45-70 as "200 yard limit?" Uh,... ???

[natman]

Natman I'll submit for your consideration that with todays technology, there is absolutely no reason for anyone with any firearm to take a shot at an "unknown" distance, save for maybe someone still hunting timber. Any hunter that wants to be thoroughly ethical will be carrying and using a range finder.

A good point, let me clarify. I meant "unknown" in the sense that it's not a premeasured distance where the hunter knows in advance exactly what the range is. Even with a range finder a tiny percentage of error in distance estimation / holdover will produce a miss with as much drop as a 45-70 has.

The wind is a big factor as well, and I've watched many atime as a licensed professional hunter herder, when a clients bullet went zipping well past an animals backside because the shooter didn't factor in the wind with his belted magnum...

Agreed, and given the long flight time of a 45-70 the wind has much more effect.

 

[hardluk1]

yea it will kill at long distance and until you get to try one out to 800 yards to see the bullet drop you just don't know. Pugs this info in to see what 45/70 will do . 45/70- 405gr bullet with a .225 bc and at 1400fps using a scope 1.1/2" sight above the bore and a 200 yard zero. Check out the bullet drop at 400 yards using a 200 yard zero, 150". yep , it can kill at 400 yards but not a lot of chance at making a hit unless you have great skills.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

 

[Don McDowell]

A good point, let me clarify. I meant "unknown" in the sense that it's not a premeasured distance where the hunter knows in advance exactly what the range is. Even with a range finder a tiny percentage of error in distance estimation / holdover will produce a miss with as much drop as a 45-70 has

I'ld venture thru experience over the years, that the vast majority of sporting types with their highvelocity scope sighted rifles would be hard pressed to pass that test in field conditions.
Everybody keeps going on about hold over. But the thing is with a properly set up rifle, there is no hold over. It does require the use of a good sight, and further it requires the shooter to spend the time with that sight to get it regulated.
A 45-70 contained in a modern scope sighted rifle is surely limited to about 150 yds due to the bullet drop. But the rifleman that knows his/her business and has spent the time with a proper sight set up will not "hold over" but will hold on... There's a difference.

 

[Don McDowell]

yea it will kill at long distance and until you get to try one out to 800 yards to see the bullet drop you just don't know. Pugs this info in to see what 45/70 will do . 45/70- 405gr bullet with a .225 bc and at 1400fps using a scope 1.1/2" sight above the bore and a 200 yard zero. Check out the bullet drop at 400 yards using a 200 yard zero, 150". yep , it can kill at 400 yards but not a lot of chance at making a hit unless you have great skills.

http://www.handloads.com/calc/

I can save you some time, for every 100 yds with a 500 gr 45-70 bullet moving at 1200 fps from the muzzle you will need about 15 minutes elevation correction.

 

[Don McDowell]

Time of flight is a term that's getting tossed around here quite a bit. While it is something of a factor it is not quite as horrendous as some might think.
This is a 480 gr bullet traveling at about 1175 fps, the gong is 300 yds out.
http://s51.photobucket.com/user/Ranch137/media/002-2.mp4.html

 

[Jason_W]

Is the discussion only limited to traditional style .45/70 loads? with modern components in a modern rifle, the 45/70 is a whole different animal from that of the cowboy years.

 

[Don McDowell]

You still have a good bit of drop to contend with, even a 300 gr bullet at close to 2000 fps is going to drop something around 16 inches at 300 yds. That still makes getting enough elevation adjustment from a 100 yd zero from a modern rifle scope something of a stretch.

 

[Jason_W]

I have load data showing a 300 grain bullet encroaching on 2500 f/s out of a 24" barrel. It's only for modern single shots, though.

I'm thinking that out of a single shot, a ballistic tipped bullet would hold velocity reasonably well.

 

[eastbank]

put a 20 moa base on a high wall and use a good target scope with .50 minute clicks(each click be 2 moa at 400yds and 2.5 moa at 500yds) with a 500gr bullet going 1700fps, 500yds is very doable.this is ambush hunting,you get set up and wait,the deer don,t know you are there and just wander thru,stopping and testing the wind and waiting for a time before going accossed a clearing. plenty of time for a shot and the ranges were ranged before setting up. most times with more than one lazar, and at some of the places shots are taken at targets before season. if i just want to kill something a 500yds i would take either one of these two rifles,a 7mm-mag leupold 4.5x14 with TDS and a 160gr bullet at 3000fps or a 300win mag with a 4.5x14 springfield sniper scope and a 180gr bullet at 3000fps. eastbank.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Natman I'll submit for your consideration that with todays technology, there is absolutely no reason for anyone with any firearm to take a shot at an "unknown" distance, save for maybe someone still hunting timber. Any hunter that wants to be thoroughly ethical will be carrying and using a range finder.

The wind is a big factor as well, and I've watched many atime as a licensed professional hunter herder, when a clients bullet went zipping well past an animals backside because the shooter didn't factor in the wind with his belted magnum...

Show me a rangefinder that will reliably get a return signal on a dark furry animal at 500yds.

A rangefinder that's rated to give you a distance on a flat metallic surface may not do HALF that on a deer or similar animal.

Range ESTIMATION doesn't cut it with the 45/70 beyond. 300yds. You have to know within a FEW FEET the EXACT range and MV you will have under the conditions present at the time the shot is taken to hit that 8" kill zone.

There are no sighters allowed when hunting.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Time in flight matters because unlike a gong deer can hear the report if your bullet spends enough time below the speed of sound en route to the animal

 

[eastbank]

i give up,have a nice day. i,m going to reload some 45-70,s. eastbank.

 

[Don McDowell]

RW it takes a good range finder. My Burris rangefinding binocular will do it.
But the thing is you have to get off the keyboard and out into the field, do the rangework first then comes the hunting part, and if you've done the rangework, the hunting part will be a snap.

 

[Dr T]

Perhaps in the 1880's when few hunters had optics, perhaps the hunters were better judges of distance and actually knew from experience how to use those tangential sights.

 

[BSA1]

d2wing,

In response to your comments in Post 27...I respectfully say BALONEY, Sir.

The 45-70 is a very capable long distance and big game round. As mention the biggest limiting factors are lack of skill by the shooter and improper gun.

It is very effective on thin skinned game such as deer as it creates less bloodshot meat but will shatter any bones in the animals body.

Lack of shooter skill is part of the problem with finding shooting ranges beyond 200 yards for practice.

Lever guns are simply not designed for long range shooting and are handicapped by their sights.

With my Pedersoli Rolling Block I have shot clean stages at 600 yards on a target about 2' x 3'. I used a 405 gr. cast lead bullet at a MV around 1250 fps and Lee Shaver tang sight. I shot from a sitting position using cross sticks just like the old timers.

No I have not killed big game at 500 yards but I shot clear through adult bison at measured 165 yards with the same bullet and load. I am very confident at 300 yards with this gun and load combination. I would take a 500 yard shot to prevent a wounded animal from escaping but it would not be my primary one.

Robert,

In regards to your comment in post 34 wounding a bison was the worst thing a P.H. could do. The favored tactic at the time was for the hunter to kill as many buffs as he wanted from one position. This was best done by killing a dominate female. This usually caused confusion within the herd making killing the others a simple task. (I have done this and it works). Typically a P.h. would kill 40 bison as that was all two skinners could do in a day. Of course the more skinners and wagons a P.H. has the more buff he could kill in a day but that also meant more expenses and less profit.

 

[d2wing]

I just read a book written by a buffalo hunter, It may have been fiction but he stated they did use optics, 10x and up made in Germany. He said most Buffalo runner used heavy Sharps or Remington rifles and like to set up a rest about 30 inches of the ground at about 200 yards.

 

[BSA1]

200 yards was desirable as buffalo have poor eyesight and could not see the shooter or smell the black powder. 200 yards sitting shooting off cross sticks is not difficult.

 

[Steve S.]

My Experience 45-70

I shoot a Shiloh Hartford in 45-70; I have shot and spotted out to 900 yards shooting this rifle; when I say "spotted", I mean a hand talkie speaking with my nephew (the other shooter) and talking rounds in from behind a barricade. I do not know how much velocity or how much energy the 405 grain had when it got there; I do know that it got there rather slow but it came in hard. I could not hit an animal at 900 yards however, I am confident in the energy to do the job; scary hard at 900 yards. Good shooting.

 

[d2wing]

BSA, the writer of the book stated the same thing you did about wounding the female leader of the small herd. It was very interesting. The Army gave the hunters 45/70 ammo which they pulled the bullet and recast. Some reused the powder but the author used imported powder. The Author shot a 50/90 Sharps. He said he bought a 45/70 light gun for small game like deer. He did not use the 45/70 on buffalo as he considered it too light. Heh, hehe. The preferred rifles were Sharps. The author did state a real Buffalo gun was better than a modern cartridge in your favor, but he did not consider a 45/70 a buffalo cartridge. I am fascinated by old west history. I also read that hunters and Indians killed between 7-10 million buffalo going by records of the time. Only about 7000 buffalo rifles were sold. Mostly Sharps. The other estimated 40-50 million buffalo were suddenly wiped out by disease caught from cattle. Rumored helped by the government. I respect what you have accomplished with your rifle. Can't say I understand it.
It seems buffalo running they called it was a tough business. The more I read the more I think that the 45/70 was not much used by pros as a main gun and not that many could afford to kill for sport. Since the Army gave out ammo I am sure it killed thousands Buffalo though. Suppose I am wandering off topic again.

 

[Don McDowell]

Ol Frank's book is interesting reading but there is a load of bs in it. Starting with the Army giving anybody ammunition. There is no documentation on that anywhere, and given the ammunition shortages most frontier post had it's extremely doubtful any was given to the hide hunters.

 

[jerkface11]

So much hubris in this thread.

 

[coyote315]

Ahahahaha!

Yeah, I'd let you know: but I'm in agreement w/ the post about it being un-ethical to try to do anything you don't know for certain you can do. Remember, my original post was about TERMINAL BALLISTICS. Not marksmanship.
And no, a 12g slug does not hit better, harder or anything else than a 458 bullet: the slug is too soft and won't penetrate when it slows down, and uses shuttlecock physics for accuracy.
It IS fun to watch people get so pissy projecting their own insecurities on INTERMEDIATE BALLISTICS to excuse the terminal question, though.
Lastly, congrats, Don McDowell! I was planning on using a scope; good on ya using irons!

 

[Don McDowell]

Coyote , Thanks. I know a number of folks that use the irons on their rifles to good affect.
I go thru a lot of powder lead and primers every year.
I really like the ladder sights as once you get them regulated for the load , it's very quick and easy to set the slide to the range you need.
I think it's somewhat of a shame that todays riflemen have been "dumbed down" so to speak in that very few youngsters in the last couple of decades have been taught the basics of rifle craft starting with iron sights and their proper use.

 

[BSA1]

One absolutely essential item for long range shooting with single shot rifles ( Rollers Sharps, Hi-Walls, etc. ) is a level mounted on the top of the barrel. Some front sights have the level mounted on it so the shooter can quickly check it while focusing on the front sight.

On my Roller I have the level installed in the dovetail notch where the rear sight used to be. I prefer it as it is larger than the levels on front sights. Even the slightest canting of the barrei will throw your shot way off at long range.

 

[Robert]

BSA, thanks for the education on that point.