Capacity. How much does it matter to you?

[Spats McGee]

.... what is a reasonable cut off criterion for carry....

IMHO, this is really the heart of the "what should I carry" decision. Yes, I could physically carry a G21 and a couple of spare mags. But given my usual, routine activities and attire, that's somewhere beyond that 'reasonable cut off.'

My Shield and 2 spare mags may or may not be enough to survive a gunfight. I know that. Would I be better served by a G19 and 2 spares? Yeah, probably. It's also more trouble to carry. Does that mean I "won't" carry them, not that I "can't." Yeah, probably. But the G19 is at the outside of what I can conceal and carry with reasonable comfort. Yeah, I'm old and I'm fat and I prefer comfort to discomfort.

 

[mcb]

Do we have any data on real world self-defense cases where the "good-guy" died due to limited capacity or lived due to executing a reload?

 

[GEM]

Yeah, I'm old and I'm fat and I prefer comfort to discomfort.

I have the same profile and settled on the G26 in an OWB. I have done the G19 at times. The G26 vs the G19 is a .05 level vs. .01 level criteria argument. The J frame is a .10 significant level which is chosen sometimes by sociologists (that's a social science joke).

I never like the G21 feel and my beloved 1911 is a touch heavy for 9 rounds. I have concealed it at times. The G26 hits the mark and with many of the folks I trained with. Shields are popular and the extra mags are good.

 

[Hartkopf]

Do we have any data on real world self-defense cases where the "good-guy" died due to limited capacity or lived due to executing a reload?

.

Definitely a famous incident of a law officer being killed while trying to reload his 5 shot revolver. Can’t remember specifics.

 

[mcb]

.

Definitely a famous incident of a law officer being killed while trying to reload his 5 shot revolver. Can’t remember specifics.

That's LEO, not civilian. Not really what I was hoping for.

 

[bdickens]

Do we have any data on real world self-defense cases where the "good-guy" died due to limited capacity or lived due to executing a reload?

Oh, I'm sure they wouldn't be hard to dig up for someone who was really interested....

 

[mcb]

Oh, I'm sure they wouldn't be hard to dig up for someone who was really interested....

I have tried and failed hence my question here. I have never found a modern case of a civilian using a reload in a self defense shooting. Likewise I have never read about of someone running out of ammo and dieing due to that. I am sure both have happened but it is so rate as to make finding those examples very difficult.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I have tried and failed hence my question here. I have never found a modern case of a civilian using a reload in a self defense shooting. Likewise I have never read about of someone running out of ammo and dieing due to that. I am sure both have happened but it is so rate as to make finding those examples very difficult.

Would it even have made the news?

 

[Kleanbore]

That's LEO, not civilian. Not really what I was hoping for

Unless the LEO were in running gunfight in hot pursuit, that is most likely a distinction without a difference.

In all of the high profile LEO incidents around her in lat six or so years, and in the ones we've seen posted on THR, the officers were shooting while under attack--that is, in self defense.

I have never found a modern case of a civilian using a reload in a self defense shooting.

How many civilians who do become involved in the use of deadly force are sufficiently skilled at reloading to be able to reload in a split second without looking at the gun?

Likewise I have never read about of someone running out of ammo and dieing due to that.

How many armed people are killed, and what do you know about how each of those incidents unfolded? Do you really think that the reports would specify whether or not a defender ran out of ammunition?

 

[Spats McGee]

Even if not one non-LEO, armed, citizen-in-a-gunfight has ever in the course of human history changed the outcome of a gunfight by reloading, I'd still rather have a spare mag and not need it than need it and not have it.

 

[bdickens]

Yeah. I know I'm not the first one to say this, but I have never heard of someone ever having said "you know, I really regret having had so much ammunition with me..."

 

[Hartkopf]

Has there been a case of a defender running low on ammo and changing his mindset because of it? As in he shot 4 of his 5 available rounds and went into conservation mode and then lost the fight? We’ll probably never know that much detail but it has probably happened.

 

[mcb]

My point was there is insufficient data to make hard fast rules. Most of the arguments in this thread are based on conjecture with little hard data. There is not enough data to support having a meaningful statistics based number that is the minimum number of rounds in your CCW.

Humans are horrible at playing the odds since we are so influenced by the risks despite the odds.

I have said it here before and I will say it again, I will take the guy that practices and trains with his J-frame over the guy that thinks his hi-cap means he doesn't have to any day of the week and twice on the day it hits the fan.

 

[Spats McGee]

I don't know about non-LEOs, but there is a story about one officer who decided to increase the number of rounds he carried to 145.

 

[Hartkopf]

I have said it here before and I will say it again, I will take the guy that practices and trains with his J-frame over the guy that thinks his hi-cap means he doesn't have to any day of the week and twice on the day it hits the fan.

I’ll take the guy that practices with his Glock 17

 

[Trunk Monkey]

My point was there is insufficient data to make hard fast rules. Most of the arguments in this thread are based on conjecture with little hard data. There is not enough data to support having a meaningful statistics based number that is the minimum number of rounds in your CCW.

The original post was a subjective question.

How important is capacity to you?

To me capacity is important because it's been my direct, personal experience that Tweakers hunt in packs.

I have said it here before and I will say it again, I will take the guy that practices and trains with his J-frame over the guy that thinks his hi-cap means he doesn't have to any day of the week and twice on the day it hits the fan.

Ok but I'd rather be the guy who practices and trains with his "Hi-cap.

 

[Kleanbore]

My point was there is insufficient data to make hard fast rules.

Bravo! Actual event data won't cut it. There are too many variables for the amount of data.

So--we use other analytical techniques: simulation and Tueller studies to define the time parameters; shooting exercises to evaluate the number of shots possible in that time, and the likely number of hits; anatomical modeling and medical analysis to consider the likely number of hits required.

When we do that ,we realize that "shot placement" does not equate to marksmanship, and much more importantly, that a larger capacity is a lot better than that of a J-frame.

Humans are horrible at playing the odds since we are so influenced by the risks despite the odds

Whatever that is supposed to mean....

 

[mcb]

I’ll take the guy that practices with his Glock 17

The original post was a subjective question.

How important is capacity to you?

To me capacity is important because it's been my direct, personal experience that Tweakers hunt in packs.




Ok but I'd rather be the guy who practices and trains with his "Hi-cap.

Agreed but you guys miss the point. The gun is an accessory. There is so much more to self-defense than the gun.

 

[Hartkopf]

Agreed but you guys miss the point. The gun is an accessory. There is so much more to self-defense than the gun.

There is so much more than the gun but that’s not the point. You are missing the point. We all agree training, practice, mindset and SA are more important. You can have all of that AND high capacity.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Agreed but you guys miss the point. The gun is an accessory. There is so much more to self-defense than the gun.

You assume too much. I've actually been in a few self defense situations. I understand first hand that it's not always about the gun. Do you?

 

[mcb]

You assume too much. I've actually been in a few self defense situations. I understand first hand that it's not always about the gun. Do you?

I think I do, I am still alive.

 

[mavracer]

My point was there is insufficient data to make hard fast rules. Most of the arguments in this thread are based on conjecture with little hard data. There is not enough data to support having a meaningful statistics based number that is the minimum number of rounds in your CCW.

Oh there's plenty of data, that's not the problem there's just way to many variables in the data to draw any hard and fast conclusions.

To me capacity is important because it's been my direct, personal experience that Tweakers hunt in packs.

And according to some people here they are prevalent in wheat fields in the Midwest.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I think I do, I am still alive.

I guess I'm not getting your point.

A Glock 26 and a J frame are pretty close to the same size. So why shouldn't I carry the 26?

 

[Old Dog]

Well, I personally know of a homicide in Tacoma a couple years back where the shooter reloaded, firing 19 total shots at a guy in a car at a gas station.

 

[mavracer]

I guess I'm not getting your point.

A Glock 26 and a J frame are pretty close to the same size. So why shouldn't I carry the 26?

To me the G26 makes about as much sense as the SP101 with Hogues. The grip is too big for most pockets and as a IWB/OWB there's no reason to go to that short of barrel. And don't think I'm picking on Glock there's a bunch of guns that fill the tweener gap EG XD subcompacts and.3" 1911s.
But I do tend to agree it's hard to justify carrying revolvers and relatively low cap single stacks on your beltline in 2020.