45-70 as "200 yard limit?" Uh,... ???

[PapaG]

The power is there but the drop is tremendous. I remember putting in 96 clicks of elevation to go from 100 to 200 yards. Still have the 3 5/8" group target though. 385 grain Lyman 457124, 5 grains DuPont shotgun smokeless,55 grains DuPont fog, card/grease/card wads, bullet seated into rifling. Same case for each shot. 3rd place, sorry to say.
They have the accuracy and the penetration but about one guy in a thousand can estimate the range and then hold accordingly at extended ranges.

 

[coyote315]

http://www.shootersforum.com/leverguns-their-cartridges-general/22365-45-70-longer-ranges.html

 

[coyote315]

challenge accepted...with caveat

How many have I made? None- wanted to make certain that if I did get the bullet there, I would have the terminal ballistics to anchor the game...Considering my die set is in the mail and the log book isn't even created yet, gimme about 6 months. If I'm busting hedgeapples at 300 this fall, I'll take it after pigs next trip and set up some long shots on purpose, and then I'll let you know.
(sigh) Looks like I'mma gonna have to shoot a lot more again this summer.... Probably burn up another 22lr barrrel doing distance and wind practice.
Don't underestimate the "billy dixon effect" though; something like that is going to be done on a piece of ground I've hunted several times, surveyed in range and wind markers, etc. Before anyone thinks I'm high, I'm not talking about an offhand shot on a whim. I'm assuming you guys also use chalk or paint to mark your ranges from your favorite stands, and routinely push your rimfires past a hundred yards to enhance your wind computations, right?

 

[d2wing]

Yet another cowboy dreamer. I shoot deer with slugs that are bigger and more powerful killer than any factory 45/70. A modern centerfire kills them faster every time. You can kill them if you could make the shot but that's extremely iffy under field conditions, and it is not fair to the deer to shot them with a 45/70 or shotgun if you can shoot them with a fast high energy bullet that you can make the shot with and it will kill them cleanly as opposed to make a hole with minimal tissue damage. I know you don't understand why that cartridge doesn't kill as well as you think. Posting like that just says you watched too many movies and are going to ignore actual studies. The idea that buffalo hunters killed buffalo from a quarter mile away with 45/70 is a myth. Most buffalo hunters used bigger cartridges and much closer range. Read some actual history and what they said themselves. But 45/70 guys talk about Sandy Hook and think they have a cannon. I know I am wasting my time trying to dispel myths and improve sportsmanship. I am just making you guys mad and you don't believe me or what gun and ammo makers say.

 

[d2wing]

I guess the standard most guys go by is the range you can make a quick shot on a paper plate 100% of the time with 1000 lbs energy. I don't think it is ethical to shoot an animal at that range because of the likelihood of wounding with that choice of a weapon. Even with a appropriate choice of weapon it is not ethical unless you can make the shot 100% of the time.

 

[Ar180shooter]

I became interested in 45/70 recently both to shoot and reload, and I've noticed some hilarious internet trend of "yeah it's a great caliber but only to 200 yards." A lot of this is regarding deer and hogs...

Generally speaking, a lever-action load is still pushing a 400-grainish bullet pretty decent at 400 yards. I interpret the misnomer that it's a 200 yard cartridge to marketing not wanting to tell people that they're 200-yard marksmen, incapable of ethically judging distance and shooting accordingly. Certainly, that 400 grain bullet is going to do it's job even after slowing down and dropping 48" against mule deer and smaller, definitely whitetails and hogs! If you've become proficient enough to put the bullet where it needs to go, I'd think that bowling-ball bullet is definitely going to plant just about anything it hits, right?

A .22lr is capable of killing a Moose, but that doesn't mean it's a good idea/ethical to try.

 

[eastbank]

google bpcr silholette competition and see what they are hitting out to 500yds and farther with tang sights(no scopes or smokless powder). the 45-70 shooting a 500gr round nose bullet(the new flex tipped bullet would be much better) at 1700fps is still going near a thousand feet per second with 1054 foot pounds of energy at 500yds,about the same fps and fpe a .45 colt 300gr in a rifle gives at 50yds and who here would not shoot a deer at 50 yds with that? should you shoot deer at that range with a 45-70? your choice. but the 45-70 will do it if you and your rifle are up to it. and its easy to mount a scope on a winchester high wall,browning high wall or a ruger #1-#3 and they make long tubed scopes for the sharps and rolling blocks. with any long range shooting there is a lot of work for you and the rifle,ammo and scope, you can,t go on the cheap. i don,t shoot deer at 500yds with the 45-70 or any other rifle, but i would if the conditions were right,standing broadside,known range and a good rest. and it is not a spot and stalk game but ambush, no different than 1000yard centerfire rifle shooting,get sent up on a location and wait. eastbank.

 

[StrawHat]

To me, it is not so much about energy, drop or even group size. At longer ranges, the time of flight for a black powder round to travel the distance can allow a lining animal to move quite a bit. A perfect shoulder hold is worthless if the animal moves two or three feet while grazing. The animals I hunt have rarely given me a perfect broadside standing still target.

 

[heycods]

Someone forgot to tell the Buffalo that it wouldnt kill past 200yds!

 

[R.W.Dale]

Again shooting bright targets at A KNOWN RANGE that you've spent hundreds of hours and rounds working up a zero for is completely different than putting a bullet into an 8" kill zone at a largely unknown range where a 10yd miscalculation combined with a mere 20fps mv variance means you missed completely.

 

[Robert]

Buffalo hunters didn't care about wounding an animal.

 

[R.W.Dale]

And for the last time 45/70 was to the buffalo hunter of the day what a 223 is to a trophy deer hunter today.

 

[torqem]

What some a-hat is willing to torture/waste animals with, and what's a decent, humane tool for the job are not the same thing. It's disgusting how many hunters don't care about that. A lot of guys are jerk-hunters. Unless that critter is bedded down, he can always take one step in 1/2 second, and 1/2 of a step means that you've gut shot it. If your bullet is in the air more than 1/2 second, it's an inhumane shot, if the animal is on its feet. Guess how far a 1500 fps bullet travels in 1/2 second? Flat noses, large bore slugs slow down really fast, due to air resistance.

The hide-hunters used the 50-90 Sharps, much more power than the 45-70 and didn't want to waste a lot of time on having the herd run off. They got inside 200 yds, studied the herd, and shot the "lead" cow. Without her guidance, the rest of the bison would just stand there, or only mill around. So the shooter could keep stacking them up. They had to skin those monsters, salt and haul the hides. So big wagons and teams of mules were used. They did not have days and days to mess around getting one hit. A gut shot critter could easily stampede the entire herd, and there goes a week's pay and a lot of effort.

An errant breeze means a lot more to a 45-70 shooter than it does to one usinga 300 Win mag. Mirage is often a big factor, and the longer you take for the shot, the longer the bullet is in the air, the worse things get, typically.
Guys are full of it about such things. They practice from the sand bags, on ONE range, learning the vagaries of wind there, with windflags, "spotter" shots, etc, and then kid themselves that they can do the same things in the field, one cold shot.

 

[ngnrd]

If I'm busting hedgeapples at 300 this fall, I'll take it after pigs next trip and set up some long shots on purpose, and then I'll let you know.

If you have to take a second, third, or fourth shot, or end up wounding or losing the animal, are you still going to come back here and let us know how it went?

 

[jerkface11]

Why is it that buying a 4570 makes people think their last name is Quigley?

 

[Onmilo]

Trajectory isn't the only issue with most .45/70 bullets.
Wind drift is a major concern, especially with the flatpoint and flatpoint roundnose bullets.
As little as three mile and hour breeze can move a .45 several FEET off target at longer ranges.
I have a .458 Whitworth pointed 520 grain flatbase bullet mold that makes great long range shooting bullets but these are limited to two rounds in any tubular mag gun and that means one in the chamber and one in the mag tube.
Whitworth muzzleloaders were commonly loaded with 90 to 120 grains of single FG blackpowder for long range shooting and the ballistics can be safely duplicated using smokeless powder in a .45/70 case.
I normally shoot this load in a Pedersoli Sharps.

 

[goon]

Why do people think that sniping at a game animal with any cartridge is a good idea?
In some cases you can't help but shoot from far away, but I get as close as possible before I shoot. I'd rather make an ethical shot and not risk injuring an animal.

I'm no buffalo hunter. They killed indiscriminately and let animals to rot in the sun. Not something I aspire to.

 

[Don McDowell]

Just for all you history professors, the 45-70 probably didn't account for many buffalo as it was late into the main slaughter. But the 44-77 which lobs a 400 gr bullet around 1300 fps was the most popular, followed by the 40-90 bn, 50-70, and then at the very last of the hunt the 45 2 7/8 cartridge.
If you do a ballistic table investigation, while 1000 yds is out of the question for killing game with any gun, the 500 gr 45-70 is still trundling along at 800ish fps.
Shooting game past 200 yds with any cartridge is in reality past the majority of riflemans ability.But it can be done, by those with a good understanding of the trajectory of their cartridge.
All the hoorah by those with a keyboard but no real world experience is pretty funny actually. Those big heavy slugs really do a number on game.
This elk was at 204 yds slightly quartering away, the ladder sight was set on the 200 yd setting. The bullet hit him his legs folded underneath and he dang near hit the ground before his shadow did and next move he made was when he got taken to the processing plant.

 

[Don McDowell]

Here's a link to a Zebra kill in Africa with a 45-70 sharps.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqs543qxTHE

 

[itsa pain]

Hey Coyote 315, how many 400 yard shots have you made with a 45 70 where you took game? If you any have I am bowing down to you. I calculate over 100 inches of drop on a 200 yard zero with my 1500 fps 405 grain loads. This has the bullet falling pretty steeply at 400 yards. You must be an uber marksman.

I limit my 45 70 405 grain rounds at 1500 fps to 140 yards. Past that I won't take the shot.

It will hit a 6 foot square target reliably at a mile. Hitting game at 400 yards is another story.

Who would want to shoot game at long range with a 45/70 when there are many better rounds to do it with. Target shooting at long range with a buffalo style rifle is fun

 

[torqem]

Nobody said that they won't kill

what we said is that shots at 200+ yds, with a 45-70, are inhumane risks to take, if the animal is on its feet. That is 600 ft, so the bullet took 1/2 second to get there, and the critter could easily have taken a step in that time, and there's nothing you could do about it, except try to find the gut shot animal.

 

[mavracer]

To me, it is not so much about energy, drop or even group size. At longer ranges, the time of flight for a black powder round to travel the distance can allow a lining animal to move quite a bit. A perfect shoulder hold is worthless isf the animal moves two or three feet while grazing. The animals I hunt have rarely given me a perfect broadside standing still target.

I agree. Time of flight is going to exceed 1 second. You can be on the money with every thing wind, range, and squeeze off the shot with perfect sight alignment only to have the animal take a step.
Just for the record most animals are easily capable of reaching 30 to 40 feet per second.

 

[d2wing]

45/70 shooters do not understand that the big slow cartridges are not good killers. In the 1800's after smokeless powder was invented and modern high speed bullets were invented it became evident that the new cartridges with expanding bullets were far more deadly and caused gruesome wounds that shocked civilized countries. International treaties were drawn up banning expanding bullets for war because of the wounds they caused. In those days extensive wounds led to gangrene.

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[natman]

As for ethics, well, only a man who is honest with himself can answer that question for himself. Know your actual field-condition limits... that what practice time is for.

The nice thing about big heavy bullets is that while velocity comes and goes, when a big heavy bullet hits at long range it's still big and heavy.

The objections to the 45-70 at long range are not based on power but the difficulty of hitting anything reliably and repeatably at any distance due to the extreme drop. This requires a degree of accuracy in distance estimation and holdover that is difficult to achieve in the real world.

I suggest that you put a paper plate out at an unknown distance well past 200 yards and see if you can hit it with your first shot, then put 10 shots in a row on it with a 45-70. I expect the experience will provide a fresh perspective on why it's not recommended as a long range round.

 

[Don McDowell]

The nice thing about big heavy bullets is that while velocity comes and goes, when a big heavy bullet hits at long range it's still big and heavy.

The objections to the 45-70 at long range are not based on power but the difficulty of hitting anything reliably and repeatably at any distance due to the extreme drop. This requires a degree of accuracy in distance estimation and holdover that is difficult to achieve in the real world.

I suggest that you put a paper plate out at an unknown distance well past 200 yards and see if you can hit it with your first shot, then put 10 shots in a row on it with a 45-70. I expect the experience will provide a fresh perspective on why it's not recommended as a long range round.

Natman I'll submit for your consideration that with todays technology, there is absolutely no reason for anyone with any firearm to take a shot at an "unknown" distance, save for maybe someone still hunting timber. Any hunter that wants to be thoroughly ethical will be carrying and using a range finder.
The wind is a big factor as well, and I've watched many atime as a licensed professional hunter herder, when a clients bullet went zipping well past an animals backside because the shooter didn't factor in the wind with his belted magnum...