Do you find accuracy fun?

[Varminterror]

I have never understood any differentiation between speed and accuracy in the context of handguns. The desired application dictates the accuracy requirement, and then speed is only a challenge to quickly deliver such degree of accuracy.

Colloquialisms only sustain momentum when they bear sufficient relevance to be revived in context frequently enough to endure. Such: we hear things like, “speed is fine, but accuracy is final,” or “slow is smooth, smooth is fast,” “only accurate [firearms] are interesting,” “you can’t miss fast enough,” etc.

I also have never understood how anyone can, or why anyone would defend any practice schedule (or lack thereof) which does not effectively address both slow fire and rapid fire skills. Too often, folks act like practice is an unnecessary burden.

 

[URIT]

I admire the shooters that can keep their shot groups tight but I tend to focus more on challenging drills in the 3-10 yard distances using sighted fire, point shooting, or retention shooting depending on whether I'm at the outdoor or indoor range.
I don't use silhouette targets any longer but bring some of the drill targets from Todd Green's website or some 6" paper plates, 3X5 cards, 3" square Post-its or the 2"X1.5" neon Post-its I can staple to the backboard.

 

[jmorris]

But it made me realize that I DO enjoy shooting as small of groups as possible.

I had just assumed that everyone else did as well.

But I realize that a lot of shooters concentrate on defense drills that emphasize speed and just "getting hits on paper" and eschew the slow fire discipline of getting as small as groups as possible.

I find the smallest groups possible generally come from things that are not very practical for everyday carry IWB.



and things that I can carry and not even notice the extra burden are not ideal for getting the smallest groups possible, even if they were mechanically identical, aiming systems were designed for two different purposes.



An “A zone” or “0 down” hit requires accuracy on a far different level than a benchrest or even bullseye match. Different equipment for different uses.

Shooting a bug hole group with a precision rifle can be fun but it can also be fun to see what kind of split times you can get in various target sizes. It takes a lot more time to get a follow up shot in a 100 yard group going for one hole than say an 8” plate at 10 yards.

 

[Hangingrock]

It is 20+ yards from my front door to the entrance to my kitchen...from where I might be coming from to response to noise from the door. From the gate in my wing fencing to the street...where I would have to take a trashcan...is 25 yards. Almost 30 yards if the shooter is parked on the other side of the street.

We reside in a rural area. Our residence is small but our property is measured in multiples of acreage. As for shootings, there are only two that I know of that resulted in fatalities if memory serves me correctly in the last 25Yrs in our county of residence. We have a local weekly paper that has the county Sheriffs Dept. report and the one major population centers police department report we are not in a high crime area but I'll note that illegal drugs are beginning to be problematic.

I'll fall back to Tom Givens rewrite of his previous book now newly titled Concealed Carry Class The ABCs Of Self-Defense Tools And Tactics referencing his reported students self-defense shooting distances, FBI and DEA in regards to shooting distances. Also my limited military combat experience with the 1911A1 in Viet-Nam has a young Marine. No war stories but one eventually replaces the handgun with a rifle.

You have your perspective from your professional and personal experience and I have my perspective. We may simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[wagonburner]

I notice a lot of shooters mag-dumping into their targets at 5 yards. I don’t get it, but it’s their guns and ammunition and none of my business. Personally I always shoot for accuracy (small groupings).

 

[Paco42]

...all practice is good practice...

With respect, I disagree. I believe it to be, based on logic, experience, and observation, that it is actually quite easy to practice either the wrong thing or bad habits. That said, I can agree that there is always the possibility to learn from a given experience—even if that experience is “bad practice”. But too often, especially when bad or ineffective practice is fun, little to no learning occurs, and the practice cements bad habits and fails to further develop at least some appropriate skills. And I also find that one bad habit begets more bad habits.

Back, now, to the original question. My answer—and that of most people, I suspect, depends very much on the definition of “accuracy”. When I’m practicing rapid-fire self-defense techniques, I’m looking for accuracy—as I define it for that activity. When I slow way down and shoot as if I’m in a bullseye competition, the accuracy I seek is of a different order entirely. By doing both, and looking closely at what I’m doing well and what I’m doing not-so-well, I become every more familiar and comfortable with the gun in my hand, and refine, reawaken, or even relearn perishable skills. So yes, I find accuracy “fun”, because it’s a marker of doing that thing well.

 

[JR24]

I work on and enjoy both. I think more accurate guns are more interesting than less accurate guns, but with handguns I pretty much am only interested in guns that can/could be carried so it is limiting.

If I'm stuck only shooting small groups I get bored and don't shoot as much, so I try to mix some faster paced CCW type drills in every range session, same goes for carbines.

For skills I'm pretty OK out to about 15 yards then I open up some bit, combination of impatience, eyesight and technique, but can still keep em in 6" at 25 yards most days at somewhat rapid pace (maybe 1-2 seconds per), but I doubt I'll ever be a bullseye shooter though.

At least, when I've kept up shooting that is. Weather and time have kept me away from the range pretty much all winter so I cringe to see where I'm at once I get started again, been keeping up on dry fire but it only does so much. Hope to get 5K through the new Wilson by summers end, so that should help.

Haven't shot at 50 yards in years, mean to do that some this summer.

 

[bluejeans]

Yes. I start and end every session with accuracy drills (either 5 yard one ragged hole or 100yards at a 10” plate). That said, I’m often told by instructors that my groups are too small; I’m ok with that because I know that under stress my group will open up. Combat accuracy says that a scattering of shots in the kill zone is more effective than putting all hits in the same hole: more trauma/bleeding.
My rule of thumb is to shoot for a 3-4” group so that under stress I can still get 6-8”... if my groups gets too small; I need to shoot faster... gets bigger: need to slow down.

 

[Kayaker 1960]

Whether a rifle or a handgun, I find guns that are inaccurate both boring and unsatisfying.

 

[film495]

it is particularly fun when your groups get smaller, or you figure out something that is an overall improvement, stance, grip, trigger control, which helps all around capability …

 

[helitack32f1]

I was on another firearm-specific forum and a debate ensued regarding how accurate your self-defense firearm needs to be.

Disparaging comments were made towards the few people such as myself that actually test for accuracy at 25 yards and select self-defense ammo with accuracy in mind. To me, it made sense to carry a gun I was completely confident in it's ability to make a head shot at 75', even if I was incapable of such accuracy in a high-stress scenario.

But one of the insults hurled at me caused me to have an epiphany. The poster suggested that if shooting tiny groups gave me a tingle in my leg, then fine, but it didn't make a bit of difference in the real world.

Maybe, maybe not.

But it made me realize that I DO enjoy shooting as small of groups as possible.

I had just assumed that everyone else did as well.

But I realize that a lot of shooters concentrate on defense drills that emphasize speed and just "getting hits on paper" and eschew the slow fire discipline of getting as small as groups as possible.

And that makes total sense for a carry pistol and is absolutely critical for self-defense. I admit that I need to concentrate more on developing that skill to the level of my ability to make tiny slow-fire groups.

But I still get a large amount of satisfaction from making little groups.

I've re-discovered the fun of when I was a youngster shooting with friends and family when we would be at the family cabin or out camping, and collect the empty aluminum cans from the previous night's imbibing and put out a dozen or so cans on a dirt hillside at various distances and heights, then see who could hit the most cans the fastest. Might not be official self-defense drills, but it is relevant practice and completely more fun.

I guess my question for other shooters here is, do you find getting small groups and optimizing accuracy fun, or think slow-fire at a single target boring and not really important in the grand scheme of a self-defense firearm?

This is a great question and topic! In my opinion small groups are a matter of discipline, so accomplishing the smallest group possible at distance is deeply satisfying. This goes for my .22's as well as my EDC gun and hunting rifles. Small groups show you are doing everything right. Yeah, in a self defense situation it may not be the most important thing but there is always the chance that a person will need to shoot accurately at longer distances.

What irritates me is those who feel a need to put someone else down for something like this, yet when the Army was looking for their new handgun they specified a specific accuracy for that gun, I think it was 2" at 25 yards? It would be interesting to see the statistics on how often a military handgun in the regular Army is actually used for it's intended purpose, yet they specified a rather stringent accuracy test for a handgun. I wonder if their chance of using it is higher or lower than using an SD gun in the civilian world.

People say "Statistically you will never use an SD gun over 7 yards." That is all fine and dandy except when you are the exception. "Statistically", we will most likely never have to use the gun in the first place, yet we carry one. "Statistically" we will never need more than a few rounds of ammo yet a lot of us carry high capacity handguns as well as a second magazine. So, why not work on distance accuracy even though "statistically" we will never need it?

One of the things we carry in anticipation of these days is a mass shooting. Whether at a mall or a church or theater, are we just going to sit by and wait till the guy gets withing 7 yards? Having a handle on accuracy at a distance could give us a slight edge on a bad guy in such a situation.

 

[bdickens]

More than likely for self defense any self defense shot or shots would happen at 10 yards or less, and point and shoot would take over concentrated aiming. Any self defense shot at a distance farther than that there is a good chance you may be faced with legal and or civil charges and need a lawyer (even at 10 yards or closer you should have a lawyer ready also

Unsubstantiated speculation.

 

[Hartkopf]

I notice a lot of shooters mag-dumping into their targets at 5 yards. I don’t get it, but it’s their guns and ammunition and none of my business. Personally I always shoot for accuracy (small groupings).

I’ll do mag dumps occasionally to test ammo and gun combinations. Once a gun has proven itself with about 500 rounds, I’ll do some rapid fire mag dumps with hot carry ammo to make sure the mag springs can keep up and there are no feed issues. Some people at the range are rolling their eyes but there is method to the madness.

 

[9mmepiphany]

One of the things we carry in anticipation of these days is a mass shooting. Whether at a mall or a church or theater, are we just going to sit by and wait till the guy gets withing 7 yards? Having a handle on accuracy at a distance could give us a slight edge on a bad guy in such a situation.

The recently church shooting in Texas was ended when Security shot the Shooter at a distance in excess of 10 yards...and the shooter was in the process of moving further away.

...when the Army was looking for their new handgun they specified a specific accuracy for that gun, I think it was 2" at 25 yards?

That translates into about 4" at 50 yards, which has long been the standard for the minimum acceptable accuracy of a combat handgun...at least since the birth of Action Pistol shooting in the 60s

 

[9mmepiphany]

I’ll do some rapid fire mag dumps with hot carry ammo to make sure the mag springs can keep up and there are no fees issues. Some people at the range are rolling their eyes but there is method to the madness.

Mag dump is one of those words, within the shooting community, which has a a meaning which often floats in the Gray Zone...like quick, fast, and accurate.

A fairly standard test used for comparison of controlability between different handguns is the Bill Drill. For those unfamiliar with the drill, it is a 6 shot drill with the target (IDPA/USPSA) at 7 yards starting with the gun holstered...so, on the signal, draw and fire 6 rounds into the (-0) as fast as you can. The original goal was to perform this drill in 2 sec., which would make you a Master shooter...although there is a YouTube of someone doing it in 1.1 sec.

Most good shooters can shoot it in 4 sec., as a reasonable goal is 3 sec. But all the shots have to be centered (inside an 8" circle) for the time to count

 

[lionking]

Unsubstantiated speculation.

Maybe, and in different states laws may vary, but if someone takes a shot at a bad guy and hits a innocent bystander civil lawyers will be lining up to sue you, and maybe criminal lawyers also when they say " you shot at 25 yards yet had plenty of ways to avoid and escape therefore your life wasn't in immediate danger".

Here in Florida there have been a couple "stand your ground" court cases that later sent the person to prison on murder charges, Yes there may be a scenario where your life or others is in danger at longer distances where a shot is determined justified but the consequences could come back to bite.

And, most people who carry concealed, have a small compact or sub compact handgun on them, my belief is under stress with someone shooting back, most people having a small concealable handgun won't hit the bad guy at 15 or 25 yards ....most people, not saying all people.

You are in Walmart or someplace like that and you see a moving bad guy way down the lane, meanwhile panicked innocents are scurrying for their life, I don't think a 25 yard shot is a good idea. But that's me, only my opinion.

This makes me want to start a 10 shot challenge concealed carry guns at 15 and 25 yards, last year we did one but at 10 yards.

 

[.38 Special]

I personally think about the "terrorist with a rifle" scenario more than is reasonable. Probably watching too much news. Regardless, I find that whenever I am in a public building, I run the scenario in my head: "What if someone walked through that door with an AR and started shooting?"

Getting into a rifle fight with my pistol is pretty low on my list of things to try, but it does seem to be happening these days. So I want a pistol that is accurate enough for the task, and I'm not much persuaded by arguments that shooting a mass killer at any distance is automatically going to result in murder charges.

 

[.38 Special]

Beyond that, the time I spent competing in various action pistol events seems to have fulfilled my need to empty guns as fast as possible. When I shoot for fun these days, it is for accuracy.

 

[lionking]

I started a 10 shot challenge let's see some targets entered
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...fense-carry-handgun-10-shot-challenge.864804/

 

[Mike OTDP]

I regard accuracy as critical. Distance is a shield...and the statistics thrown around come from reports of police fatalities. In other words, people who lost gunfights. Not to mention that the opponent might be wearing body armor. Or a suicide vest.

The problem is that accurate shooting demands disciplined practice. And there are a lot of people who just don't like that.

 

[bdickens]

Maybe, and in different states laws may vary, but if someone takes a shot at a bad guy and hits a innocent bystander civil lawyers will be lining up to sue you, and maybe criminal lawyers also when they say " you shot at 25 yards yet had plenty of ways to avoid and escape therefore your life wasn't in immediate danger".

Here in Florida there have been a couple "stand your ground" court cases that later sent the person to prison on murder charges, Yes there may be a scenario where your life or others is in danger at longer distances where a shot is determined justified but the consequences could come back to bite.

And, most people who carry concealed, have a small compact or sub compact handgun on them, my belief is under stress with someone shooting back, most people having a small concealable handgun won't hit the bad guy at 15 or 25 yards ....most people, not saying all people.

You are in Walmart or someplace like that and you see a moving bad guy way down the lane, meanwhile panicked innocents are scurrying for their life, I don't think a 25 yard shot is a good idea. But that's me, only my opinion.

This makes me want to start a 10 shot challenge concealed carry guns at 15 and 25 yards, last year we did one but at 10 yards.

None of that matters.

What matters is the fact pattern in the case at hand and how it relates to the law and the interpretation thereof. Just like you can't rely on just the black letter of the law, you can't rely on pat formulas either. It's possible for someone to be 100 yards away & still be a threat. It depends on what the actual situation is in that particular incident.

 

[Daveboone]

I think when you say accuracy, it is a matter of relevance. I don't understand why anyone would not want their firearm to shoot to its potential, which means the shooter can shoot to theirs. Potential is a combination of reliability and accuracy and controllability. I am always trying to improve my handgunning accuracy, but it is limited by what firearm I am shooting. If I want best...probably I am shooting my smith model 28, which is seldom seeing field use anymore. If I want controllability, probably my my 1911 .45 acp. But there certainly is no reason at all to be carrying something you cant control sufficiently for follow up shots with the ability to hit effectively your target with the first.

 

[Budshad]

I love knowing I have an accurate pistol and the skills to make that pistol put a bullet where I want it. Nothing is more rewarding than shooting a mag of 17 and only being able to count 10 holes because they’re so close. Accuracy rulz \m/

 

[Waveski]

More than likely for self defense any self defense shot or shots would happen at 10 yards or less, and point and shoot would take over concentrated aiming. Any self defense shot at a distance farther than that there is a good chance you may be faced with legal and or civil charges and need a lawyer (even at 10 yards or closer you should have a lawyer ready also).

This statement seems pointless.
-Yes , most self defense shooting occurs at distances less than 10 yards. But not all. If one undertakes the trouble to prepare and train for such an emergency , it makes sense to take all scenarios into consideration.
- Who on earth pauses to consider the likelihood of needing a lawyer in connection with a self defense shooting , based on the distance between the attacker and defender? Not like you can whistle a time out to bring out the chains.

Is accuracy fun? I recently managed to ring to ring a 20" steel plate at 200 yards with a 30/30 lever with iron sights. It took a number of tries , but that was fun!

 

[ATLDave]

I hate group shooting. I do like to be able to hit things. Even far-away small things. So I work on accuracy. But I truly hate shooting groups. I’ll try to hit the upper a-zone on a USPSA target at 25 yards. I’ll happily bang away at a steel plate or popper at 100+ yards. I’ll try to chew out the x ring on a target. But shooting groups is a chore.