Career as a BATFE agent?

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My take is that the instant you LIE to me and I can see the lie, I must consider everything that you say as a LIE until you can prove to me otherwise. After proving yourself to be a liar, you have to prove everything you say from then out.
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Funny you should mention that...

I believe it was back in the '90s, that the BATF made a training tape. It was intended to teach BATF (I ABSOLUTELY refuse to call it the ATF) agents how to testify under oath about the NFA record keeping system. The problem was that the film instructed them to in every case state that the records were 100% accurate and reliable... something which the instructor in the tape clearly states IS NOT TRUE. That means that they were actually being taught to commit PERJURY, and AS OFFICIAL POLICY.

Somebody leaked the tape and the Higgins hit the fan. A LOT of convictions were called into question (including one of a friend). Look up the term "Brady Material" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brady_material in connection with evidence and testimony. The BATF has a well earned history in this regard.

It's not exactly unheard of for cops to lie under oath, but it takes a special degree of contempt for the rule of law to make an official training film on how to do it.
 
I am personally rather disappointed by some of the posts in this thread. I agree with Correia on this one. You can pontificate all you want, but there are good people and bad people that work in any given profession. If you think the agency is evil, that is great, but don't think you have a monopoly on moral and political reasoning. If a good and reasonable person who believes in gun rights wants to join the ATF, then they would certainly have my support and encouragement. Flame all you want.
 
Hey, don't get me wrong. When I'm declared Ruler for Life, I'm going to declare all gun control laws null and void, and they'll all be out of work.

In the meantime, somebody still has to stamp off on this paperwork. And since I like not being in prison, and you guys like to buy guns, I would prefer for the person doing said stamping to not personally hate my guts and look for creative ways not to bankrupt or imprison me.
 
OK, maybe I shouldn't have made the "whoredom" comment.
But, sometimes people take a job thinking that they can change the system. Or maybe selectively enforce the law. So I'll use what I think might be a fair example. I once new a guy, in another state where I lived. Nice guy. Hunted with him a few times, drank a couple beers with him. Did some work for him. He later went on to political office, and eventually,governor of the state. As such, he was required to enforce the law. Didn't matter if he agreed with it. That was his job. And I am pretty sure that there were many, very many, that he thought were wrong.
Same thing with a BATF agent. It's their job to enforce the laws as congress passed them. Doesn't matter if it's right or wrong. That's how they pay the bills and support their family. It's kinda hard to tell your boss, I'll enorce this, but not that. Now maybe it once was different when the idea was just to collect alcohol and tobacco taxes. But now it seems, at least to me, that the idea is more to punish the "thing" than the usage of it. Outlaw certain weapons, Not punish the illegal use of it. Outlaw the "still", not tax the product. Tobacco, so far at least is legal. But what happens if you or I grow some, and sell it to our friends or neighbors? Can the agent just say no and keep his job? Sometimes, good people do bad things because it's their job. Sort of like the Nuremburg defence argued. I don't think it went all that well for those guys.
 
If you do join, just selectively enforce stuff. You know, only go after real criminals that hurt people, not people with 15 inch rifle barrels and more than 10 imported parts and all.

It's not a very noble organization, but if you can be a good ATF Agent, then by all means, go for it.
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It's not like you get to go out and do whatever you want. Like any other federal agency, you are assigned specific tasks to do and then you are evaluated on the results by whatever method they use to measure and quantify results. Management will be looking to see that your results match the trends established over the years. If you don't shut down so many FFLs, expect to be called on the carpet. If you don't bust so many citizens for minor infractions, expect to be called on the carpet. Etc, etc, ad nauseum. I once worked for the feds and they don't appreciate it when you compete with Congress at playing Santa Claus.
 
If a good and reasonable person who believes in gun rights wants to join the ATF, then they would certainly have my support and encouragement.
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If you're White and don't hate Black people, why would you follow David Duke?

If you're Black and don't hate Jews, why would you follow Louis Farrakhan?

If you believe in the Bill of Rights and the rule of law, why would you join the BATFE?

I find the idea of "good people" somehow "fixing" the BATFE simply absurd.

If you take a gallon of raw sewage and add a gallon of chardonnay, you don't get two gallons of chardonnay. In fact, you don't even get ONE gallon of chardonnay...
 
I personally don't think i'd last very long in that particular government agency, but if you think you can do it go ahead. Though in all liklihood you'll probably run into several instances that clearly violate your principles and which will put you between a rock and a hard place.
 
The existance of the organization is contrary to the Constitution of the United States of America and is therefore by definition unlawful. Any willing participant in it's activities, is him/herself guilty by extension of unconstitutional behavior and therefore unlawful in their existance.

At what point does unlawful behavior become moral or praiseworthy?

Sam
 
If you're White and don't hate Black people, why would you follow David Duke?

If you're Black and don't hate Jews, why would you follow Louis Farrakhan?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

If you believe in the Bill of Rights and the rule of law, why would you join the BATFE?
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You are assuming that everyone believes that the BATFE fundamentally violates the Bill of Rights and rule of law. I don't deny that the BATFE needs reform and that it acts outside the bounds of what I believe are just laws, but projecting your personal view of the BATFE as a monolithic belief is problematic. That is a more normative argument you are making. The argument that myself and others have made are empirical arguments that are dealing with a world as it is, not as it should be. The reality is that the BATFE exists, it is not going anywhere no matter how much anyone dislikes it. Placing people who have a strong leaning towards the 2nd amendment seems like a step in the right direction in changing the culture of the BATFE.

If you take a gallon of raw sewage and add a gallon of chardonnay, you don't get two gallons of chardonnay. In fact, you don't even get ONE gallon of chardonnay...
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St. Aquinas said that argument by analogy is the weakest form of argument.
 
You are assuming that everyone believes that the BATFE fundamentally violates the Bill of Rights and rule of law.
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I don't care what anyone believes. You can beliieve in santa claus for all I care. The fact is, that the BATF is unconstitutional. Just like no knock warrants. Unwarranted wiretaps. Imprisonment without being charged. Dui checkpoints. The whole war on United States citizens that use non state approved drugs, ad infinatum, ad nauseum.:barf:
 
After reading some of the posts I am finally compelled to write something.

First, let me make it clear that I am not a fan of the BATF in any way, shape, or form. Slapping around pregnant women and killing family pets in front of the children is NOT something with which I would be associated.

However, I see a number of posts regarding the “evil” of working for the Federal government in general. I have to ask this question: how many of those posting have any first hand knowledge of Federal employment? (i.e. have you actually worked for the Federal government?)

As you might have surmised I am a Federal employee (Dept. of Veterans Affairs). After nearly 20 years I feel that I have a reasonable working knowledge of what is involved. I am curious as to why working for the Government is in any way more inherently evil than for any other large entity. I’m not talking about management or policy makers just simple, grunt employees like myself.
 
Welcome aboard Elza.

Yes, I have worked for the federal government. While in the military, and I worked for other agencies besides the Army as well. I have witnessed the wanton use of goods and moneys first hand. Like any bureaucracy, if the funds from this year aren't used up then it will see a lesser amount next year. That policy does not promote good fiscal responsibilty. While I am sure that you serve a noble purpose, that cannot be said of much of government.
 
Welcome aboard Elza.
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Thank you! Glad to be here

Like any bureaucracy, if the funds from this year aren't used up then it will see a lesser amount next year. That policy does not promote good fiscal responsibilty.
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Absolutely true! But, the same is true of large corporations. I have worked for a few (Arco Oil and Gas, Kraft-General Foods, Anderson-Clayton) and all operated the same way: use it or loose it. With the Government you pay for it through taxes, with corporations you pay for it through higher prices. Either way it is the ‘common folk’ that pay.
 
Guys, just had an idea...

I'm not trying to derail the thread - Just to branch into a thing that could be a win/win sorta situation.

If a gunny wants to work for F-troo... er... the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Boomsticks and things that go kerpow, why not? I think it's a good idea.

The more _of us_ who are working _within that bureacracy_, the better!

Think about it...

That's why we should also join the ACLU, etc.
 
MPFreeman
Because I am forced to pay your salary.
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Guess what slick? I pay the same taxes you do. People seem to think that we are tax-exempt or something. Trust me: we aren’t!
 
The presence of good people and evil people is of little value when you are dealing with institutional corruption. And all rational evidence points to the fact that the BATF is indeed, institutionally corrupt. And frankly, even if they could automagically clean the institution of the BATF up, they will still have the reputation earned by past behavior.

The truth hurts, but past behavior is indicative of future behavior.
 
All bureaucracies are essentially corrupt - after something reaches a certain unmanageable size, oversight no longer works, and you have situations where misuse is inevitable.

I think that's what those old Dead White Guys wanted the authority decentralized among the different states - harder for an organization to reach critical bureaucratic inertial mass that way...

(IMHO, if you insist on staying at the Ritz while travelling on the company/government dime, you should also fork over the cash for the same accomodations while you're on vacation, spending your own money. If I travel on business, I always opt for the cheapest convenient lodgings - because it just doesn't feel right to spend the lodging budget for my whole vacation in one or two evenings.)

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Management theories - We need powerpoint slides!
 
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