ever got its reputation of being dangerious to de-cock, but you decock the hammer the same as any other firearm with a hammer.
There are many ways to decock a 1911 safely I useually use 2 hands, but I have been known to use one. After all its no differant than any other hammered firearm.
I dont know how the 1911 ever got its reputation of being dangerious to de-cock, but you decock the hammer the same as any other firearm with a hammer.
Vern Humphrey
Member
My Kimber, with its spur hammer and beavertail grip safety will not uncock without pressure on the grip safety. Neither will my M1927 Argentine.
JTQ
Member
OK, so I tried your "pull the hammer back until it depresses the grip safety" trick. Yes, it does work with my Colt Combat Elite. Would I ever do it with a loaded pistol, no. To me, decocking a 1911 is a two handed operation. I have some revolver experience with single and double actions and don't think a 1911 is anywhere as easy to decock as a revolver.
I'm not a fan of Condition 2 though I don't think I'd carry my pistol in Condition 0 either. In a risk-rewards matrix, I don't see the advantage to Condition 2 over Condition 1 or Condition 3. However, if you like Condition 2, go ahead and use it. I look at Condition 2 like riding a motorcycle without a helmit (shorts and flip-flops to, if you want), or driving a car without a seat belt. I don't think it is a good idea, but I don't think there should be a law against it if that is what "you" want to do.
I'm not a fan of Condition 2 though I don't think I'd carry my pistol in Condition 0 either. In a risk-rewards matrix, I don't see the advantage to Condition 2 over Condition 1 or Condition 3. However, if you like Condition 2, go ahead and use it. I look at Condition 2 like riding a motorcycle without a helmit (shorts and flip-flops to, if you want), or driving a car without a seat belt. I don't think it is a good idea, but I don't think there should be a law against it if that is what "you" want to do.
I still think that both condition 0 and condition 2 are lousy ideas, albeit for different reasons. I know that there are fans of condition 2 carry, and they have various arguments to support their choice. And I've run across people who claim to carry in condition 0, and they have arguments to support their choice.
But be that all as it may, I am not aware of any major, recognized shooting school that teaches or recommends carrying a 1911 in either condition 0 or condition 2. I do know from personal experience that Gunsite, Bennie Cooley, Louis Awerbuck and Mas Ayoob all teach carrying a 1911 in condition 1.
But be that all as it may, I am not aware of any major, recognized shooting school that teaches or recommends carrying a 1911 in either condition 0 or condition 2. I do know from personal experience that Gunsite, Bennie Cooley, Louis Awerbuck and Mas Ayoob all teach carrying a 1911 in condition 1.
barneyrw
Member
Decocking a 911 with a round in the chamber is easy and safe. Just use the thumb of the left hand as a safety in front of the hammer while lowering it. I'm not sure why anyone would ever want or need to do it one handed. Also cocking a 911 in an emergency situation is almost just as easy as moving the safety off, both are easily done while raising the pistol to eye level. This also works just as well with the Commander type hammer. Also if someone has a problem cocking the hammer in an emergency situation, they should probably ask themselves if they should be carrying a firearm in the first place.
Schleprok62
Member
To me... cocked and locked is the only way to go... (should the NEED arise) moving the thumb safety while drawing is easier and can be accomplished in one smooth motion (with practice) and the weapon is "hot" all systems go... if all goes well, the situation de-escalates itself, and no one get's hurt...
Cheers...
Cheers...
Nonsense. That's why we carry, and major schools teach carrying, a 1911 in condition 1. And when I carry my H&K P7M8 (or for anyone else carrying a striker fired or DAO pistol) cocking a hammer is completely irrelevant.
Thanks for your replies.
Yep.rcmodel said:
Guy I know carries in condition 2. Another guy I know said that that is more dangerous than carrying in condition 0. I'm just trying to understand how that could be true.rcmodel said:
JTQ
Member
I don't know your friend's rational, but even in Condition 0, the 1911 still has the grip safety which is more than a revolver, S&W M&P, Glock, Sig, etc., have, which only require the trigger to be pulled to make the pistol fire.
On the other hand, to get to Condition 2, you intentionally defeat all the safety's brilliantly designed into the 1911, the thumb safety, grip safety, firing pin safety (if there is one), and actually pull the trigger with a live round in the chamber and expect it not to fire.
I like the 1911 a lot. One of the many reasons I like the pistol is because I believe it to be a very safe pistol, largely due to of all the safety devices designed into the pistol. I don't see a reason to intentionally defeat all those safety devices when there is no need to do so. It's just my opinion, but I believe there are safer ways to operate a 1911 than using Condition 2.
On the other hand, to get to Condition 2, you intentionally defeat all the safety's brilliantly designed into the 1911, the thumb safety, grip safety, firing pin safety (if there is one), and actually pull the trigger with a live round in the chamber and expect it not to fire.
I like the 1911 a lot. One of the many reasons I like the pistol is because I believe it to be a very safe pistol, largely due to of all the safety devices designed into the pistol. I don't see a reason to intentionally defeat all those safety devices when there is no need to do so. It's just my opinion, but I believe there are safer ways to operate a 1911 than using Condition 2.
rbernie
Contributing Member
Once again, the Condition 2 debate comes up and the issue between getting to Condition 2 overshadows the safety of carryin' once the pistol is in Condition 2.
Decocking a loaded pistol makes some folk uncomfortable. It has an inherent risk element to it, whereas Condition 1 carry does not. However, once the pistol is decocked it is absolutely safe and inert (assuming that the hammer is resting on the firing pin stop and NOT on the safety notch) until the hammer is cocked. Carrying a decocked 1911 in Condition 2 is safer than Condition 1, because there is no possible series of events that can possibly cause the pistol to fire without cocking the hammer.
So choose yer poison - Condition 1 is safer to get to but less inert than Condition 2. Condition 2 is riskier to get to but mo' inert once you get there.
(and I believe you are reffering to Condition 1 only...)possum said:
There is a continuing erroneous belief the 1911 was designed to be carried only in Condition 1 (C&L). Absolutely not true. It is a mantra repeated, but it is not true. The gun was originally designed by Browning to be carried (as we now label them) condition 3 or condition 2. His final prototype submitted to the army did not have a thumb safety. After evaluating the gun, the Army asked for the thumb safety to be added, Browning and his team added it, and the additional carry option we know as 'Condition 1' was now an option. The original field manuals for the gun describe how to carry it in all conditions - 1, 2, and 3. If someone tells you "the 1911 was designed to be carried in Conditon 1 and not Condition 2," they have not studied the design of the pistol.
Simply, it's not true. Your 'guy' is just wrong. There is no safety issue with carrying the gun in Condition 2. Many knowledgeable people do it. It is especially desirable if carrying the gun unholstered for some reason. The added danger is in putting the gun in Condition 2, and gun safety rules and proper technique need to be followed. There's a big difference in carrying a gun in Condition 2 and placing the gun in Condition 2.
If you are going to carry in condition 2, it is made easier if you have a gun closer to the original design, with a tang safety and a wide-spur hammer. Rcmodel has described that really well above.
EDIT: I see rbernie hit this same point while I was typing my post. As long as I'm here I'll also add this:
JTQ said:
Let me explain it: The advantage is that in Condition 2, there is no conceivable way the gun can discharge without the hammer being pulled back and released. No blow on the dropped hammer can discharge the gun - the inertial fp and fp stop design won't allow it. No combination of internal part failures can cause an AD. In an emergency the hammer can be cocked while drawing or presenting and the gun brought into action as quickly or almost as quickly as condition 1.
With condition 1, a highly unlikely series of events could cause an AD. Improbably, but possible.
So the added benefit of Condition 2 over Condition 1 is the reduction of a highly improbable, but still real, risk of AD to a virtually non-existent risk of AD. In some situations and to some people, this is a desirable trade-off to the added step of putting the gun in Condition 2 vs. Condition 1.
No one is arguing that Condition 2 is superior to Condition 1 in any given situation. But it does offer an option to meet certain needs and should not be blanketly dismissed without giving proper thought and consideration to it.
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
And yet another myth rears up.
The 1911 wasn't designed...nor was it intended...to be carried in any single way. It was designed to be safe to carry in any condition that the user chooses...at least, as safe as a loaded gun can be.
Lowering the hammer on a hot chamber does carry some risk. So does driving a car at 70 mph and clearing brush with a chain saw. One must use care whenever handling potentially dangerous machinery. One must also be in possession of a bit of common sense.
Bottom line:
It's NOT safe. It's a GUN.
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