"Can I look in the vehicle?" wife & kids present

[anotherKevin]

I rarely travel extensively without the family with me. I have the guide to firearms laws in my vehicle and consult it each time I cross the state line to be in compliance, stowing or un-stowing accordingly.

My question is, if an officer stops us, and asks "mind if I take a look in your vehicle?" what is the most appropriate response, given that there are children and a wife in the car?

I get that I can assert my rights, and not consent, but if they then ask "are there any weapons?" the answer will be affirmative, secured guns, some knives (camping equipment, but often with blades longer than 3" though not on my person). Does the presence of weapons render my consent inneffective any way? The last thing I want to do is turn a stop into some ordeal for the family when I break no laws that I'm aware of (no drugs, open containers, incorrectly stored firearms, speeding).

 

[jlbraun]

"mind if I take a look in your vehicle?"

"Why, officer? Is there a problem?"

"No problem, I just want to take a look."

"If there's no problem, why do you want to search my car?"

"Are there any weapons in the car?"

(edited, see reply below) "I understand that you are trying to do your job, sir, but I do not consent to a search."

"Everyone out of the car."

"OK."

(roll windows up, lock doors, get out of car)

Here is a position paper from a Utah DA regarding Terry frisks:
http://www.districtattorney.slco.org/html/news/uplink/vol6iss1.pdf

A frisk is not normally considered to be within
the scope of a routine traffic stop. The discovery of
evidence that results from a Terry frisk incident to a
traffic stop is one of the more common scenarios
reviewed by the Utah Appellate Courts. The United
States Supreme Court has long held that an officer
may perform a protective frisk during a lawful stop
when the officer reasonably believes a person is
armed and presently dangerous to the officer or
others.5 In addition to the requirement that an officer
justify the initial reason for a traffic stop, in order to
conduct a Terry Frisk, a law enforcement officer is
required to further articulate the justification for
conducting the protective frisk. Frisking as a matter of
routine cannot meet this standard. The sole purpose
for allowing a protective frisk is to protect the officer
and other prospective victims by neutralizing potential
weapons. A frisk cannot be used as an effort to
search for evidence or contraband other than
weapons.6 If a protective search goes beyond what is
necessary to determine if the suspect is armed, the
frisk will no longer be valid under Terry and its fruits
will be suppressed.7

 

[HonorsDaddy]

anotherKevin

The appropriate response is always "No". You decide how polite you wish that "no" to be.

Try to remember the police are NOT your friends. Not to bash our boys in blue, but you're not asking to look inside someone's vehicle because you're particularly interested in the interior design of their 1998 Ford Taurus Wagon.

 

[Henry Bowman]

"No, you may not."

You hiding something?

"No, sir. But I do not give permission to search the vehicle."

Everybody out of the car.

"Fine. Can they please stand away from the road in a safe place?"

 

[HonorsDaddy]

Thats the problem isnt it Henry?

Regardless of the response, if so desired, your life can be made increasingly more difficult until most people will simply say "Screw it, go ahead and look". What becomes really twisted is that your continued refusal to allow the search can be used as probable cause to obtain a warrant to do the search. You're kinda screwed either way.

Again - if so desired. Some in law enforcement will accept a polite "no" and realize you're not being difficult, just not going to tolerate a fishing trip.

 

[anotherKevin]

Everybody out of the car

Yeah, that's where it starts to get counter productive for me - wife and kids, remember?

 

[Wastemore]

You don't have to say anything...

"I understand you're just doing our job, sir.. but I do not consent to any search of my person or my vehicle."


Anything beyond a simple statement is too much talking.

 

[K3]

Tell 'em you don't consent. If he asks you to get out, do so and lock the door behind you. Tell him to get a warrant. Most times it's a random fishing expedition, and they can't articulate probable cause.

 

[REOIV]

If an officer asks to look in your vehicle you say, I don't mind as long as you have a warrant.

There is no reason a police officer needs to be snooping around in your car, and no reason to voluntarily let them do so.

If your gun is stowed wrong, or you can't have a blade that long in that state etc, what good does it do you to let him search your car and bust you?

The way I handle dealing with police officers is answer their questions, don't volunteer any extra information. Lock your car when you get out and never consent to any searches without a warrant. I don't care if they make me wait 3 hours for a warrant etc, they better provide one. If you haven't done anything wrong the officer will have to let you go since there is no way a Judge is going to give him a warrant to search a car based on his 'gut feeling.'

Make sure to get their badge number and name and be polite but firm and insist that if they want to look around they will need a warrant. And always ask if you are ok to go.

As long as you transport your firearms unloaded and locked in a case you should be in the clear.

This site covers traveling with a firearm quite well
http://www.nraila.org/GunLaws/FederalGunLaws.aspx?ID=59

 

[Mainsail]

You don't have to say anything...

"I understand you're just doing our job, sir.. but I do not consent to any search of my person or my vehicle."


Anything beyond a simple statement is too much talking.

Perfect.

If he asks you to get out, do so and lock the door behind you.

Those two replies are all this thread needs.

 

[jimmyraythomason]

Probable cause

"What becomes really twisted is that your continued refusal to allow the search can be used as probable cause to obtain a warrant to do the search. You're kinda screwed either way."
Sorry but refusing to allow a search is'nt "probable cause" in ANY state. Very few LEOs will wait for a judge to issue a warrant just for a "fishing trip".

 

[budney]

Everybody out of the car...

They can order you out of the car, for example for a Terry frisk, but that doesn't include the authority to search your car. If you leave your door open, that can be interpreted as consent to a search. Roll up all windows and shut and lock all doors when getting out of the car.

"I understand you're just doing our job, sir.. but I do not consent to any search of my person or my vehicle." Anything beyond a simple statement is too much talking.

Right. These guys are trained to get their way, and they're probably recording you on video. Try and joust with a cop, and (1) you'll probably tick him off royally, and (2) sooner or later you'll say stuff you really, really regret.

"Are there any weapons in the car?"

"They are stored in accordance with California Public Law 15, section 23a (or whatever), in a California-approved case, and are not loaded."

Never volunteer information. You just signed up for a Terry frisk, at the very least. But never lie to a cop, either. They'll probably catch you, and it'll get you in trouble. Best to answer a question with a question, such as, "What seems to be the problem, officer?" Or, "Am I being detained?" Or, "I'm on my way someplace very important. Am I free to go?"

--Len.

 

[Wayne G.]

"Not without a warrant"
Very cordially, but firm.

 

[209]

I tell my wife that constantly. No, you don't have to consent to a search of your car. Tell the nice officer, "No!" Be polite- be forceful- you can do both at the same time.

Same thing if an officer comes to the door. Deal with him/her at the door. Don't let them in the house. If they have a warrant, it's a different story.

 

[oobray]

It's amazing

It's really amazing to me the misconceptions about what LE can and cannot do (even among LE).

budney,

They can order you out of the car, for example for a Terry frisk, but that doesn't include the authority to search your car

Wrong.... Sort of. Under a Terry frisk, if you are in a vehicle, the U.S Supreme court has decided that an LEO can frisk your person for weapons, the court also said that the officer may "frisk" the vehicle. Which means he can look anywhere a weapon could reasonably be, as long as it is not a locked container or the trunk. The level of proof necessary to do this is reasonable suspicion. NOW, the refusal of consent CANNOT be qualified legally as reasonable suspicion. The officer will have to give articulable FACTS of why he was reasonably suspicious you were dangerous in order to justify to a DA or a judge why he frisked, you or your vehicle.

Never volunteer information. You just signed up for a Terry frisk,

wrong again. You don't even have to answer the officers questions if you don't want to. There are only two things a driver is REQUIRED to do when stopped by the police. That is produce a valid drivers license, proof of registration and insurance. THAT IS IT!!!! You can not say a single word if you do not wish to, and the officer CANNOT use this against you when articulating to a judge what the articulable facts were to lead him to believe you were dangerous.

REOIV,

If an officer asks to look in your vehicle you say, I don't mind as long as you have a warrant.

This is also wrong. LEO do NOT need a search warrant to search a motorvehicle. This is stated by the supreme court case Carroll vs U.S (1925)
The officer needs to prove probable cause (which is typically deemed 50% certainty) to search a motor vehicle. Again, there must be articulable facts that the officer will give a DA or judge otherwise whatever case they have will be thrown out.

Lock your car when you get out and never consent to any searches without a warrant.

That doesn't matter either. If the officer develops (or believes he developed) probable cause, he can confiscate your keys, or forcibly enter your vehicle to search.

Remember everyone, there is a huge difference between a vehicle "frisk" and a vehicle "search". A search is anywhere were any contraband could be. Which is pretty much EVERYWHERE. The officer is required to have probable cause for this. However, a vehicle frisk means that the officer can look anywhere in the passenger compartment that could reasonably contain a WEAPON, that's it, so he can't look inside a cigarette pack. However, he could look in any unlocked containers, i.e a backpack or purse.<-- as long as it's still in the vehicle, so ladies, if you're asked to step out you should attempt to keep your purse, although the officer will likely tell you to leave it behind, and it will be "frisked".

I hope this cleared up all these exceptions. I am currently a grad student studying constitutional law so if anyone wants to get more info let me know.

 

[K3]

I hope this cleared up all these exceptions. I am currently a grad student studying constitutional law so if anyone wants to get more info let me know.

So that settles it!

So what exactly IS your advice? If a cop is on a fishing expedition and has no PC, which is very often the case, do you really think he's going to smash a window or demand keys if you lock your vehicle behind you?

Again tell him to get a warrant and that you can wait all day if need be. I'm not a betting man, but if I were, I'd say the money is on him giving up and telling you to get on your way and be careful. He'd much rather move on to the next sucker, as they may consent to his fishing trip.

Edit: I've been pulled over too many times for having a brick in my shoe. A couple years ago, I got stopped for speeding, and I had several loaded rifles on the front seat of the truck. Know what happened? He asked if I was going hunting. I told him I was and he said 'Good luck, get a bigun'.

BTW, you forgot about the old 'plain view' thingy. If he sees contraband in plain view, then boom: PC has been established. Stuff under a seat, in a bag, in the glove compartment, etc are not in plain view. He can't just go fishing in those honey holes because he feels like it. That is a SEARCH, and articulabe PC or a warrant are needed.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Yeah, that's where it starts to get counter productive for me - wife and kids, remember?

Sure. You will have to explain it to them later (or do it now so that later is just a refresher). Also, the family's presence is a deterrant to the LEO as well. He has to deal with several people out of the car and will be subject to faily high scrutiny for how the kids are treated and whether they are unnecessarily endangered. He may call for back-up, but the risk and consequences that he ultimately will get/find nothing increase also.

Just stay firm and polite: "No." Think of it as a lesson for you kids in just "saying no" when under a lot of pressure to cave.

 

[romma]

One thing I have noticed from personal experience and believe it or not from watching shows like COPS, is that they lead you to believe that they will go easier on you if you "cooperate" with them...

That is one of the reasons I suspect people allow them to search. The other main one is, that I somehow think people believe that if they pretend they have nothing to hide, then the police won't search as thoroughly.

Also, I believe that if you refuse consent to search, that you are probably in for one really loooooong traffic stop.

Hope you brought a snack bar with you!

 

[Henry Bowman]

This is stated by the supreme court case Carroll vs U.S (1925)
The officer needs to prove probable cause (which is typically deemed 50% certainty) to search a motor vehicle.

If he has PC, he doesn't need your permission. So don't give it. If he has to ask, the answer is no.

 

[kellyj00]

It's never a good idea to just say "No." if you do, you better give a better reason than "I don't see any reason for you to look in my car. I'm only speeding."

Was with a friend when he did that once. I even told my friend "hey, just let him take a quick look, you're not hiding anything." My friend wasn't into drugs or committing any crime at all, we were just teenagers who hated authority.

The policeman told us to "sit tight for a minute" and a few other police cars showed up on the side of this two lane highway. They then told us that we had to wait for a K9 unit to sniff the car before we could go anywhere. My friend was maintaining his original "No, you can't search my car. I was only speeding, there's no need for you to look at my car at all." At this point, I'm asking him "what are you hiding?" he's saying "nothing, just tired of police walking on everyone."

After another 30 minutes, a police dog unit came in from a neighboring town. The police pulled us out of the car, handcuffed both of us "for officer safety" and had their german shepherd give the car the longest sniff search in history. The k9 officer then said "looks clean, but he did stall near the trunk." to one of the other cops. The original cop, who is at this point just getting revenge against a couple of teenage rebels asks my friend for his keys, doesn't say anything else. Then, he lets himself into the trunk....looks around a bit...then walks back and asks "is there anything that we need to know about... if you lie to me I'm not going to make anything easy on you."
"no, like I said, there's nothing in there. You can't search my car!"
"We have probable cause with the K9 unit sniffing your trunk as positive for drugs. And the car smells like marijuana."
The car, most definitely did not smell like marijuana. Neither of us were into drugs.

He then went back to his trunk, pulled out a portable tool kit and pulled my friend's speakers out of their speaker box. He looked inside the box, then carefully put the screws back inside the box and left the speakers seperated. He then pulled out the spare tire, tested to see if it had air in it, bounced it a few times...then put it back. Then he came back and had my friend go off with another officer while he talked to me.

He started asking me all kinds of stupid stuff.... "How much weed did you guys smoke tonight?"
"none, I don't do drugs"
"ok, how much did your buddy do?"
"none that I know of. We both smoke cigarettes, that's it."
"Where's your buddy keeping his drugs?"
"There aren't any drugs that I know about."
"right, right....well, if you tell me where the drugs are I'll take the cuffs off and set you on your way. You said you don't smoke the stuff, so I'm sure it's not yours. So where's the goods?"
"I don't know of any, officer. Seriously, my friend is just a giant a-hole. He's got that whole rebel without a cause thing going on, we're not doing anything wrong. I'm a good guy, and as far as I know, my friend is a good guy too."
"If you're such good guys, why do you care if we look in your car?"
"I don't, he did... it's his car. I couldn't care less if you look through it or search me even. I tell ya, i'm not into anything illegal."

they put us in the back of the first police car together. I was cussing at him at this point for being so silly about letting them search. The other cops left and the original policeman came back and uncuffed us, then sent us on our way with a $80 speeding ticket and some disconnected speakers. Took two hours...from 9 pm to just before 11pm for all this to happen. Definitely wasn't worth it.

Ever since that incident I say "I'm a CCW holder, there is a gun in the console. Feel free to search the vehicle at any time for anything you would like, the only thing of concern is the pistol in my console/glove box." And I have NEVER had a cop search my vehicle. One time, the policeman actually said "let me see your licence." "do you want my insurance or registration?" "Nah, this will cover it. I'll be right back." went and ran them, came back to my car and said "drive safe. have a good night." took all of 3 minutes at most... half a cigarette.

I don't mess with cops. I'm respectful and they respect me. I also, however, never ever break the law...except for speeding or letting a parking meter run out. ooops, gotta go!

 

[Jim Diver]

This video should answer your questions.

 

[Jim Diver]

Ever since that incident I say "I'm a CCW holder, there is a gun in the console. Feel free to search the vehicle at any time for anything you would like, the only thing of concern is the pistol in my console/glove box."

Bad idea. Never give permission. How do you know he is not a dirty cop and plants something in your car because he does not like your attitude.

No matter how much crap they put you through, refuse consent. Anything less and they win and everyone else loses... They walk away knowing that if they just push that much harder they will get what they want and you lose more of your rights.

 

[Henry Bowman]

It's a shame you didn't learn from your friend's example, Kelly. But it's your choice for you, my choice for me.

No matter how much crap they put you through, refuse consent. Anything less and they win and everyone else loses... They walk away knowing that if they just push that much harder they will get what they want and you lose more of your rights.

And if they have PC, they don't need your permission anyway.

 

[waterhouse]

true story:

"May I search your vehicle?"

"No."

"Are you hiding something?"

"No, Sir. I just feel that if we don't exercise our Constitutional rights we might forget that we have them."

"OK."

This situation will of course vary depending on the officer, so there is no right way to do it, other than say "No."

If he has PC, he doesn't need your permission. So don't give it. If he has to ask, the answer is no.

+1

What becomes really twisted is that your continued refusal to allow the search can be used as probable cause to obtain a warrant to do the search.

Nope. Exercising your rights cannot be used as an articulable fact in determining PC.

 

[Meathook]

I don't care if it is my wife, kids, grandma, grandpa and the dog I am not giving anyone consent to search my home or my car for any reason.

They may do it anyway but they will do it without my consent and that is one more tool in a lawyers tool bag if things go south.

Just some thoughts:

Do you ever drive your kids friends home?

How about a coworker or a neighbor?

Ever take your car to a garage to be fixed did the mechanic drive it?

Do you know if anything fell out of their pockets or was placed somewhere in your vehicle?

Sure it is far fetched, and sure you and your kids don't hang out with "those" kind of people. BUT do you want to take that chance?

People always say I have nothing to hide so why not. If you have nothing to hide and have done nothing wrong then there is no reason for them to step all over you constitutional rights.

Just my .02