What do you consider good handgun Shooting?

[ScrapMetalSlug]

I confess, I am primarily a rifle shooter. I shoot rifles for fun, self defense, and hunting.

I have not gotten nearly as much trigger time with pistols as I have had with rifles. I have taken a basic ccw course, and shot pistols occasionally over the past 10 years. I find myself constantly comparing accuracy to rifles where I shoot much tighter groups at much longer ranges.

For pistols, I can get reasonable 5” or so groups at 7 to 10 yards. I can hit on the target at 25 to 35 yards in a 10” group or so.

I mostly shoot for ccw self defense proficiency purposes. I have seen people like hickok45 shoot a gong at 80 yards using snub nose revolvers and am impressed, but I know his abilities are not the norm. I doubt I am much better than an average(less than) shot with a pistol.

Shooting pistols is completely different than shooting a rifle.

My question is what do you consider good shooting with a pistol?

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

I like to think Im a fair pistol shot, and Im probably pushin the 10k mark on pistol rounds downrange, compared to maybe 3k long gun.
As my handguns are SD in nature, and not hunting oriented, I consider it a good day if I can put all my holes center mass-ish in a man sized target at 25yd. Further than that, and I should have grabbed a rifle.....

 

[StrawHat]

Having competed with a revolver for decades in PPC, I trained to hit a tennis ball at 25 yards and a quart oil can at 50. Switching to a 45 caliber revolver, I could hit a gallon jug at 75 - 100 and a 5 gallon pail a lot further. And these were from field positions not from a bench. I was most accurate from a braced seated position or prone. Supported standing I could do okay but a bit closer in.

Still, when hunting, I don’t take shots over 50 yards and prefer to cut that by half.

Kevin

 

[ColtPythonElite]

Depends in the gun. I have snubs that I can probably shoot no better than pie plate groups at 25 yards with. I have 6 to 10 inch barrelled handguns that I can shoot open sighted standing offhand and hit a 12" gong at 100 yards time after time with.

 

[Sam1911]

My handgun shooting is in the areas of practical competition (primarily IDPA) and self defense.

The basic factor at play is that it doesn't much matter what size a group you can shoot, if you can't do it quickly enough to matter. Few discussions of handgun mastery make much sense if they don't emphasize the speed at which those skills can be employed.

IDPA has a standard classifier match format which tests accuracy vs speed at a variety of distances and compares the score (converted to time) you can produce to a given set of benchmark times.

I'd say anyone shooting that at the marksman level is a "good shot," anyone who can get to sharpshooter level is pretty decent, expert level means someone has very strong pistol skills, and master level is really quite impressive.

 

[Varminterror]

For me, it depends on the pistol and the shooting type. My expectations are very different for shooting rapid fire off hand with my LCP, a sub 2" 380acp, than they are for shooting from a bench with my custom XP100, a 300win mag with a 17" barrel. 1.5" groups at 100yrds isn't good for one, whereas 4" groups at 25yrds is perfectly acceptable for the other.

I've never found shooting pistols to be different than shooting a rifle, the capabilities are just a bit different. It's not as easy, but all of the same principles apply - your position has to be stable if you want to be able to minimize your wobble zone, then you have to demonstrate appropriate breath, hold, and trigger control to deliver the shot, only breaking the shot when your sight picture is traveling on the target, and once it's in play, you have to follow through properly. The sight radius is shorter, so there's a bit more induced error, but you'd be amazed how accurate short barrels really can be. Personally, I've never felt the average "shooter" has high enough expectations for their handguns, so they settle for less than their firearms are really capable.

Ernie Bishop has a few youtube videos with his FrankenRuger, a rebarreled and free floated GP100, where he's running factory ammo sub-MOA at 500yrds. From a rest, I can hold about 6" right now at 250yrds with one of my Redhawks. I run a Ruger Charger pistol on 8" and 10" steel at 325yrds, not bad for an inexpensive little 22LR with nasty Remington Thunderbolt ammo.

I presume you're really asking more about combat type pistols, Glocks, 1911's, etc. At 10yrds, on good days, I like to be under 2", and on my best days, I can cover my groups with my thumb. A good day with one of my Taurus 85 38spcl's is a 6" group at 25yrds. I regularly shoot a 10" gong at 50yrds with all of my carry pistols, with my G19 and P224, it's not a challenge, with my LCP, it's a 3-4 out of 5 shots game on the first mag or so, then I'll settle in and improve. For my Mark II/III/IV pistols, a 10 shot, 10 yard group should be one large ragged hole with a couple fliers all under 2". Supported, it'll do that at 25yrds, farther on a good day.

 

[stu1ritter]

I was a bullseye shooter for 55 years. High Expert indoors and outdoors. In my older age the shake is getting the better of me with long barrels so I concentrate on short barrels and a 2 hand hold because with just one, I'm shaking like a leaf. This was the Internet Snubby match on the S&W forum this year. 50 feet, 2 hands double action. Once you learn how to shoot and get the basics down, it doesn't matter, you can shoot anything well. I'm out to prove you don't need long barrels.

Stu

 

[Good Ol' Boy]

Depends on what you're talking about.

You mention SD, well that's an entirely different set of parameters than target shooting. SD is more about closer ranges and speed with not much expectation on "tight" groups. No reason to be practicing SD shooting at 25yds or further. 10yds or less is really more practical.

Everyone has aspects of pistol shooting that they're better or worse at. For me it's easier to ping steel at 50yds from a full size semi (target shooting) than it is to unload into a silloute inside an 8 ring at 10yds with my LC9.

Someone who can target shoot well might not necessarily be great at rapid closer SD ranges, and visa versa.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

Since I don't compete, I will be honest and say that I slyly peak at other shooter's groups at the range (sunglasses and peripheral vision stop me from being a creep) to kinda size up where I am because there are so many experts on the internet that it can get very frustrating. If I'm consistently better than most, I don't kick myself in the butt. If there are some people who are outdoing me all the time, then I double down on practice. Kinda like at the gym... If I'm getting out done by someone at my weight, I know I can push myself to keep up because they can.

I think it also depends on how many shots are in a "group". Normally, I load 10 rounds per mag when I shoot (OCD when taking ammo from the box). So at 7 yards, I want all 10 shots to make a nice hole. I make my own targets out of 8.5x11 cardstock paper and trace a gatorade cap as dots. I really want to cut out that gatorade cap with a mag. If I go back to 15 or 25 yards, I want to be "paper plate" accurate. I feel like that is better than the "average shooter". Maybe not guru or competitor, but as a hobbyist, I'd be happy with that.

Also note, I shoot standing offhand with Walmart ammo and "duty" type handguns. I've taken my Blackhawk out to 100 yards but that is a rare occurrence. At least that's me...

 

[JohnKSa]

There are all kinds of answers for this question.

Here's one answer: Ralph Mroz, in the Tactics & Training Column for American Handgunner March/April 2017 says that a decent shooter should be able to hit an 8" or 10" plate can be hit "almost all of the time" at 25 yards when shooting deliberately. He says that a "serious shooter" should be able to hit an 8" plate at 25 yards from low ready in 2.5 seconds or from the holster in 3 seconds.

My standard for myself is that I expect to be able to hit an 8" target at 25 yards with every shot with a decent handgun and ammo unless I'm really rushing. So even with some pressure from the timer I want to keep them all on 8" but as the time crunch starts to tighten I will start to drop some out.

If I can't get down close to 4" groups at that distance when I'm working purely on accuracy then I'm not happy. For example, on my range trip today, I shot my carry gun (Kahr P9) at 21 yards and managed a 5", twenty-five shot group at that distance with the best 24 out of those 25 shots going into 4.25". Later in the same session, when I was starting to tire a bit, I fired a 10 shots with that same gun at 21 yards using my carry ammo and only managed a 5.5" group. I did not feel like I was shooting up to my capability but since I was shooting a subcompact pistol I wasn't as disappointed as I would have been had I been shooting a full-sized pistol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

My handgun shooting is in the areas of practical competition (primarily IDPA) and self defense.

I'd say anyone shooting that at the marksman level is a "good shot," anyone who can get to sharpshooter level is pretty decent, expert level means someone has very strong pistol skills, and master level is really quite impressive.

This is actually a pretty good qualitative standard. Easy to administer, doesn't require many props, and tests basic SD skills...from 5 to 20 yards.

When working with clients, an initial goal is keeping 5 shots on a 3"x5" card at 5-7 yards at 3 shots/sec

 

[walnut1704]

Here on the internet, we all shoot one-hole groups at 25 yards. If we're talking about informal target shooting where time is not a factor, then it's a tough question to answer as everybody is doing different things with their ranges and their targets.

This is a question I asked myself many years ago. I have my own system that, for me, addresses the issue quite well. Let's get real, the targets you see are the best targets that were fired at any given session. Nobody ever posts their worst targets, let alone all their targets. Even the best of us will pull one eventually. That's a given. It's kind of useless to see a cloverleaf group, you gotta ask...how about the rest of the rounds? Did you go out to the range and fire 5 rounds and go home?

So what we need is a relatively simple system that we can use to measure our progress. Pick a range, pick a target. It does not matter what it is, you just need a standard to start with. It should be something that's a bit difficult. When I first started shooting the shortest range available was 25 yards. The bullseye on the target was 6". My goal was to keep 25 rounds (1/2 a box) in that six inches. It worked well that way with the number of targets I could put up and the time elapse between ceasefires.

A decade later I was forced to move to 15 yards. At that point the 6" bullseye was too big so I scaled it down proportionally to 3.6" (6" / 25 = .24" per yard of range). At some point shortly later I just rounded it to 4" but with a 3.6" ring.

So I was shooting at a 4" bullseye at 15 yards. I express my hits on the bullseye as a percentage of the total rounds fired. I record this for every session. You can do moving averages or graphs if you want. Once you get up over 95% consistently you probably need to size your targets down or move the range out. Right now I mostly shoot at a 3" bullseye with a 4" outer ring. I'm about to switch to scoring based on the 3". Obviously I print my own targets.

If you shoot 25 rounds per target, every four targets it's pretty easy to do the math in your head and know where you are. If you're always shooting at different ranges at different targets you have no clue how you're really doing.

So to answer the question I can say with confidence that with one of my target guns, I can hit a 4" circle at 15 yards 97%-98% of the time. I'll have to get back to you on the 3"....

How does that compare? Better than most, but I run into guys who are better. Mostly bullseye guys. But occasionally just another range-rat like myself (ourselves?). Honestly at the range I see an awful lot of people shooting at 7 yards and talking about accuracy.

 

[LiveLife]

Pistol Buying Tip: Before buying any pistol, dry fire while watching the front sight and buy the one that doesn't move or minimally move the front sight when the hammer/striker is released for greater accuracy out of the box. You will start off with smaller shot groups for the same money. And as trigger surfaces smooth out, groups will get smaller.


I expect 1" at 7 yards, 2" at 15 yards and 3" at 25 yards from good factory pistol and ammunition.

Having shot USPSA, many match shooters will consider 2" at 25 yards accurate using match grade ammunition.

My bullseye match shooting and reloading mentor would consider smaller than 2" at 50 yards accurate with bullseye match grade ammunition.

 

[Tallball]

For SD, if I can empty it within a few seconds at seven yards and all of the shots end up on a small paper plate, that is good enough.

At 15 yards, if I can shoot 50 rounds slowly and deliberately and get them all on that same plate, I am happy. Usually there are a couple of fliers.

At 25 yards, if I can get 50 rounds onto a 12" x 12" target, I am happy. Hopefully most of them will be somewhere near the middle.

I am middle aged, don't see so well anymore, and my hands have a slight tremor. My standards were higher when I was younger and healthier.

 

[Tirod]

For SD, 7 ring or better on a torso target at 7 yards. No, police do NOT practice often enough to do that. We won't pay for the weekly expense at the range to get them there, hence the high number of shots vs hits in confrontations. You and I, however, should attempt it if only to reduce hitting bystanders - which should have a major impact in a shoot/don't shoot decision. "They" don't care, but we do. It's not a level playing field.

Next step up can be the "paper plate" group however it's where you put it on that torso target that counts. We read a lot about winter carry and some about the added difficulty of getting thru heavy jackets, etc., but little about the actual targeting of hostiles at close range. It's not what you think it is - bullseye shooting won't teach you that. Train like you fight and not an indoor match where you lay your gun on the table when empty. Bad mojo on the street and it has happened.

 

[0ne3]

I confess, I am primarily a rifle shooter. I shoot rifles for fun, self defense, and hunting.

I have not gotten nearly as much trigger time with pistols as I have had with rifles. I have taken a basic ccw course, and shot pistols occasionally over the past 10 years. I find myself constantly comparing accuracy to rifles where I shoot much tighter groups at much longer ranges.

For pistols, I can get reasonable 5” or so groups at 7 to 10 yards. I can hit on the target at 25 to 35 yards in a 10” group or so.

I mostly shoot for ccw self defense proficiency purposes. I have seen people like hickok45 shoot a gong at 80 yards using snub nose revolvers and am impressed, but I know his abilities are not the norm. I doubt I am much better than an average(less than) shot with a pistol.

Shooting pistols is completely different than shooting a rifle.

My question is what do you consider good shooting with a pistol?

I confess, I am primarily a rifle shooter. I shoot rifles for fun, self defense, and hunting.

I have not gotten nearly as much trigger time with pistols as I have had with rifles. I have taken a basic ccw course, and shot pistols occasionally over the past 10 years. I find myself constantly comparing accuracy to rifles where I shoot much tighter groups at much longer ranges.

For pistols, I can get reasonable 5” or so groups at 7 to 10 yards. I can hit on the target at 25 to 35 yards in a 10” group or so.

I mostly shoot for ccw self defense proficiency purposes. I have seen people like hickok45 shoot a gong at 80 yards using snub nose revolvers and am impressed, but I know his abilities are not the norm. I doubt I am much better than an average(less than) shot with a pistol.

Shooting pistols is completely different than shooting a rifle.

My question is what do you consider good shooting with a pistol?

My 2 cents. Do not worry about what the others are doing. Get a weight and lift it from your wast to shoulder high, it will help strengthen your arm mussels. You can do this any place even while watching TV. Practice trigger control, smooth backward pull. After you pull the trigger do not forget follow through. Practice, Practice, Practice. You will see your self getting better, not right away, but it will come.

 

[doubleh]

At my age I don't want to even discuss my accuracy with a handgun. Let's just say it has deteriorated significantly over the last two decades. Still fairly good from a rest but mostly a waste of ammo offhand.

 

[FL-NC]

Since defense is your endeavor, worry less about group size and more on dynamic shooting speed and accuracy. Presentation shot: stance, draw from holster, sight picture, fire, follow through, sight picture, scan. Do this on a 3" target at 5 yards. Then work your way up to 3 shots on a 8" paper plate. As fast as you can, while maintaining the fundamentals, and not getting fliers, out to 15 yards. If all shots are in the same hole, speed up. If all shots are on the paper plate, you are good. Out to 25 yards, you need to slow down and work with a FBI silhouette, IPSC target, or similar. How fast is fast enough? As fast as you can fire and hit- you can't miss fast enough, and in the real world, you have the rest of your life to get it right. Learn to fire from cover. Advance to firing from seated positions, like in a restaurant. Bring a stool or bucket to the range, and some cardboard to simulate the inside of your car to practice anti-carjacking drills. Bring another COMPETENT shooter with you to observe your performance to point out mistakes and give critiques. Perfect practice makes perfect.

 

[JR24]

I don't compete and try to shoot once a week, so take it how you will.

My personal standards of a "good" range day is keeping my slow fire offhand groups under 2" out to 15 yards, at 25 if I can keep em on a 8" pie plate I'm happy.

If I'm training SD drills, from the holster, moving, transitioning targets, etc, under 15 yards I want all my shots on a 8" plate, 6" circle in the center is preferred.

Works for me anyhow.

 

[John Joseph]

For HD & CCW, all shots in the black on an FBI silhouette, with either and both hands from any distance out to 25 yards (or 50' if that's as far as your range permits.) If using a revolver, then double action.

 

[JTQ]

Lucky Gunner has a handful of test you can try

https://www.luckygunner.com/lounge/start-shooting-better-episode-4-super-test/

 

[LiveLife]

At my age I don't want to even discuss my accuracy with a handgun. Let's just say it has deteriorated significantly over the last two decades. Still fairly good from a rest but mostly a waste of ammo offhand.

Another shooting tip (continued from previous post): I am 51 and already transitioned from bifocals/trifocals to progressive glasses. Be sure to tell your eye doctor you need to see the sights of your pistols. When I told my eye doctor I had difficult time seeing pistol sights, fortunately he was a shooter and told me to always say at eye exams that I need to see my pistol sights. Now I can see the pistol sights and my targets clearly.


Another shooting tip: If accurate defensive shooting is a challenge due to eye sight, shaky hands, etc., consider point shooting as point shooting utilizes muscle memory/coordination mastered over your entire life (Even with eye sight issues and shaky hands, you can still turn on the light switch on the wall without looking, etc.). Over the decades, I have taught many friends/coworkers/relatives/neighbors how to point shoot with 4"-6" groups at typical defensive shooting distance of 5-7 yards using these steps - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/#post-10428857

My defensive shooting instructor, who taught PD/SD SWAT, required us to remove front sight of our pistols and pass/fail was 4"-6" groups called out to multiple targets on cardboard. When a retired coworker had trouble shooting tight groups at 5-7 yards due to eye sight and shaky hands, I taught him point shooting and his groups shrank to average 3 inches. One day at range, I found an older lady in tears because she lived alone and her neighborhood experienced increase in crime and she had hard time hitting a full-size target at 5 yards (she also had eye sight issue and shaky hands). After 20 minute point shooting session, she was getting 4" groups at multiple aim points on target. When she consistently produced 4" groups at will on target, she was in tears with a smile.

Just last month, a peace officer near retirement was referred to me by mutual friend because he was having difficulty qualifying at work with Glock 22 due to eye sight issue. After 15 minutes going over point shooting and practicing at qualification distances, he produced 3"-4" groups at different distances without using the sights.

If you have accuracy issues at defensive shooting distances, try point shooting. At least you have another drill to shoot at the range and impress your shooting buddies (I start my point shooting demonstration with eyes blindfolded at multiple 5-7 yard targets).


Here's Rob Leatham's take on point shooting.



As to shooting accurately and fast - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/point-shooting.814672/page-7#post-10500193



Take a look at this video of what high speed point shooting is capable of - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/aim-or-point-and-shoot.820647/#post-10536495

 

[d2wing]

To answer your question, I am not an expert shot with a pistol and don't often shoot competitively. My motorcycle club composed of combat vets and experienced shooters had a match. I won it with a ten round group about the size of a baseball at 7 yards. Second best was softball size. Most groups were in the 6 inch range. This is probably realistic for a decent shooter offhand unsupported for 10 shots. I don't think some of the bragging on here is realistic for an average shooter. Also best group and average group are not the same thing. If at 7 to 10 yards you can keep all your shots on a paper plate mostly toward the center you are off to a good start. With practice and good technique you can improve from there.

 

[Chuck R.]

My handgun shooting is in the areas of practical competition (primarily IDPA) and self defense.

The basic factor at play is that it doesn't much matter what size a group you can shoot, if you can't do it quickly enough to matter. Few discussions of handgun mastery make much sense if they don't emphasize the speed at which those skills can be employed.

IDPA has a standard classifier match format which tests accuracy vs speed at a variety of distances and compares the score (converted to time) you can produce to a given set of benchmark times.

I'd say anyone shooting that at the marksman level is a "good shot," anyone who can get to sharpshooter level is pretty decent, expert level means someone has very strong pistol skills, and master level is really quite impressive.

Agreed, the classifier is a pretty good assessment tool as it incorporates multiple defensive shooting components into one relatively easily set up test. It actually makes for a decent 72 round practice session. IMHO anytime there's a discussion on defensive pistol skills there needs to be a time component as it adds some level of stress.

Chuck

 

[MrBorland]

I agree the answer depends on the type of shooting, but in general, the one asking the question is asking about just picking up a handgun and shooting a slow-fire group on demand. My answer is, and has been the following: Good (but not outstanding) shooting is a consistent and honest 3" at 25 yards. That's a 5-shot unsupported group with a service-sized handgun under no time constraints on an appropriate bullseye-style target. "Consistent" means this is what you're typically able to do on demand (not the once-in-a-lifetime target you hang on your refrigerator), and "honest" means all shots count - no "fliers". Those shooting SA/DA guns should be able to do this in SA as well as DA.

As far as group size not being relevant if one's interest is SD, I heartily disagree - the fundamentals always matter. If you're a bad shot when you've got all the time in the world and no stress, you're certainly not going to suddenly be competent in a highly stressful situation when those shots really count. If you're competing in runNgun games or mainly interested in SD, working on your marksmanship should be part of every range session.

Speaking of range sessions; combat accuracy at combat speed is fine. Target accuracy at target speed is fine. But the "combat accuracy at target speed" hybrid isn't fine - it's poor shooting, and there's a lot of it out there. Don't delude yourself into thinking this hybrid form is preparing you for anything. All it's doing is making you dangerously overconfident in your own abilities.