KenpoProfessor
Member
Just sent my email to the Gov
That's what I did
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
That's what I did
Have a great Kenpo day
Clyde
California does it again: passed the ammo bill.
- Thread starter PinnedAndRecessed
- Start date
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Stage 2 ~
Yes. I grew up there, in fact (well, mostly ... we moved a lot). After I got married and our first two kids came along, my husband and I decided that we did not want to raise our family in that environment, and worked our rear ends off to get out of the state. This was before I got into firearms, and well before I had any real awareness of RKBA issues. Why?
Hk91 ~
Not a thing. I don't live in Cali and so I'm not on the front lines there. I do, however, keep abreast of the political situation here in Washington state, and have visited my state reps on several occasions, have picketed MMM-type events, and have shown up at the capital to speak out when there were committee hearings about various RKBA-related legislation.
Jeff ~
I agree with your assessment: Cali battles won't stay in Cali. What happens in California eventually does affect the rest of us. That's one of the many reasons it's good to keep the rest of us informed about what's going on, even when it's a front-line battle that hasn't spread yet.
pax
Yes. I grew up there, in fact (well, mostly ... we moved a lot). After I got married and our first two kids came along, my husband and I decided that we did not want to raise our family in that environment, and worked our rear ends off to get out of the state. This was before I got into firearms, and well before I had any real awareness of RKBA issues. Why?
Hk91 ~
Not a thing. I don't live in Cali and so I'm not on the front lines there. I do, however, keep abreast of the political situation here in Washington state, and have visited my state reps on several occasions, have picketed MMM-type events, and have shown up at the capital to speak out when there were committee hearings about various RKBA-related legislation.
Jeff ~
I agree with your assessment: Cali battles won't stay in Cali. What happens in California eventually does affect the rest of us. That's one of the many reasons it's good to keep the rest of us informed about what's going on, even when it's a front-line battle that hasn't spread yet.
pax
Robert Hairless
Member
- Joined
- Oct 11, 2003
- Messages
- 3,983
HK91fan:
Perhaps you didn't understand the message in which Pax complained that nobody from California alerted people here so that they could fight this thing? It's hard to help fight something from a distance when people on the scene don't say that they need help. That aside, shouldn't such fights be led by people on the scene who presumably know its dynamics?
Here's my favorite cartoon about gun owners:
Perhaps you didn't understand the message in which Pax complained that nobody from California alerted people here so that they could fight this thing? It's hard to help fight something from a distance when people on the scene don't say that they need help. That aside, shouldn't such fights be led by people on the scene who presumably know its dynamics?
Here's my favorite cartoon about gun owners:
Liberal Gun Nut
Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 388
Yeah, this was a surprise thing in California. Frankly there isn't much we could have done about it. The CA legislature is what it is. They do want to ban all handguns in the state and this crazy bill is the first step. There will be few if any semi-autos sold in the state if this passes. That will put a lot of gun businesses out of business, and be the first step towards a total handgun ban. The legislature is not truly reflective of the electoral body because of the heavy gerrymandering in the state, and most of them would be fine with a total handgun ban.
Arnie would be smart to exercise his veto power on this one.
Arnie would be smart to exercise his veto power on this one.
pax said:
Just curious. Most people who trash the state haven't even been here. I'm less annoyed when critical people have at least visited or like yourself actually lived here.
However, isn't sort of hypocritical of you to be condemning when you decided to jump ship yourself. I realize you stated that you left before you became a gunny, but in all honesty I doubt if that would hvae changed anything. After all what is breeding the "environment" is the same thing responsible for these dumb gun laws.
Stage 2 ~
Again, I wasn't bashing the state. I was bashing only those gun owners who didn't and won't get off their duffs and do what needs to be done when crud like this comes up.
The environment we chose not to rear our children in is the hyper self centered, "money is everything" life in the fast lane that is the Bay Area. That lifestyle is certainly not unique to anti-gunners (plenty of gun nuts join it happily), and we opted to quit that rat race so that our children wouldn't grow up to be rats. Our antipathy to that whole lifestyle would probably have been just as decisive even after becoming politically active gun owners, and if I were faced with the same choice today I would do the same thing again. Only difference now is that I'd probably feel guilty for abandoning my fellow gun nuts when I left the state for the same basic reasons that chased me out back then.
pax
Again, I wasn't bashing the state. I was bashing only those gun owners who didn't and won't get off their duffs and do what needs to be done when crud like this comes up.
The environment we chose not to rear our children in is the hyper self centered, "money is everything" life in the fast lane that is the Bay Area. That lifestyle is certainly not unique to anti-gunners (plenty of gun nuts join it happily), and we opted to quit that rat race so that our children wouldn't grow up to be rats. Our antipathy to that whole lifestyle would probably have been just as decisive even after becoming politically active gun owners, and if I were faced with the same choice today I would do the same thing again. Only difference now is that I'd probably feel guilty for abandoning my fellow gun nuts when I left the state for the same basic reasons that chased me out back then.
pax
Liberal Gun Nut
Member
- Joined
- Jul 27, 2006
- Messages
- 388
Dude it is because California is highly urban (which tends to be more liberal) and has a very substantial recent immigrant population. 99% of these immigrants come from places where civilian ownership of guns is rare and people have less gun rights than we do here. (1% of the immigrants here come from a tiny number of countries, like Switzerland, that have more gun rights than we have.)
We can fix this by more outreach but it will not be quick or easy.
We can fix this by more outreach but it will not be quick or easy.
I understand what you are saying pax, but in reality, doing nothing is no worse than leaving. Both are methods of giving up. I don't see how you can be so hacked off at Cali gun owners who are tired of fighting a pretty much unwinable battle when you decided to jump ship yourself.
If anything, its arguably worse since those who have stayed have had to live with the ramifications, while yourself and others who have left get to enjoy the perks of free society.
Some of us, like myself, are stubborn or have access that normal folks don't and are trying to use that to our advantage. I'm not going to begrudge others who have spent years trying to make things right and finally have decided to just look out for number 1 since everything else has essentially be spitting into the wind. Its easy to say we should all fight the good fight when you know you can go out tomorrow and pick up an AK or an AR, several hi-caps, and do it all in your car that doesn't have ridiculous smog restrictions that rob both performance and fuel economy. After all, even though you lived here, by your own admission you weren't really affected by these laws since you weren't a shooter.
If anything, its arguably worse since those who have stayed have had to live with the ramifications, while yourself and others who have left get to enjoy the perks of free society.
Some of us, like myself, are stubborn or have access that normal folks don't and are trying to use that to our advantage. I'm not going to begrudge others who have spent years trying to make things right and finally have decided to just look out for number 1 since everything else has essentially be spitting into the wind. Its easy to say we should all fight the good fight when you know you can go out tomorrow and pick up an AK or an AR, several hi-caps, and do it all in your car that doesn't have ridiculous smog restrictions that rob both performance and fuel economy. After all, even though you lived here, by your own admission you weren't really affected by these laws since you weren't a shooter.
mindwip
Member
I heard ammo companys said that they wont sell ammo in CAL at all(including to LEOs) if this passed has anyone else heard that ammo companys wont sell to cal.??
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
mindwip, odds are that the capital cost of this new equipment is far above anything rational for a manufacturer. It would have to be amortized by the volume of sales at some very-high price--and a very-high price would cut sales. So, odds are against anybody bothering, unless the California government authorizes a budget item to buy the equipment, hire the personnel and produce this ammo.
Best way, now, to fight this deal is to do some homework about the costs involved, contact some manufacturers, and then explain the numbers to the governor. "Crooks will shift to revolvers, sir, meaning more thefts of revolvers. The costs to your police for ammunition for training and carry will rise by $XXX tax dollars per year. Further, the availability of this ammunition will be notably reduced."
Oh: Is the California Legislature bi-cameral? Is there a House of Representatives as well as a Senate? If so, what's going on there in this matter?
Art
Best way, now, to fight this deal is to do some homework about the costs involved, contact some manufacturers, and then explain the numbers to the governor. "Crooks will shift to revolvers, sir, meaning more thefts of revolvers. The costs to your police for ammunition for training and carry will rise by $XXX tax dollars per year. Further, the availability of this ammunition will be notably reduced."
Oh: Is the California Legislature bi-cameral? Is there a House of Representatives as well as a Senate? If so, what's going on there in this matter?
Art
longeyes
member
Senate & Assembly.
PinnedAndRecessed
member
- Joined
- Aug 10, 2004
- Messages
- 1,541
Art, as far as I know, it goes back to the Kal state assembly.
Maybe by then gun manufacturers will have heard of the bill and will get involved.
And if the NRA gets involved (like they did with the San Fransicko gun ban), it might be defeated.
Plus, they've also got to get by arnold. He just might veto it. Doubtful, but he might.
Maybe by then gun manufacturers will have heard of the bill and will get involved.
And if the NRA gets involved (like they did with the San Fransicko gun ban), it might be defeated.
Plus, they've also got to get by arnold. He just might veto it. Doubtful, but he might.
Last edited:
ConstitutionCowboy
member
I'd Ask Those Legislators...
...if there is going to be a trade off with those "stamps" to the tune of removing restrictions and issuing more carry permits.( Disclaimer: The Second Amendment notwithstanding for the sake of discussion. ) After all, it is supposed to make everyone safer, isn't it? It'd be very interesting to watch them choke on that one!
Woody
"Revolution is the Right of the People to preserve or restore Freedom. Those vested with power should never deprive the People the means, for it may compel such recourse." B.E.Wood
...if there is going to be a trade off with those "stamps" to the tune of removing restrictions and issuing more carry permits.( Disclaimer: The Second Amendment notwithstanding for the sake of discussion. ) After all, it is supposed to make everyone safer, isn't it? It'd be very interesting to watch them choke on that one!
Woody
"Revolution is the Right of the People to preserve or restore Freedom. Those vested with power should never deprive the People the means, for it may compel such recourse." B.E.Wood
Car Knocker
Member
Why would this affect the ammo companies?
It is the guns themselves that will impart the markings to the case, not the ammo companies. There is nothing special done to the ammo by the manufacturers. Or did I miss something? megatronrules
Member
This is absurd all a criminal would have to do is simply pick up the shell casings. And even if he diddn't how is finding the legel owner of the handgun gonna help? Hello! what if the gun is stolen like most guns used in crime are? This is just another way to tag and bag every legel gun owner in california and make a lisr of legelly held handguns.
Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Sorry, Car Knocker. I guess I was thinking of some previous California rhetoric from the Lege about etching the cartridge cases...
Art
Art
bg
Member
^^^ Yes there was this little sweetheart Art. It was
SB357. We were & are getting kicked in the front as
well as the back when it comes to anti-gun bills.
However this one went where the rest should follow.
File 13.
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=sb357&year=2006
Now if the majority party up in Sac spent just 1/2 of
their time trying to stop illegal immigration and gang
activity as they do on gun banishment bills ,
we'd more than likely have a MUCH safer state.
There's serious talk of building hi rises & casinos down there
around the El Centro area pretty soon. And it is definitely a blue
area. Mostly Hispanic since ag is a big business down there
for the time being and it's so close to the border.
SB357. We were & are getting kicked in the front as
well as the back when it comes to anti-gun bills.
However this one went where the rest should follow.
File 13.
http://nramemberscouncils.com/legs.shtml?summary=sb357&year=2006
Now if the majority party up in Sac spent just 1/2 of
their time trying to stop illegal immigration and gang
activity as they do on gun banishment bills ,
we'd more than likely have a MUCH safer state.
Not for long. Imperial Valley, El Centro is blowing up !ArmedBear said:
There's serious talk of building hi rises & casinos down there
around the El Centro area pretty soon. And it is definitely a blue
area. Mostly Hispanic since ag is a big business down there
for the time being and it's so close to the border.
Can'thavenuthingood
Member
I think the only affect this will have on ammo companies is an increase in sales.
How many microstamps will be allowed on one case?
Have to but only new unfired ammo.
Recycle programs will have to be enhanced and enlarged to handle fired brass as its going to be rendered as toxic materials by the state.
New regs will be installed at gun ranges to preclude the mishandling of fired brass. This will keep microstamped brass out of the hands of criminals and not implicate the innocent.
I've been calling and writing my reps in Sacramento. My Assembly person (Nicole Parra) is a Democrat but progun. Doesn't matter as being from podunkville, her vote is meaningless. The D just adds to the majority.
Vick
How many microstamps will be allowed on one case?
Have to but only new unfired ammo.
Recycle programs will have to be enhanced and enlarged to handle fired brass as its going to be rendered as toxic materials by the state.
New regs will be installed at gun ranges to preclude the mishandling of fired brass. This will keep microstamped brass out of the hands of criminals and not implicate the innocent.
I've been calling and writing my reps in Sacramento. My Assembly person (Nicole Parra) is a Democrat but progun. Doesn't matter as being from podunkville, her vote is meaningless. The D just adds to the majority.
Vick
Can'thavenuthingood
Member
This all starts way back, looks like 1999 and affects ALL weapons buyers through increased costs across the board.
Vick
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_cfa_20050627_154450_sen_comm.html
AB 352 (Koretz)
As Amended May 16, 2005
Hearing date: June 28, 2005
Penal Code
SH:br
SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARMS - UNSAFE HANDGUN REQUIREMENTS
MICROSTAMPING
HISTORY
Source: Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
Prior Legislation: SB 15 (Polanco) - Ch. 248, Stats. 1999
Support: Attorney General; Women Against Gun Violence; Million
Mom March; Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence;
Nevada County and Sacramento Valley Chapter of the
Million Mom March; Legal Community Against Violence;
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence; California Chapter of
the American College of Emergency Physicians; Orange
County Citizens for the Prevention of Gun Violence;
Sacramento Chapter of Physicians for Social
Responsibility; California Alliance for Consumer
Protection; Friends Committee on Legislation of CA;
Sheriff of Alameda County; Fresno Chief of Police;
Santa Anna Chief of Police; Los Angeles County
Sheriff's Department; LA City Attorney; Violence
Prevention Coalition of Orange County
Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc indicates that:
By way of a concrete example [of logistical
concerns] the slide assemblies (which necessarily
would contain the microscopic array) for our
centerfire pistols are manufactured on one line
and the frames (which are serialized in accordance
with BATFE regulations) are manufactured on a
separate line. Eventually, these two assemblies
are married to produce a functioning firearm.
Under AB 352, we would somehow have to track these
two assemblies and mate them with each other,
which is totally unworkable under our current
manufacturing processes. We would somehow have to
find a way to reconstruct our entire manufacturing
lines to account for this requirement. This, of
course, does not address issues raised by pistols
that are reworked during the manufacturing
process, pistols that are returned for service and
must have parts replaced, etc. Suffice it to say
that we could provide many examples of how the
implementation of this untested and highly
questionable technology would impose an enormous
financial and logistical burden on manufacturers.
Such a burden, of course, necessarily would be
passed along to law-abiding citizens in the form of
increased prices.
Vick
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/asm/ab_0351-0400/ab_352_cfa_20050627_154450_sen_comm.html
AB 352 (Koretz)
As Amended May 16, 2005
Hearing date: June 28, 2005
Penal Code
SH:br
SEMIAUTOMATIC FIREARMS - UNSAFE HANDGUN REQUIREMENTS
MICROSTAMPING
HISTORY
Source: Coalition to Stop Gun Violence
Prior Legislation: SB 15 (Polanco) - Ch. 248, Stats. 1999
Support: Attorney General; Women Against Gun Violence; Million
Mom March; Brady Campaign To Prevent Gun Violence;
Nevada County and Sacramento Valley Chapter of the
Million Mom March; Legal Community Against Violence;
Coalition to Stop Gun Violence; California Chapter of
the American College of Emergency Physicians; Orange
County Citizens for the Prevention of Gun Violence;
Sacramento Chapter of Physicians for Social
Responsibility; California Alliance for Consumer
Protection; Friends Committee on Legislation of CA;
Sheriff of Alameda County; Fresno Chief of Police;
Santa Anna Chief of Police; Los Angeles County
Sheriff's Department; LA City Attorney; Violence
Prevention Coalition of Orange County
Sturm, Ruger and Co., Inc indicates that:
By way of a concrete example [of logistical
concerns] the slide assemblies (which necessarily
would contain the microscopic array) for our
centerfire pistols are manufactured on one line
and the frames (which are serialized in accordance
with BATFE regulations) are manufactured on a
separate line. Eventually, these two assemblies
are married to produce a functioning firearm.
Under AB 352, we would somehow have to track these
two assemblies and mate them with each other,
which is totally unworkable under our current
manufacturing processes. We would somehow have to
find a way to reconstruct our entire manufacturing
lines to account for this requirement. This, of
course, does not address issues raised by pistols
that are reworked during the manufacturing
process, pistols that are returned for service and
must have parts replaced, etc. Suffice it to say
that we could provide many examples of how the
implementation of this untested and highly
questionable technology would impose an enormous
financial and logistical burden on manufacturers.
Such a burden, of course, necessarily would be
passed along to law-abiding citizens in the form of
increased prices.
History Prof
Member
UNITE WITH LIKE MINDED GROUPS
My wife is from CA, so my in-laws are always forwarding us political updates on such things as CA Legislatures anti-Christian behavior and its pro-gay agenda.
Gun owners should unite with family groups and Christian groups. You may disagree with them. You may be in favor of gay marriage, even if you're a gun owner. You might not be a Christian. But overall, traditional family groups, Christian groups and RKBA groups are up against the SAME PEOPLE in the state legislature. UNITE with them. Even if you don't agree with them on their issues, I guarantee you that most Christians and traditional familiy advocates WILL agree with YOU on RKBA!
But... but.... that would be ILLEGAL! No one would do that, would they?
My wife is from CA, so my in-laws are always forwarding us political updates on such things as CA Legislatures anti-Christian behavior and its pro-gay agenda.
Gun owners should unite with family groups and Christian groups. You may disagree with them. You may be in favor of gay marriage, even if you're a gun owner. You might not be a Christian. But overall, traditional family groups, Christian groups and RKBA groups are up against the SAME PEOPLE in the state legislature. UNITE with them. Even if you don't agree with them on their issues, I guarantee you that most Christians and traditional familiy advocates WILL agree with YOU on RKBA!
Don't forget that five minutes and one of these:
will eliminate any markings.
But... but.... that would be ILLEGAL! No one would do that, would they?
Mr.V.
Member
mindwip and Art Eatman --
I think there's a bit of confusion. Mindwip, the bill in question doesn't affect the ammunition itself, it affects the guns. This is Koretz's "microstamping bill" where the gun's firing pin (or similar mechanism) has to make a marking on the casing with the serial number of the gun.
There was, last year, a bill which stalled in the appropriations committee that was the "ammunition serialization bill" (also by Koretz). This bill was really freaky. It would have demanded that each bullet & casing have a unique serial number. Also it would have made criminal keeping ammunition that was not serialized for more than 5 years. Luckily it hasn't reared its ugly head this year...yet. Looks as though Koretz is testing the water with the governer so he doesn't waste twice the effort.
What REALLY sucks? Koretz is my representative
I think there's a bit of confusion. Mindwip, the bill in question doesn't affect the ammunition itself, it affects the guns. This is Koretz's "microstamping bill" where the gun's firing pin (or similar mechanism) has to make a marking on the casing with the serial number of the gun.
There was, last year, a bill which stalled in the appropriations committee that was the "ammunition serialization bill" (also by Koretz). This bill was really freaky. It would have demanded that each bullet & casing have a unique serial number. Also it would have made criminal keeping ammunition that was not serialized for more than 5 years. Luckily it hasn't reared its ugly head this year...yet. Looks as though Koretz is testing the water with the governer so he doesn't waste twice the effort.
What REALLY sucks? Koretz is my representative
mindwip
Member
Thanks for clearing that up, i got confused
armoredman
Member
I would have to disagree, that the nation follows California. We got rid of our AWB, Cali's got worse. We sell 50 cal rifles, Cali does not. Only a few states don't have Shall Issue CCW permits, like Cali. We recognize other state permits more often than not around the US, Cali does not.
Basically, Cali restrictions get worse and worse, while the majority of the rest of the nation tends to get better for gun owners. Katrina style confiscation ban laws, etc, would be UNHEARD of in Cali.
So, I respectfully submit, the rest of the nation sees what California does, and wants no part of it.
Basically, Cali restrictions get worse and worse, while the majority of the rest of the nation tends to get better for gun owners. Katrina style confiscation ban laws, etc, would be UNHEARD of in Cali.
So, I respectfully submit, the rest of the nation sees what California does, and wants no part of it.
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