"Can I look in the vehicle?" wife & kids present

[jselvy]

There are two and only two answers.


Answer #1: Refuse the search and take your chances like a free man.

Answer #2: Knuckle under and give up your rights for the sake of your wife and kids.

I don't know about your wife, but mine would be all kinds of angry if I used her as an excuse to knuckle under.

Jefferson

 

[nemoaz]

So much incorrect advise, so little time.

Please expand. My understanding is that you can lock the vehicle behind you, and he can't force you to open it. He can peer in the windows all he likes, but he can't search the vehicle. .

Of course he can force you to open it or open it himself if he has the appropriate suspicion. He does not ever need a warrant to search a car, EVER. That's been the law for well over 50 years, so anyone who says this doesn't have the first clue about the law.

And locked doors or locked boxes or whatever are no impediment. He can open them too, although some agencies have stricter policies regarding destructive searches.

Having removed you from it and frisked you, you no longer pose a danger to the officer, which is the purpose of a Terry frisk

Completely wrong, in either a house or a car. If he had reasonable suspicion, he can frisk you and the car (meaning generally the passenger compartment but not the trunk unless there is access back there from the passenger complartment). Same deal in a house. It doesn't matter if you are cuffed and removed before or after the frisk of the house or car.

1. Most appropriate response to "can I search the car?"=>"No. Am I free to leave?"
2. Are there any weapons in the car? "Am I free to leave?"

Of course you aren't free to leave. You have been detained for a speeding violation or whatever. Why do you think the red lights are on and you are stopped by the road.

Well, not to hijack but let me ask a slightly different question. What if a cop gets so physically out of line that you wind up defending yourself by stomping his or her ass so to the point he or she is no longer able to continue to be a threat?

Good luck. You're not the first big mouth with that idea. So far, they are all winless.

he was driving his own car with three friends in the vehicle. friend #1 reaches down and finds a plastic baggy with a white substance inside it, says "hey, what's this?" my brother, confused and beginning to get upset, says something like "uh...beats me..."

He probably wouldn't have been charged, without more, meaning fingerprints or whatever. Just having something in your car isn't possession unless the item is so conspicuous that you had to have known it was there.

"My sister, who serves as our family attorney, says that I'm never supposed to waive any rights. So, sir, I suggest that you get a warrant,

Well, your sister must be a half-arsed divorce attorney who barely passed the bar or she'd know that no officer ever needs a warrant for a car.

I've heard horror stories of people allowing a search...Seats cut open, door panels ripped off, carpet pulled up, etc.

Yeah, I've heard that Nixon killed Kennedy and that the CIA created AIDS to kill blacks and homos. This isn't going to happen unless a dog hits on your car or you have a history of drug smuggling. And in any event, they will pay for the damage if nothing is found. And no, it isn't a "black mark" on the officer's file unless they have a gob of them. Had a cute quote from drug smuggler (several prior convictions) a few days ago-- after the dog hit on her car-- "No way. I just had it detailed!" Probably needs to go to a better detailer.

If he has PC, he doesn't need your permission. So don't give it. If he has to ask, the answer is no.

Not really. Even with a warrant to search a house or anything else (computers etc.), cops are trained to ask for permission first. If there is no danger to the officers or that the evidence will be destroyed, then it's just more professional to ask first and, as someone else correctly pointed out, consent negates any later PC arguments.

Now, let me say that demeanor is important...whether you consent or refuse. If you seem like a shiitebag, the cop will work harder at hassling you or searching you. Cops aren't necessarily good at determining real dirtbags from you paranoid tinfoil-hat types. If you seem like an honest guy who is in a hurry, you'll get a cursory glance or none at all. I've often asked for consent to search (or whether they will consent to a polygraph) just to see the reaction of the person.

 

[Mumwaldee]

Now, let me say that demeanor is important

Yeah, sounding like a rude know-it-all douchebag would probably have negative results. You must be an expert.

 

[Outlaws]

double post

 

[Outlaws]

Now, let me say that demeanor is important

Who is Holier than Thou poster? So much incorrect information I wanna puke. Just because a cop asks to search your home or car doesn't mean he can or will if you say no. That whole post painted a picture of someone cowering in the fetal position. There is nothing wrong with resisting authority on the grounds of liberty. I have nothing to hide in my vehicles, but I will be damned if the .gov is just gonna snoop around on a whim without some sort of fight no matter how small.

If you give the .gov a fish, they become the gestapo. If you teach the .gov to shove it, they will still become the gestapo, but at least their hands will be tied.

 

[Tomcat47]

I have never had any probems. Always identified that I was carrying! Met some nice cops, however one has never asked to search my vehicle.

I think I would say not without a warrant. Not to be an a@!, but f I am innocent I will not enjoy being looked at as a criminal over a simple traffic violation.(and not to mention my license is gonna tell an officer of any serious offenses I have had)

There are also those officers who hate those of us who carry, and will attempt to be an A@! there self. In that instance I would call for legal counsel to oversee the search if they obtained a warrant!

It is really a sad situation...
1. I think that all 50 states should share the same set of rules for carry, or that those rules have portabiity from your home state.
2. The knife thing really P!@#%* me off. WHY can a man not carry a flippin knife in this country.
3. That more people like us FIGHT to get these laws passed in this country.

When I was young I went everywhere with a 9" Uncle Henry hunting knife on my side....In school all of us had an Old Timer or something......And as many fights as I seen in school no one ever got cut! and both of them had one most of the time. I can not believe we have allowed this country to get where we are.

geez!

 

[dralarms]

Well if I get stopped and they ask to search my stuff, I'll say no. No to be a smart a$$ but I run an alarm business and have customer records with personal data in them in my truck all the time. I'll simply tell them I have sensitive data in there and no they can't rummage through my customers info. They are more than welcome to get their drug dog and "check" out the truck. they won't find anything since I don't use, sell or manufacture.

And here in TN you had better tell the officer right off if you are carrying, now it doesn't have to be a "verbal" exchange, I just hand them my DL and my carry permit at the same time.

And if they happen to stop me while pulling my work trailer and want to search then the answer is also no. "Those are my tools and supplies for work" again get the drug dog.

I do nothing with an attitude, when I am stopped the officer knows who I am before he even gets the lights on (around here anyway), and I guess that's why I've not been asked to be searched.

I don't know the "law" concerning searches but if you act like a wisea$$ or act suspicious (jumping around in the car, ETC, then you will probably be subject to a search.

If you act like somebody, and treat the officer like somebody then unless they have a reason you will never be asked to be searched.

 

[Bigjake]

dralarms,

same in ohio. You get pulled over, the FIRST thing outa your mouth should be along the lines of, "officer, I have a legally concealed weapon, what would you like me to do with it". no beating around the bush there.

even after letting them know I'm carrying (which they are already aware of from running my plates) They still aren't getting my consent.

 

[BHPshooter]

I don't mess with cops. I'm respectful and they respect me.

Ah, yes... the whole "If I'm nice to the world, the world will be nice to me," line of thinking. It's kind of admirable, and cute...

...And complete horse crap.

The police in my town are infamous for being so badge-heavy that it would be funny, if only it wasn't. Maybe that isn't the case in your area, I don't know. Regardless, there's no point having rights if you don't use them, and you essentially have NO rights when you forfeit them.

Consent at your own risk.
Wes

 

[Neo-Luddite]

The thing is, how often does an otherwise rational and sane LEO want to search a family on vacation? I mean, unless you're driving a Patridge Family bus or decked out like drug-zonked hippies, the Manson family--does it REALLY come up?


I've had my vehicle searched once--when I was 22 or so--and the Chicago cop didn't ask---he threw me in cuffs and put me in the back of his car. When finished, and un-cuffing me, he polietly told me to 'get the f--- outa here'. I had stopped at a McDonalds late at night to use the bathroom. I was guilty of being white on the south side. But I digress...

You say no, you may not. No song and dance--just no. You don't need a reason. You don't 'buckle under' for the kids--so they get used to the idea of having their rights violated?

But as I said, I've thought about this--especially because I always travel armed. It doesn't come up--and really, most of the time, it shouldn't. There will always be exceptions, but most cops are very NOT interested in pulling the law abiding over--it just doesn't serve their interests.

I don't know--maybe I'm 'lucky' in not having lots of problems being searched. That time when I was a kid in Chicago, I was in a place where I didn't belong--I just couldn't sleep and had gone for a ride in the city. It was a good life lesson on 'the way things oughta be' and how they are in practice.

Still, we don't vacation or visit Chicago.

 

[nemoaz]

Who is Holier than Thou poster? So much incorrect information I wanna puke.

Who said Holier than Thou? Note that I said demeanor is important... whether you consent or not. Puke all you want. Cite a single case that supports some other proposition than what I said. And demand a warrant all you want. The officer is going to search if he feels he has PC. And you can scream about a warrant to whomever you want. I promise you that you won't get anywhere.

The thing is, how often does an otherwise rational and sane LEO want to search a family on vacation? I mean, unless you're driving a Patridge Family bus or decked out like drug-zonked hippies, the Manson family--does it REALLY come up?

+1. Makes you wonder what some of these act like in public, doesn't it?

 

[precisionshootist]

My plan if asked to search my vehicle is to answer No I do not consent.
If asked to step out of the car I will roll up the window, leave the keys in the ingnition, and lock the keys in the vehicle. This is well rehearsed to look natural. At this point they would have to break in to the vehicle for a search.

questions like
have you been drinking?
where are you heading?
do you have any weapons?
were you just at "insert bar"?

with polite tone
"I will not answer any questions without my attorney present"

these are likely the last words they will hear from my mouth until court.

 

[Outlaws]

stupid double posting on editing.

 

[Outlaws]

Who said Holier than Thou? Note that I said demeanor is important... whether you consent or not. Puke all you want. Cite a single case that supports some other proposition than what I said. And demand a warrant all you want. The officer is going to search if he feels he has PC. And you can scream about a warrant to whomever you want. I promise you that you won't get anywhere.

There are these things called cameras in cop cars now. See, when you say, "no, you may not search my vehicle," and they do it anyways, you can make a big stink about it because it will be on camera that the cop had zero probable cause...assuming he didn't actually have probable cause.

There is a thing called rights, which a lot of people seem to have forgotten. Its too bad, those people screw it up for everyone else. The government isn't your friend. I don't let my enemies in my house.

 

[precisionshootist]

nemoaz

You will fit in quite well in the soon to be nanny state.

 

[Zundfolge]

they put us in the back of the first police car together. I was cussing at him at this point for being so silly about letting them search.

Methinks your anger was grossly misplaced. The cops done wrong.

But your story does bring up an issue the original poster hasn't considered, and thats that two teenage "hooligans" are significantly more likely to be hassled than Ward, June, Wally and The Beaver.

Back in my younger days I got pulled over for very minor (and I believe made up) offenses because I was driving a '69 Mustang and had long hair. Years later when I was driving a sedan and was all clean cut and respectable looking I was actually let off with a warning for serious speeding.

Age and respectable appearance go a real long way with most cops.


All that said, I'd rather be inconvenienced than make it easy for cops to violate our basic liberties.

If asked; "You mind if I search your car?" My response will be polite and direct "No, I do not consent to a search." If the officer presses the issue or begs I'll simply repeat the same "No, I do not consent to a search."

If the officer pulls the "Why? Do you have something to hide?" line, I may at that point simply state that constitutional rights are worthless if they are not exercised.


Some arrogant cop that is insistent on searching my vehicle because he doesn't like to be told no is going to do whatever the hell he wants to anyway and find some BS way of covering his backside, but I will take it up with his superiors (which depending on the department will either do absolutely nothing, or seriously harm his career ... more likely nothing).

While I'm not just going to hand over the keys, bend over and let them do whatever they want, I'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate on constitutional law at the side of the road.

 

[Wastemore]

I'm not going to get into a long drawn out debate on constitutional law at the side of the road.

I won't even get into a long drawn out debate with LE anywhere. It usually does no good- they're almost always right, just ask them.

 

[Skibane]

Why would you have to turn on the ignition? There is an "accessory" feature on ever car made in at least the last 50 years. When you are pulled over, turn off the car and leave it on that. The windows will work.

On my vehicle (and I suspect many others, too), the ignition switch has to be in the "run" position in order for the power windows to work - the "accessory" position won't cut it.

So, as soon as you comply with an officer's request to turn off the engine, you can no longer roll up the windows.

 

[General Geoff]

Umm, you can turn the key to the "on" position without starting the engine.

 

[Hoppy590]

"mind if i look in your vechicle?"
"mind if i pee in your shoe?"

 

[TCB in TN]

So do you get out of the car to talk to the cop? Do you roll up the windows before getting out?

Why are your windows rolled all the way down. In the summer I have the air on, a 1 to 1 and 1/2 in crack lets me talk to the officer. If he requests something (DL, Insurance, etc.) then I roll it down and hand it to him, roll it back up to the same 1 inch area and wait until I need to speak with him again. In the winter I have heat on so I do the same things. Spring and fall are dependant upon which would be most appropriate. I also don't turn off the ignition unless asked. If I am I usually explain that with my sinus problems I always have the heat or air on and so far I have never had any problems with that.

The one time I was asked to allow a search I refused, and asked why he wanted to. Got the ole your vehicle matches one used in a crime earlier today, if you allow me to search we can rule you out as a suspect (I had a 85 Silverado 1/2 ton, midnight blue and there were probably 50 similar to it in town) So I ask what time the crime was commited. He said about 8am, I told him that I was at work at 530 and gave him HRs number to call and verify my whereabout. He stuttered and finally wrote the number down, never did call HR though. Guess he was just fishing!

 

[Elza]

Outlaws: There is a thing called rights, which a lot of people seem to have forgotten.

And the cops ignore them. Then they are backed up by the department for which they work and, unfortunately, the courts. I suspect that out Constitutional rights are rapidly becoming little more than a fond memory.

Perhaps it’s just me but it seem like the most arrogant and condescending attitudes on the board come from the cop posters telling us ‘little people’ about OUR attitudes.

 

[nwilliams]

Officer:
"can I look in your vehicle sir?"

My response:
"Do you have reasonable suspicion officer?

Officer:
"I do"

My response:
"And that is.....?"

If the officer gives me a reasonable answer like "your car matches a description of a vehicle we're looking for" then I would just let them search and leave empty handed.

If I got a bulls*@t response like "you seem nervous" or "you look like you're hiding something" I would say..

"sure officer you may search, but I would like your name and badge number and I would like to be allowed to call my lawyer from my cell phone while you search, actually that's ok I'll just call him once you're done."

Yes I have a friend who is a lawyer and I carry his card with me right next to my ccl. He has given me lots of great advice on these types of situations over the years. His opinion and mine is to remain calm and non-offensive, but make sure the officer knows that you know your rights and are not afraid to stand up for them. Be polite but don't let the officer manipulate you, they are trained to break you down mentally until you are at their mercy.

 

[precisionshootist]

Officer:
"can I look in your vehicle sir?"

My response:
"Do you have reasonable suspicion officer?

Officer:
"I do"

My response:
"And that is.....?"

If the officer gives me a reasonable answer like "your car matches a description of a vehicle we're looking for" then I would just let them search and leave empty handed.

If I got a bulls*@t response like "you seem nervous" or "you look like you're hiding something" I would say..

"sure officer you may search, but I would like your name and badge number and I would like to be allowed to call my lawyer from my cell phone while you search, actually that's ok I'll just call him once you're done."

I'm not a lawyer, but this seems like to much talkin to me.

 

[ForeignDude]

This Is A Very Interesting Thread...

...and it's given me a few ideas.

For starters, I have no problem telling a police officer that I do not want him searching my car. However, I respect the job these guys have to do and the dangers they have to face with each traffic stop. I certainly don't want to establish an adversarial relationship when such is not necessary.

With that said, someone here suggested a possible line of defense at a traffic stop, if I want to keep it "nice". Like that poster, I know three people (admittedly not a trend) who had their cars ripped all to hell while cops searched for drugs. In all three cases, no dogs were involved, no drugs were found, but each individual gave consent for a search.

Hence, my scenario:

"Sir, can I search in your car?"
"No, officer I do not consent to a search."
"Why? Do you have something to hide?"
"No, I am a law-abiding citizen. But I do not want my property to be destroyed in a search. And, no, no amount of verbal assurance on your part will change my mind. If you want my consent, I will need a warrant justifying your search so that if damage occurs, I can be certain my damages will be covered."
"Sir, if we damage your car, we will make good on it." OR "Sir, your insurance will cover those damages."
"Officer, I am a military man -- I like things neat and tidy, and everything in writing. I do not consent to a search unless you supply a valid warrant."

Or some such. If he searches my car then based on "probable cause", that's a separate issue.

Anyway, this presumes that my wife and kids are with me and the officer asks to search the car. I, too, am of the opinion that that police are unlikely to initiate a request for a car search if they pull over a family.

If I am by myself, I may be more likely to refuse a search based on the assertion of essential constitutional rights -- it may mean more of a hassle, but only for me. I inted to teach my kids to assert their rights, but it is also important to teach them flexibility, so they can decide which approach best serves the specific situation in which they find themselves.