Capacity. How much does it matter to you?

[Dirtdawg7988]

I beg to differ.

IF you think your going to be in a firefight --------- DO NOT GO THERE !!!!.

Leave and if possible send in an air strike !.

The best fight is the one you avoided,unless your bulletproof

No, no, no my friend. Screw the air strike, putting a pilot at risk. Opt for a Minute Man nuke. I'm just trying to stress all the capacity in the world isn't going to help unless you can actually put some rounds on target. Train, practice and hope you've pick up some habits that'll kick in during a stressful situation.

Recently locally we had a drunk lady point a toy gun at a Tipp City, Ohio police officer after being warned to drop the weapon. He did as trained and fired...completely missing her. Luckily she dropped the "weapon" and he recognized it before firing again. She's lucky not to have been shot but in the stress laden moment the office whiffed. If had been a real weapon things could have been different and the officer might not have went home that night.

It behooves those of us who carry to get more training/practice than to go to the range once a year.

 

[helitack32f1]

It seems logical to me they if you choose to carry, you should carry the biggest, highest capacity gun in the caliber of your choice that you can easily and comfortably wear and conceal. In my case that is a Glock 19X with 17 in the gun and 18 in an extra mag.

On a side note, it is amusing to me how quickly a question posed about gun capacity ALWAYS ends up in someone saying “Training is more important” or some other thought that doesn’t answer the question.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

In my case that is a Glock 19X with 17 in the gun and 18 in an extra mag.

Who makes 18 round magazines for Glocks?

 

[helitack32f1]

Who makes 18 round magazines for Glocks?

Glock 19X comes with 1-17 round mag and 2-17+2 round mags.

 

[Jim Rau]

Since most civilian encounter don't have shots fired, why do you carry a gun that is loaded? Who has armed encounters - police do and they don't carry J frames anymore. Funny to see old shows with some old Detective with some 6 shot Colt DS.

I like the idea that nice areas only have nice low intensity gun fights. Sounds like a plan to me.

Apples and oranges. Confrontations involving LE are not the same as confrontations involving civilians, not even close. Nice try though!! Now back to the original ???????

 

[Jim Rau]

I don't know if you'd call it being in an armed encounter but I've been in the wrong place at the wrong time three times.

All three times I became one with the ground until the shooting was over.

BUT where these civilian vs civilian, and if so how many rounds were fired by the victim??? I am guessing from your reply that you were not actively involved in the 'shooting'.

 

[BSA1]

It seems logical to me they if you choose to carry, you should carry the biggest, highest capacity gun in the caliber of your choice that you can easily and comfortably wear and conceal.

One would think so except many members on THR take considerable pride in carrying small, underpowered, low capacity handguns. Check out the thread on derringers.

 

[Spats McGee]

Apples and oranges. Confrontations involving LE are not the same as confrontations involving civilians, not even close. Nice try though!! Now back to the original ???????

"Not even close?" Two sides shooting at each other. Physiology is the same. Equipment & load is different. Those things aside, what are the differences that make "confrontations involving LE" so very different from confrontations involving civilians?

 

[Trey Veston]

"Not even close?" Two sides shooting at each other. Physiology is the same. Equipment & load is different. Those things aside, what are the differences that make "confrontations involving LE" so very different from confrontations involving civilians?

Maybe because LEOs are often charged with confronting and stopping a threat, while civilians are expected to retreat from a threat and call an LEO?

I don't know, trying to give the poster the benefit of the doubt in the spirit of forum cohesiveness.

One of my close calls over the years involved me driving to work one rainy spring morning on a rural 2-lane highway when I spotted an individual walking along the side of the road in a blanket.

I immediately slowed down since my first instinct was to help someone in need. As I slowed, I got an overwhelming sense that something was not right. I looked at the person as I started to speed up and I saw a male in his twenties with a face full of evil. I called 911 to report it.

The responding LEO was a friend of a friend and someone who worked an accident I had been involved with a couple of years earlier. Great guy. He rolled up and made contact. The young man in the blanket was mentally ill and started shouting that the LEO was Satan, then produced a kitchen knife and charged the officer. The officer was chased around his patrol car while firing several shots at and into the perp with a Beretta 96. The bad guy went down and later recovered. Last I heard, he is institutionalized and can't eat solid foods due to most of his digestive system being removed.

That is an example of how an LEO confrontation is a bit different from a civilian confrontation. I had a pistol in the center console. Had I stopped, I imagine that the individual would have approached my vehicle, pulled his knife, and shouted his Satan accusation, and I could have sped off and called 911. I had no duty to engage the suspect.

 

[Kleanbore]

Apples and oranges. Confrontations involving LE are not the same as confrontations involving civilians, not even close. Nice try though!!

Well, there is one difference: should the perp decide to go elsewhere, the LEO is obligated to follow, while the civilian is forbidden from doing so.

Other than that, there are no differences, once the shooting starts.

 

[GEM]

I fail to see why if you are in your house of worship and a madman or woman walks in, you would rather have minimal gun. The issue is that once the fight starts - the civilian or police need efficacious guns.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

"Not even close?" Two sides shooting at each other. Physiology is the same. Equipment & load is different. Those things aside, what are the differences that make "confrontations involving LE" so very different from confrontations involving civilians?

He's trying to aggrandize himself

 

[Jim Rau]

Maybe because LEOs are often charged with confronting and stopping a threat, while civilians are expected to retreat from a threat and call an LEO?

I don't know, trying to give the poster the benefit of the doubt in the spirit of forum cohesiveness.

One of my close calls over the years involved me driving to work one rainy spring morning on a rural 2-lane highway when I spotted an individual walking along the side of the road in a blanket.

I immediately slowed down since my first instinct was to help someone in need. As I slowed, I got an overwhelming sense that something was not right. I looked at the person as I started to speed up and I saw a male in his twenties with a face full of evil. I called 911 to report it.

The responding LEO was a friend of a friend and someone who worked an accident I had been involved with a couple of years earlier. Great guy. He rolled up and made contact. The young man in the blanket was mentally ill and started shouting that the LEO was Satan, then produced a kitchen knife and charged the officer. The officer was chased around his patrol car while firing several shots at and into the perp with a Beretta 96. The bad guy went down and later recovered. Last I heard, he is institutionalized and can't eat solid foods due to most of his digestive system being removed.

That is an example of how an LEO confrontation is a bit different from a civilian confrontation. I had a pistol in the center console. Had I stopped, I imagine that the individual would have approached my vehicle, pulled his knife, and shouted his Satan accusation, and I could have sped off and called 911. I had no duty to engage the suspect.

BINGO! There are some here who have not lost touch with reality! Civilians are not obligated 'continue' the fight, just do what is NEEDED to survive not prevail!!
Still no answer to the original question though!!!

 

[Jim Rau]

"Not even close?" Two sides shooting at each other. Physiology is the same. Equipment & load is different. Those things aside, what are the differences that make "confrontations involving LE" so very different from confrontations involving civilians?

See the above reply.

 

[Jim Rau]

Well, there is one difference: should the perp decide to go elsewhere, the LEO is obligated to follow, while the civilian is forbidden from doing so.

Other than that, there are no differences, once the shooting starts.

Actually there is. Even after the shooting starts the civilian should be looking for a 'way out' of the fight, not a way to continue it to the end as a LEO does. There are times when a LEO would be wise to find 'a way out', that being if he is totally out gunned and/or out numbered. But the PROBABILITY of that happening in the real world is VERY LOW!!!

 

[Kleanbore]

Even after the shooting starts the civilian should be looking for a 'way out' of the fight, not a way to continue it to the end as a LEO does

That's very close to what I said.

What kind of "way out" might present itself after the shooting starts other than the attacker's withdrawal?

BTW, do not believe that the LEO is expected to "end it".

 

[GEM]

I would rather try to prevail if I am in the fight (something you fail to understand - the issue is not if you avoided it, but you have to act. Get it?) with something other than a 25 ACP.

You fail to understand the branches of the situation and how you analyze each. Yes, you should avoid a fight. Yes, you should flee if one starts. No, you do not have to pursue someone. We understand that. What you do not understand or choose not for the sake of posturing is that when you go down the branch to be in the fight (perhaps through no fault of your own), efficacious gear is better than non-efficacious gear.

People in the business of training civilians realize that you may carry a smaller gun like a J frame or a G42 because circumstance warrant it. They also train extensively to get the max out of such guns. They do not suggest anything smaller like a 25 ACP (except as an emergency bug or deep concealment because of circumstances). However, if you can (and most can - the hot weather argument is BS, lived in it for 25 years), the professional analysis of what is a reasonable cut off criterion for carry (avoiding the silliness of those who say why not carry a bazooka, haha - you are so clever) that a semi auto with 10 rounds or more (7 or 8 with the new Glocks and others, are on the border with mags), with an extra mag or two is concealable and reasonable.

Get the point - sometimes you can't avoid. Sometimes You Can't Avoid. Do you need an emoji to get through to you? OR CAPITAL LETTERS?

Now you can run away with your 25 ACP. Abandon your wife and kids or others depending or your circumstances.

To conclude - it's not about running away, it's about what you have when you can't. Do you understand this? Or are you just posturing?

 

[John Joseph]

A perp points a gun at a LEO expecting a gun fight
A perp points a gun at a citizen expecting there won't be a gunfight.

A citizen only needs to stop a perp.
An officer needs to stop and arrest the perp.

A LEO can carry larger capacity magazines
A citizen is increasingly more and more restricted from possessing more than 10 round magazines
A perp doesn't care.

A perp knows he's going to attack
A citizen only knows after the attack has begun.

 

[Kleanbore]

A perp points a gun at a LEO expecting a gun fight
A perp points a gun at a citizen expecting there won't be a gunfight.

Irrelevant to the question.

 

[Hartkopf]

In case the “way out” is a long way out, more rounds are better. No harm in not using them if they are not needed.

 

[Mosin77]

I think 5 or 6 is a good minimum. No real need for more and if I do my part, 5 shots should be more than enough to ruin a bad guy’s day or extricate myself from a bad situation, if anything short of a SWAT team can.

But if I can carry 12 in the same space as 5? Why not. Having shot a P365 owned by a friend, I was very impressed.

 

[Spats McGee]

Maybe because LEOs are often charged with confronting and stopping a threat, while civilians are expected to retreat from a threat and call an LEO?

I don't know, trying to give the poster the benefit of the doubt in the spirit of forum cohesiveness.

One of my close calls over the years involved me driving to work one rainy spring morning on a rural 2-lane highway when I spotted an individual walking along the side of the road in a blanket.

I immediately slowed down since my first instinct was to help someone in need. As I slowed, I got an overwhelming sense that something was not right. I looked at the person as I started to speed up and I saw a male in his twenties with a face full of evil. I called 911 to report it.

The responding LEO was a friend of a friend and someone who worked an accident I had been involved with a couple of years earlier. Great guy. He rolled up and made contact. The young man in the blanket was mentally ill and started shouting that the LEO was Satan, then produced a kitchen knife and charged the officer. The officer was chased around his patrol car while firing several shots at and into the perp with a Beretta 96. The bad guy went down and later recovered. Last I heard, he is institutionalized and can't eat solid foods due to most of his digestive system being removed.

That is an example of how an LEO confrontation is a bit different from a civilian confrontation. I had a pistol in the center console. Had I stopped, I imagine that the individual would have approached my vehicle, pulled his knife, and shouted his Satan accusation, and I could have sped off and called 911. I had no duty to engage the suspect.

BINGO! There are some here who have not lost touch with reality! Civilians are not obligated 'continue' the fight, just do what is NEEDED to survive not prevail!!
Still no answer to the original question though!!!

Let me be sure I understand. You believe that because LEOs may or should respond differently to being shot at, I don't need as many rounds? You think I'm "not obligated" to continue the fight, so that somehow changed the number of rounds that I might need to survive? Of course, you are free to assume that an attacker will decide not to continue the fight. I'm not willing to do so. Circumstances may or may not allow me to retreat. In my state, the legal duty to retreat is under very specific circumstances.

Actually, let's look at the heart of the original question.

....My question is, how much does capacity figure into your decision for a carry weapon?

I don't really see any need to delve into whether non-LEO carriers need more or fewer rounds than LEO in order to answer the question. As long as the fight continues, and the attacker fails to "break it off," there is some non-zero chance that I will need to keep shooting.

Actually there is. Even after the shooting starts the civilian should be looking for a 'way out' of the fight, not a way to continue it to the end as a LEO does. There are times when a LEO would be wise to find 'a way out', that being if he is totally out gunned and/or out numbered. But the PROBABILITY of that happening in the real world is VERY LOW!!!

So the difference is in one person's anticipated or desired response to being shot at?

 

[bdickens]

However, if you can (and most can - the hot weather argument is BS, lived in it for 25 years) ...[carry] a semi auto with 10 rounds or more...

Thank you. I live in SE Texas & have somehow been managing to conceal a G19 while wearing anything more than underwear for over 12 years now. Maybe I just didn't know any better when I started out.

Or maybe because I don't conflate "won't" with "can't."

 

[Kleanbore]

5 shots should be more than enough

"Should", maybe, but depending upon exactly where each one hits and at what angle, it may not be.

 

[GEM]

Thank you. I live in SE Texas & have somehow been managing to conceal a G19 while wearing anything more than underwear for over 12 years now. Maybe I just didn't know any better when I started out.

Or maybe because I don't conflate "won't" with "can't."

Me too. A G19 or G26 when it was 100 degrees in San Antonio. Cargo shorts, Under Armor t-shirt and a Magellan light weight fishing shirt from Academy - worked fine.