Are Glocks More Prone To Misfire?

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I'm a geezer so my choice was simple: either a 1911 or BHP.. that said, my girly-sized hands made the BHP a better choice. Glocks are truly fine guns for those of us who practice proper handgun safety, and can tolerate all the plastics, funky trigger, hidden hammer, .. .. ..
 
Reaper? Is that a 1911 without a manual safety? Oh my!

Ever wonder why Glock instructors where bullet-proof vests when training officers in the proper use of Glock pistols? Ever wonder why the Glock owner’s manual warns civilians not to carry the Glock pistol with a round in the chamber because of the risk of unintentional discharge?

Wearing bullet proof vests is common among range officers glock or no glock. Most instruction manuals tell customers not to carry the gun with a round in the chamber, it's really just for liability purposes. They realize that most people do carry with one in the chamber because it would be impractical not to but have to cover their own you know what.
 
A glock is no more dangerous than any other hand gun. If you follow rule #1 and keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire, the Glock will never accidentially discharge.
I disagree.

Here's but one example as to why:

http://www.thegunzone.com/mos/ad.html

If you wear a cover garment you'll want to be very careful how you reholster your loaded Glock. If anything gets into the trigger guard, for example, it can cause an AD when you go to seat the pistol. If you took a 1911 with the safety engaged and did the same thing, the AD above wouldn't have happened.

Also, many police officers have made the mistake of grabbing for a falling pistol and caused an AD, much like this THR poster almost had. Ask Plaxico how safe it is to grab for a falling Glock pistol. While it's not a good idea to grab for a falling pistol, ever... had these weapons been equipped with a manual safety the gun wouldn't have fired. A safety gives you one extra tier of protection, assuming you use it properly.

With all of that being said, I'm a fan of the Glock pistols primarily because they don't have manual safeties. The upside to a handgun that lacks a safety is that it's quick into a fight and there's no chance of a mistake being made where the safety isn't disengaged before attempting to fire.
 
So, this thread has become about whether a handgun that tends to fire when the trigger is pulled is safe.

Of course it's not safe. That's the point. Firearms are SUPPOSED to be reliably dangerous. Personally, I want my loaded firearms to go bang when I pull the trigger. Your mileage may vary.

John
 
Note Reaper's quote: A Citizen noted the hammer back on the 1911 carried in the waist band by Charlie Miller, Texas Ranger. The Citizen asks, "Isn't That Dangerous?" Charlie replied, "I wouldn't carry the son of a bitch if it wasn't dangerous." DVC

Wow, a 1911 without a manual safety. That's enough to make some 1911 guys question their religion. ;)
 
Reaper. Something tells me that's not the version that Charlie Miller was wearing in his waist band. But maybe that's where Gaston got the idea.
 
Ben86: "Most instruction manuals tell customers not to carry the gun with a round in the chamber, it's really just for liability purposes. They realize that most people do carry with one in the chamber because it would be impractical not to but have to cover their own you know what."

I am all in favor of covering your "you know what," but you can't have it both ways. If Glock truly believes it is safe to carry its pistol with a round in the chamber, then they should say so. When they specifically warn the user that it is unsafe to do so, I assume they know what they are talking about. After all, they designed it.

By the way, the Israeli special forces apparently believe what they read in Glock's manual because they routinely carry the Glock with an empty chamber.
 
So we are debating the safety of pulling the trigger on a loaded weapon?? I carry my M&P with one in the chamber all the time. I HOPE its not safe when I pull the trigger. Its a weapon, its not supposed to be safe.
 
G29sf here - not one failure of any kind. I've shot 100's of rounds of Double Tap, BVAC, and Georgia Arms FMJ's and HP's from each manufacture. Just my experience.

As far as accidentals, I was worried about it at first. I cocked it and left the pipe empty and practiced taking it in and out of my pocket, quick deliberately sloppy draws, and other things I would NOT do with a loaded gun. Slapped it around, bumped into things, basically trying to make it happen. The only thing that makes it trip is intentionally pulling the trigger.
 
I do believe in carrying any weapon with no manual safety in a kydex or other well molded holster that affords a lot of protection to the trigger and trigger guard but with that taken care of I have 100% confidence in my M&P and I would also with a Glock, XD, etc..... The idea that another weapon is safer to aim at yourself or others or when you pull the trigger is counter intuitive to everything I know about gun safety. If you keep your finger off the trigger, use a well designed holster, and don't aim your weapon at anything you don't intend to shoot, then you are good no matter what. If you need a manual safety or a heavy trigger to be safe then you need mechanical devices to compensate for your own poor gun handling and judgment in my opinion.
 
I am all in favor of covering your "you know what," but you can't have it both ways. If Glock truly believes it is safe to carry its pistol with a round in the chamber, then they should say so. When they specifically warn the user that it is unsafe to do so, I assume they know what they are talking about. After all, they designed it.

That's what they get for listening to lawyers. It's the lawyers talking, not the engineers.

By the way, the Israeli special forces apparently believe what they read in Glock's manual because they routinely carry the Glock with an empty chamber.

That's just silly, but I'm glad it works for them anyway. They are the real deal.
 
holsm, They also carry BHPs- in fact, EVERY handgun- with an empty chamber. Should we then assume that all handguns are unsafe with loaded chambers? :rolleyes:

John
 
By the way, the Israeli special forces apparently believe what they read in Glock's manual because they routinely carry the Glock with an empty chamber.
This statement is misleading.

When the Browing Hi-Power was in service, condition 3 (hammer down on an empty chamber) carry was common in the Israeli military and in law enforcement. This was done because the Hi-Power, in their view, wasn't safe to carry with the hammer back on a live round as the safety wasn't positive enough and was easily brushed off unintentionally. The Hi-Power also wasn't safe to carry with the hammer down on a live round as there wasn't a firing pin safety. So, they adopted what has become known as the "Israeli carry".

Now that the Hi-Power is gone from primary service, the IDF no longer teaches this method of carry. There are some old school hold outs still practicing this method, but officially the SOP is to carry the weapon loaded with a round in the chamber.
 
Sturmgewehr, you may very well be correct on the etiology of the "Israeli carry." I have no reason to dispute that. As to whether the IDF currently teaches its people to carry in this manner, all I can say is that I have watched several training videos where Israelis were being trained to carry their Glocks with an empty chamber and rack the slide upon drawing the pistol. It was an extremely smooth draw with virtually no lost time. Most recently, I saw an episode on T.V. where there was a comparison of Navy SEALS vs Israeli special forces, and the Israelis were still using the "Israeli carry." (SIG vs Glock)
 
I don't post here much anymore ... well, this is my first post in a really long time, but all this misleading stuff about Israeli carry is bugging me.

The Israelis carry *any* pistol with an empty chamber because that's the law of the land, not because of the make or model of the pistol.
 
No clue, but the last guy I talked to said it was the gun laws. As to *why* they put 'em in .... way above my paygrade.
 
I don't know either, but it sounds like they're concerned about the risk of accidental discharge.
 
If you firmly believe that just because some people don't know how to safely handle and holster a loaded firearm, then every firearm should have a manual safety, then ask yourself how you feel about magazine disconnect safeties. Should these be mandatory, too? After all, I'm fairly sure a magazine disconnect safety has prevented at least a few ND's by novice gun handlers. So would you agree to put a magazine safety on all your guns, even though you, personally, are fairly certain you understand how a semiautomatic firearm works (and would handle it safely, as always, regardless if you thought it was loaded)?

Heck, exposed hammers should also be done away with, because someone, somewhere, against all advice will eventually try to decock the gun manually and do it the wrong way. We've got to protect people (and their bedroom walls) from themselves, right? It doesn't matter that you personally know how to decock (or leave cocked) a gun with an exposed hammer. Someone out there doesn't know how to do it, and also doesn't follow basic gun safety rules.

We had an ND thread going on the forum, and as I recall, quite a few ND's happened from people manually decocking their gun. Actually, I don't recall any single of the ND's on the thread occurring specifically with Glocks, though a lot of them might as well have been - the ones that happened with an "unloaded" gun where the trigger was intentionally pulled. This seemed to account for half of the ND's. Actually it seems like all of these happened with guns that had manual safeties, so maybe it's possible that having extra doodads on a gun distracts the user? Maybe having too many options causes mistakes. Maybe just knowing that your gun is loaded/locked/cocked, loaded/locked/uncocked, loaded/unlocked/uncocked, loaded/unlocked/cocked, unloaded/locked/cocked, unloaded/uncocked/...etc. is a tad bit more to think about then simply having to know is my Glock ready to go bang or not? Maybe during the momentary lapses where these ND's occur, part of the brain actually equates "safe" with "unloaded?"

Wait, I just had a flash of genius. Minimum barrel length should be 9 feet. That way, as long as it's drop safe, no one can accidentally shoot themselves no matter how poorly they handle their firearm. Oh, wait. They might have a raid jacket hanging on the wall...
 
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quite a few ND's happened from people manually decocking their gun.

That's a common one. I saw a guy almost put a 10mm hole in his foot while trying to de-cock his taurus pt92 in .40. Luckily he had it pointing at the ground when it went off. The thing I don't understand is that the darn thing has a de-cocker built into the safety! Wow, just wow.

Another one I've witnessed is a guy whose gun's trigger didn't reset like he thought it should. In a state of confusion he looks in the barrel, then thankfully flips the gun toward the ground and some how in his state of confusion pulls the trigger accidentally. He was so shocked the gun almost flew out of his hand. Good job Gomer.

I hate to mention natural selection....but.
 
Before Gaston Glock came along in the early 1980's, we wouldn’t be having this discussion about the pros and cons of manual safeties because virtually every semi-automatic pistol on the market had at least one manual safety of some type. Why? Because it was the combined knowledge and experience of some of the greatest firearms designers known to mankind that manual safeties reduce (NOT eliminate) the risk of someone being seriously injured or killed when the user makes a mistake and causes something to contact the trigger. Back then, most responsible gun owners would have considered it dangerous, negligent and totally irresponsible to carry a semi-automatic in condition 1 without engaging the manual safety.

Again, let me reiterate that I am not suggesting manual safeties will prevent all accidental or negligent discharges. Any safety can be defeated and I am sure that there have been many scenarios where a manual safety has failed to prevent an AD/ND. However, manual safeties certainly do prevent some AD/ND’s. In my judgment, protecting the user or innocent bystanders from the user’s negligence is a good thing. Some of you obviously disagree.

I have been an avid hunter, shooter and gun collector for over 40 years. When it comes to hunting, I would never hunt with anyone who did not have a manual safety on his gun and keep it engaged until he is ready to shoot. Too many things can happen that can lead to unintentional discharge, such as dropping the gun, snagging something on the trigger, tripping and inadvertently squeezing the trigger, to name a few. Would anyone in their right mind dispute the
the benefit of having a manual safety on a hunting rifle or shotgun? As I see it, there is no downside whatsoever ------ only benefits. You keep the safety on until you are ready to shoot. As you raise the weapon to your shoulder, the safety is clicked-off, you fire the weapon, and you lower the weapon the safety is clicked-on. No lost time. And then you train yourself to constantly check the safety while your in the field.

I know that some of you would like to distinguish long arms from sidearms when it comes to the benefits of a manual safety, but I fail to see a difference. (NOTE: It is not my opinion that revolvers need a manual safety as they are substantially different from semi-automatic pistols and it is very difficult to inadvertently discharge a revolver in double-action mode with a long, hard 10-12 lb. trigger pull.) Once the pistol is out of the holster, you can drop it, snag something on the trigger or inadvertently touch the trigger, just like in the field. The risks of unintentional discharge are the same as with long arms, and the benefits of a manual safety are likewise the same. Moreover, the idea that there is some impediment to operating a pistol with a manual safety because you have to remember to engage/disengage it is “hogwash.” It’s all a matter of training and familiarity with your pistol. Disengaging the manual safety as you are raising the pistol to firing position is a matter of practice which becomes second nature. As many of you have said, there is no substitute for training. In my judgment, if you can not learn to operate a manual safety, then you should seriously question whether you should be using a semi-automatic pistol for self-defense. It’s not rocket science.

I appreciate many aspects of the Glock pistol (I happen to own one). I think they are very rugged and reliable, and shoot well. I think they are excellent combat sidearms in the hands of a highly trained expert. Having said that, I believe they are unsafe for the average user (which includes many LEO’s), because they are they lack a manual safety. Telling the user to rely on his finger is cop-out. I am all in favor of improvements in firearm design that make the weapon more effective, but not at the expense of safety. Glock’s elimination of the manual safety, in my opinion, is a step in the wrong direction.

Most of you will agree that the Glock pistol was designed as a military sidearm for the Austrian Army. Frankly, when it comes to military weapons/technology, I prefer to rely on American ingenuity and know-how. But perhaps someone out there can answer this question for me: Why does the U.S. military demand manual safeties on all of its standard issue long arms and sidearms?
 
Every year at hunting season deaths and injuries form accidental shootings are reported around the nation. EVERY one of those hunting rifles has a safety. Telling people to "rely on thier finger" is NOT a cop-out it is part of safe gun handling. Keeping your weapon pointed in a safe direction and always assuming a weapon is loaded are equally important. If you can't follow the first three rules a manual safety is not going to make that easier. Its only going to make you lazier in following them. I have nothing against a manual safety and many of my weapons have them but relying on it to make your weapon "safe" is not a wise idea in my opinion. I don't believe that if a person doesn't have the wisdom to keep their finger off the trigger, or keep thier weapon pointed in a safe direction, or to ensure it is unloaded, they will somehow be smart enough ensure they always engage their manual safety. Perhaps the answer is the weapon should have a spring loaded safety that must be manually disengaged to fire each and every shot? Would this make it a safe weapon? I don't think so if you can't practice the real rules of the game: No finger on the trigger, keep it pointed in a safe direction, and ALWAYS treat your weapon as though it is loaded.

Ive never had an accidental discharge in my life until this year when I had TWO. One was from a faulty sear in a 1911 (thank GOD I had it pointed in a safe direction) and the second with a BHP that I ASSUMED was unloaded (once again fired in a safe direction). Both weapons had manual safeties and I consider BOTH discharges to be my fault. But thanks to the fact I didn't break all three rules no one was hurt.
 
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