Cap and ball concealed carry?
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Mike Bellevue recently made an excellent youtube video on the subject of Black Powder firearms for self defense.
His recommendations seem to be on point but he did overlook one choice that would fit his criteria possibly better than the Remington and Colt open top models. The Uberti (Cattleman percussion cap version no longer made but still available ?) and Pietta (still made) cap and ball versions of the 1873 Colt with a 5 1/2 inch barrel. Keep in mind you cannot convert them to fire cartridges (deliberate by design for European market) and they will not work with any cartridge conversion cylinders.
Although the original antique 1873 Colt Armys fired .45 Colt cartridges loaded with black powder these copies have an even more antique firing system (percussion caps instead of black powder metal cartridges) and cannot fire metal cartridges.
I for one don't carry cap and ball arms for defense. Living in NYC with all the strict gun control laws having one of these loaded in the eyes of law will get you in as much trouble as carrying a glock (much better choice for defense) or other firearm with 10 rounds or less (magazine capacity restrictions as well) so it's moot as a last resort in most cases as far as the law is concerned in NYC.
I know a lot of STATES that would otherwise consider these antique firearms consider them to be same as modern cartridge firearms when carried loaded on ones person.
His recommendations seem to be on point but he did overlook one choice that would fit his criteria possibly better than the Remington and Colt open top models. The Uberti (Cattleman percussion cap version no longer made but still available ?) and Pietta (still made) cap and ball versions of the 1873 Colt with a 5 1/2 inch barrel. Keep in mind you cannot convert them to fire cartridges (deliberate by design for European market) and they will not work with any cartridge conversion cylinders.
Although the original antique 1873 Colt Armys fired .45 Colt cartridges loaded with black powder these copies have an even more antique firing system (percussion caps instead of black powder metal cartridges) and cannot fire metal cartridges.
I for one don't carry cap and ball arms for defense. Living in NYC with all the strict gun control laws having one of these loaded in the eyes of law will get you in as much trouble as carrying a glock (much better choice for defense) or other firearm with 10 rounds or less (magazine capacity restrictions as well) so it's moot as a last resort in most cases as far as the law is concerned in NYC.
I know a lot of STATES that would otherwise consider these antique firearms consider them to be same as modern cartridge firearms when carried loaded on ones person.
Patocazador
Member
It sounds like that lovely neighbor, Russia (USSR).
I typically agree with, and quite often point to, Mr Beliveau’s work. However the performance of these guns has always been something I was interested in when I got my first gun, a ROA. Everyone said it was no more powerful than a .38 Spl, and this is mostly true with your standard assortment of powders.
What I’ve generally seen is that, when using Swiss, Olde E, Triple 7, and sometimes Pyrodex P, a standard .36 generally gets roughly .38 Spl +P levels of performance with a ball. A fellow made a short for caliber .36 bullet that weighs 100-110 grns and with 20 grns of Olde E was at the lower .380 ACP end of performance. That’s about a max load in the little 1862 Colts. What I’ve seen with the .44 cal is that it’s generally in the low .45 ACP end with a bullet and high end .44 Spl with a ball.
I’m not sure about this ball expending all its energy in the body. The few ballistics gel results put out there generally show over 20” of penetration. Of course that would be dependent on whether or not it expanded and it seems soft lead needs 1000-1100 FPS for that to happen. Easier in a full size .36 with a ball vs a .44 and talking about standard powders. It takes an energetic powder to get to that in a .44.
For hunting I decided to create a very wide meplat bullet for my .44/.45s. As I can’t count on expansion I wanted to ensure I made a bigger hole. From gel tests we see a ball tends to produce a caliber sized hole, whereas a large meplat, even at very low velocities, creates a larger than caliber hole. I like the idea of big holes, especially if one were talking about a percussion revolver where there’s still just 6 shots and a slow reload (excluding a NMA cylinder swap). I’ve always preferred larger calibers so I’d never opt for a .36 over a .44.
A fellow chronographed his .44 cal Pietta snubby and found with a Lee RN and what seems to be 26 grns of T7 found it produced 847 FPS and 319 ft/lbs.
What I’ve generally seen is that, when using Swiss, Olde E, Triple 7, and sometimes Pyrodex P, a standard .36 generally gets roughly .38 Spl +P levels of performance with a ball. A fellow made a short for caliber .36 bullet that weighs 100-110 grns and with 20 grns of Olde E was at the lower .380 ACP end of performance. That’s about a max load in the little 1862 Colts. What I’ve seen with the .44 cal is that it’s generally in the low .45 ACP end with a bullet and high end .44 Spl with a ball.
I’m not sure about this ball expending all its energy in the body. The few ballistics gel results put out there generally show over 20” of penetration. Of course that would be dependent on whether or not it expanded and it seems soft lead needs 1000-1100 FPS for that to happen. Easier in a full size .36 with a ball vs a .44 and talking about standard powders. It takes an energetic powder to get to that in a .44.
For hunting I decided to create a very wide meplat bullet for my .44/.45s. As I can’t count on expansion I wanted to ensure I made a bigger hole. From gel tests we see a ball tends to produce a caliber sized hole, whereas a large meplat, even at very low velocities, creates a larger than caliber hole. I like the idea of big holes, especially if one were talking about a percussion revolver where there’s still just 6 shots and a slow reload (excluding a NMA cylinder swap). I’ve always preferred larger calibers so I’d never opt for a .36 over a .44.
A fellow chronographed his .44 cal Pietta snubby and found with a Lee RN and what seems to be 26 grns of T7 found it produced 847 FPS and 319 ft/lbs.
Been years since i had a misfire with my 1858s. Remmy number 10 caps seem to work flawlessly.
I find that hard to believe. Is that a true snubby with a barrel cut down to 2 maybe 3 inches?
1858s can be reloaded in 10 seconds if you carry a loaded and capped spare cylinder protected by a cylinder shield.. Even in the dark.
Its from the Pietta ‘51 birds head gripped .44. I think those are something like 3”.
.38 Special
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Try it while someone is trying to kill you and then get back to us.
Dirty Bob
Member
@Rexster: If you look up Chic Gaylord — who wrote The Handgunner’s Guide, IIRC — he devised some very simple holsters back in the day. His book shows how to make a simple version of the Slim Jim, called the Missouri Skintite, IIRC. Another simple holster is the Simply Rugged design, which sells at a fair price but could also be a DIY project. I know ROAs are probably hard to find holsters for. I’ll be building an 1860 Sheriff into a ,
.45 Colt conversion, soon, I hope, and have the same problem.
Just a thought...
.45 Colt conversion, soon, I hope, and have the same problem.
Just a thought...
How is that much different than a speed loader or magazine swap? Granted a magazine swap might be a little easier but there are still things that have to be done. Anything can be fumbled if it’s not practiced much or if one gets caught up in the stress of the situation.
arcticap
Member
And any centerfire single action revolver would also need to have its empty cases extracted before it can be reloaded one cartridge at a time.
Time wise that may give an advantage to reloading an 1858 using a spare cylinder over a SA CF.
Time wise that may give an advantage to reloading an 1858 using a spare cylinder over a SA CF.
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.38 Special
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Absolutely. I honestly have not heard of any situation where a CCW man has had to reload during a gunfight, and I honestly do believe that a percussion revolver is at least somewhat viable as a carry gun.
But I also have had quite a bit of realistic "high stress" fight training, and I am shocked at how useless even serious, competent men can become under severe stress. Under realistic training conditions, I have seen very experienced gunmen fumble magazine changes, even with fully "tricked out" guns with funneled magazine wells and literally thousands of repetitions behind them - and I do argue that a magazine change is much simpler than a cylinder change, no matter how many time one has watched Pale Rider!
So I don't mean to imply that percussion revolvers are completely useless as defensive weapons, but I do believe that blanket statements about rapidly reloading such guns under combat conditions are a bit too blithe.
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Carrying capped (primed) spare percussion cylinders is far from perfect.
I imagine special care and arrangements would have to done to prevent the caps from falling off during carry and when switching cylinders as well as finding a way to protect against discharge of the exposed percussion caps on the cylinders if bumped by accident when not installed in the cap and ball revolver or during a cylinder change.
Percussion cylinders are much heavier and somewhat bigger than speed loaders. The Remington New Model Army/Navy cylinder and frame setup is nowhere near as efficient as a modern revolver's swing open or break open action let alone a semi auto's magazine changing setup for purposes of reloading. At the end of the day you will probably only get 4, 5, or 6 single action shots (depending on the cap and ball gun) in a very high stress situation.
Good luck you'll need if faced against a person armed with a modern firearm who has the advantage of surprise on his/her side.
A cap and ball gun is far from useless for self defense but it has a lot of drawbacks.
I think we can agree on that at least.
I imagine special care and arrangements would have to done to prevent the caps from falling off during carry and when switching cylinders as well as finding a way to protect against discharge of the exposed percussion caps on the cylinders if bumped by accident when not installed in the cap and ball revolver or during a cylinder change.
Percussion cylinders are much heavier and somewhat bigger than speed loaders. The Remington New Model Army/Navy cylinder and frame setup is nowhere near as efficient as a modern revolver's swing open or break open action let alone a semi auto's magazine changing setup for purposes of reloading. At the end of the day you will probably only get 4, 5, or 6 single action shots (depending on the cap and ball gun) in a very high stress situation.
Good luck you'll need if faced against a person armed with a modern firearm who has the advantage of surprise on his/her side.
A cap and ball gun is far from useless for self defense but it has a lot of drawbacks.
I think we can agree on that at least.
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DocRock
member
I am not advocating anyone carry cap-n-ball revolvers concealed for self defense, just making a point. Take a lesson from those who actually depended on these guns in the 19th Century. Clint Eastwood not-with-standing, they carried a second or third revolver as a reload, not extra loaded cylinders. And even that was more for someone who knew they were going in harms way, not for the average citizen taking the buggy into town for supplies. And to be honest he would more than likely have a rifle or shotgun that a handgun.
Just sayin',
Dave
Just sayin',
Dave
arcticap
Member
From what I've found, some people may have carried both spare guns and spare cylinders.
One example refers to the Colt Paterson revolver some of which didn't have a loading lever.
So a spare cylinder was the way to have a quicker reload.
The Wiki source says that a spare cylinder came with the gun.
The reference for the statement is none other than our own THR member mec from his book.
"The revolvers came with spare cylinders, and the practice of the day was to carry spare cylinders loaded and capped for fast reloading.
Period users had few qualms about this practice even though it presented a real hazard of accidental discharge if the caps were struck or the cylinder dropped." --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Paterson
Also:
"While most Union cavalry regiments used the new .44-caliber Army, some were armed with the Navy revolver.
It also became a favorite of guerrilla bands on either side of the Civil War.
Many carried spare loaded cylinders and extra Colts in their belts, giving them massive firepower when raiding or attacking." --->>> https://www.historynet.com/colts-old-model-navy-revolvers-found-ready-market-west.htm
A Google book also mentions that spare cylinders for the Dragoon [I believe] was an optional extra, but was rarely required for civilian use. --->>>
https://books.google.com/books?id=dat0DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT69&lpg=PT69&dq=spare+cylinder+during+civil+war&source=bl&ots=EUCL4IdsgK&sig=ACfU3U29noZNXl3IdVLhejIKknh9vHmVGQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDyYq-8a7pAhX4lHIEHcc1BhwQ6AEwCXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=spare cylinder during civil war&f=false
The reason for the multiple references is because I've found posts on the internet that dispute there being spare cylinders during the civil war era, or they hadn't seen any actual references to them being available.
But since we're discussing modern reproductions for which spare cylinders are readily available, what they did or didn't use in the old days is sort of a moot point anyway.
The Google search term that I used to find these references was "spare cylinder during civil war".
I thought that I remembered reading somewhere here that [any] Colt C&B's could be sent in to the factory to have a spare cylinder fitted to a gun. It was a custom service just like any other repair. Perhaps it wasn't common. Except for maybe the guns without loadings levers that also happened to be [among] the most popular C&B model Colt ever produced, the Model 1849.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Remington also made some 1858 spare cylinders but that's just a wild guess.
One example refers to the Colt Paterson revolver some of which didn't have a loading lever.
So a spare cylinder was the way to have a quicker reload.
The Wiki source says that a spare cylinder came with the gun.
The reference for the statement is none other than our own THR member mec from his book.
"The revolvers came with spare cylinders, and the practice of the day was to carry spare cylinders loaded and capped for fast reloading.
Period users had few qualms about this practice even though it presented a real hazard of accidental discharge if the caps were struck or the cylinder dropped." --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt_Paterson
Also:
"While most Union cavalry regiments used the new .44-caliber Army, some were armed with the Navy revolver.
It also became a favorite of guerrilla bands on either side of the Civil War.
Many carried spare loaded cylinders and extra Colts in their belts, giving them massive firepower when raiding or attacking." --->>> https://www.historynet.com/colts-old-model-navy-revolvers-found-ready-market-west.htm
A Google book also mentions that spare cylinders for the Dragoon [I believe] was an optional extra, but was rarely required for civilian use. --->>>
https://books.google.com/books?id=dat0DQAAQBAJ&pg=PT69&lpg=PT69&dq=spare+cylinder+during+civil+war&source=bl&ots=EUCL4IdsgK&sig=ACfU3U29noZNXl3IdVLhejIKknh9vHmVGQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjDyYq-8a7pAhX4lHIEHcc1BhwQ6AEwCXoECAsQAQ#v=onepage&q=spare cylinder during civil war&f=false
The reason for the multiple references is because I've found posts on the internet that dispute there being spare cylinders during the civil war era, or they hadn't seen any actual references to them being available.
But since we're discussing modern reproductions for which spare cylinders are readily available, what they did or didn't use in the old days is sort of a moot point anyway.
The Google search term that I used to find these references was "spare cylinder during civil war".
I thought that I remembered reading somewhere here that [any] Colt C&B's could be sent in to the factory to have a spare cylinder fitted to a gun. It was a custom service just like any other repair. Perhaps it wasn't common. Except for maybe the guns without loadings levers that also happened to be [among] the most popular C&B model Colt ever produced, the Model 1849.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Remington also made some 1858 spare cylinders but that's just a wild guess.
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Dirty Bob
Member
I firmly believe that whatever you carry, you should always have a reload. Statistics tell us almost no one needs a reload during a fight. That may well be the case, but many will need — or want — a reload after a fight.
Many of these events happen in sketchy locations. If I have to defend myself at a gas station in south Houston, I’m going to have to wait for the police to arrive. On a Saturday night, that might take a while. I want a fully loaded firearm on me while I wait. That could be a spare firearm, or just a reload consisting of a speed loader, or a spare mag, or a dump pouch with cartridges (paper, or those new-fangled brass ones that will never catch on), or whatever.
The important thing is not to be standing there with an empty gun in your holster and nothing but a cell phone and a pocketknife to defend yourself.
Yes, your hands will be shaking like mine were when trying to dial 911 while someone was kicking in my front door while I waited in the dark in ambush, with a phone in one hand and a Taurus Model 85CH in the other. By the way, they gave up before the door did, but the Las Cruces PD never came to the door. A car drove down the street 30 minutes after my call and drove away.
At least it isn’t likely to be a reload “on the clock.” The sketchy dude — or his friend(s) — will probably need at least a few minutes to return to the scene, or some other opportunist may take a few minutes to decide you look out of place, and wow, that’s a nice car...
Respectfully submitted,
Dirty Bob
Many of these events happen in sketchy locations. If I have to defend myself at a gas station in south Houston, I’m going to have to wait for the police to arrive. On a Saturday night, that might take a while. I want a fully loaded firearm on me while I wait. That could be a spare firearm, or just a reload consisting of a speed loader, or a spare mag, or a dump pouch with cartridges (paper, or those new-fangled brass ones that will never catch on), or whatever.
The important thing is not to be standing there with an empty gun in your holster and nothing but a cell phone and a pocketknife to defend yourself.
Yes, your hands will be shaking like mine were when trying to dial 911 while someone was kicking in my front door while I waited in the dark in ambush, with a phone in one hand and a Taurus Model 85CH in the other. By the way, they gave up before the door did, but the Las Cruces PD never came to the door. A car drove down the street 30 minutes after my call and drove away.
At least it isn’t likely to be a reload “on the clock.” The sketchy dude — or his friend(s) — will probably need at least a few minutes to return to the scene, or some other opportunist may take a few minutes to decide you look out of place, and wow, that’s a nice car...
Respectfully submitted,
Dirty Bob
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Tried holster making yesterday. I know i need some extra tools, better materials and to make maybe a dozen of more holsters before they start looking the way a holster actually should, but it rides nice, holds tight, i can sit with it and it could be carried under jacket.
The weapon is Colt Navy by Pietta, model YAS36
The weapon is Colt Navy by Pietta, model YAS36
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Dirty Bob
Member
Well done! If that's your first effort, it's a good one! I like the design and the way it tucks into your side. It looks very functional, with no wasted material. What that much contact between holster and revolver, I'll bet you could hang upside down without the gun falling out.
If it works, it isn't wrong.
All my best,
Dirty Bob
.38 Special
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Outstanding! Far better than anything I could make. It's not actually purple though...is it?
Dry-baked, candle-waxed and molded - its not going to fall.
Naah. It's grey. Reminds me the East-German equipment we were issued when i was a conscript.
woodnbow
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The difference is the fine motor skills needed to swap a cylinder vs. dropping a mag and reloading the pistol... there’s really no comparison. I’m sure a highly trained shooter could swap cylinders almost as quickly as another guy could recharge using a speedloader... almost. But then, when **** hits the fan, and your fine motor skills are shot to heck, even manipulation of a speedloader is often difficult or impossible. Cap and ball can be useful for self defense, if other options are available it’s far from ideal.
Dirty Bob
Member
Absolutely true. There were at least three people on my doorstep that night that I described above. I had a 5-shot .38 snubby and no hope of reloading once they got inside. I kept asking myself if I’d be able to stop them all, and i hoped to stop the first one, and if I did that the others would abandon their crime partner. My left hand shook so much that it took several tries, just to dial 9-1-1.
I still have no clear idea why they gave up on the door. Maybe it was taking too long and making a lot of noise, at around 11pm on a weeknight. Maybe they heard me talking to the dispatcher. I’m just glad everyone went home alive, and I didn’t have to find out how many were out there, and whether I could stop them all.
Humbly submitted,
Dirty Bob
Dirty Bob
Member
I'm hoping to carry a black powder pistol this summer, but an open top conversion, not a cap-and-ball. I've placed an order for a Pietta .44 "1851 Navy" kit from Dixie Gun Works. The plan is to combine it with a .45 Colt conversion cylinder and to make some modest pressure ammunition, probably loaded with homemade black powder and home-cast "Big Lube" bullets lubed with Gatofeo Lube (created by one of the "OG" members here!). One of the great things about conversions is that I can swap the original cylinder back in at any time and shoot cap-and-ball. Another is that they were designed for black powder, so they're not as difficult to clean after using BP as more "modern" firearms can be.
Planned modifications are pretty simple: a 5-1/2 inch barrel, a new (taller) front sight, opening the side of the frame to allow use of the loading gate that comes with the conversion cylinder, and maybe modding the grip frame to the real lines of the 1851 Navy Colt (also the same as the Colt Single Action Army). I'll also have some bluing to do to finish everything up. I plan to leave the rammer assembly off and put it in my spare parts box. Then it will be ammo making time! I hope to have a lot of fun with this. The work is sometimes almost as much fun as the shooting.
I don't plan to carry it as a regular, daily carry handgun...probably just for taking walks in my neighborhood, and as my sidearm when at the private range where I shoot. This last is important, as I'm sometimes there alone, and even one or two firearms is more than enough to interest someone bent on theft or violence. I keep a loaded, concealed firearm on my person at all times at the range for this reason. The risk is fairly low, but it exists.
I've long been fascinated with cap-and-ball and conversion handguns and carbines. Someone who really has the bug for interesting conversions is Michael Tinker Pierce. His blog -- Tinker Talks Guns -- is a digital playground to people like me.
Regards,
Dirty Bob
Planned modifications are pretty simple: a 5-1/2 inch barrel, a new (taller) front sight, opening the side of the frame to allow use of the loading gate that comes with the conversion cylinder, and maybe modding the grip frame to the real lines of the 1851 Navy Colt (also the same as the Colt Single Action Army). I'll also have some bluing to do to finish everything up. I plan to leave the rammer assembly off and put it in my spare parts box. Then it will be ammo making time! I hope to have a lot of fun with this. The work is sometimes almost as much fun as the shooting.
I don't plan to carry it as a regular, daily carry handgun...probably just for taking walks in my neighborhood, and as my sidearm when at the private range where I shoot. This last is important, as I'm sometimes there alone, and even one or two firearms is more than enough to interest someone bent on theft or violence. I keep a loaded, concealed firearm on my person at all times at the range for this reason. The risk is fairly low, but it exists.
I've long been fascinated with cap-and-ball and conversion handguns and carbines. Someone who really has the bug for interesting conversions is Michael Tinker Pierce. His blog -- Tinker Talks Guns -- is a digital playground to people like me.
Regards,
Dirty Bob
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