Sure but IMHO until you start doubling or tripling capacity you're fooling yourself as to your capabilities of handling realistic scenarios.
And it seems a lot of folks here believe their Ford Pinto is a huge upgrade from a Beatle.
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Capacity. How much does it matter to you?
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And it seems a lot of folks here believe their Ford Pinto is a huge upgrade from a Beatle.
That really doesn't hold water as an argument. Why then do you wear a seat belt, have air bags, have frames on cars that are now designed to keep the engine from crushing you?
It has been determined that those are reasonable equipment for helping you survive in most accidents.
Experts in civilian gun usage, which I assure you Kleanbore and myself know, have shoot with, have studied with, plus studying the literature and visual incident reports, taking part in high end simulations and FOF run by experts and competed in matches - conclude that for the tail of the incident intensity distribution, a standard rig like semi with 10 rounds and an extra mag or two is a reasonable criterion cut (as if you were determining the statistical significant level based on useful effect size) for the incident distribution we might face, ranging from a no shot DGU, a one or two opponent situation to a rampage horror show.
Thus the nomex suit argument is cute but doesn't really add anything to the analysis. Having a 10 round or more gun and an extra mag isn't that extreme.
One carries a smaller gun because:
1. Dress convenience - you accept that you have a gun that doesn't really give you a multiple opponent, longer time in the fight gun.
I understand that and if you acknowledge that without the snark, it is understandable.
2. You are posturing about how you can do the job with one shot or two. We hear that a great deal. I can make a head shot under pressure as I can do it at a slow pace on the square range.
I'll go out with a J or a G42 if circumstance mitigate that. However, I have shot Js and the 42 in classes and matches. It is not optimal, even though I shoot them well.
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We are just getting silly replies. As Joe Biden says - Here's the deal:
Number 1. You only need two shots from a shotgun fired in the air or through the door.
Number 2. It is not hard to carry the load recommended - a semi with 10 or more rounds and an extra mag. I'll say that carrying the newer 7 or 8 round guns is ok if you carry some extra and truly practice reloads under speed and stress.
If you reply with an exaggerated reply of some carry gun - you are just being foolish. If you carry something like an old fashion revolver - be honest enough to admit that you are taking the risk of being ready for the lower end of the incident intensity spectrum. If you think it is cute to be an old toot saying that - here's one old tool who doesn't think it is cute and I know lots of old toots with experience and training that agree with me.
Number 1. You only need two shots from a shotgun fired in the air or through the door.
Number 2. It is not hard to carry the load recommended - a semi with 10 or more rounds and an extra mag. I'll say that carrying the newer 7 or 8 round guns is ok if you carry some extra and truly practice reloads under speed and stress.
If you reply with an exaggerated reply of some carry gun - you are just being foolish. If you carry something like an old fashion revolver - be honest enough to admit that you are taking the risk of being ready for the lower end of the incident intensity spectrum. If you think it is cute to be an old toot saying that - here's one old tool who doesn't think it is cute and I know lots of old toots with experience and training that agree with me.
mcb
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I mentioned the idea of reloading in a self-defense situation and was promptly chastised by Kleanbore as unrealistic...
Not sure if this really contributes anything or not. If I am carrying 99% of the time it is a .40 flavored M&P 2.0 Compact. So I have thirteen plus one in the gun & a fifteen round spare magazine. However I voted 7 or 8 plus one because at times I want to be as discreet as possible. Those times are when I carry a Kahr CM9. There are also times (such as at work) when carrying a pistol would be more of a liability than an asset so I don't. Do I think it better to have 10 rounds or more in the pistol with more rounds available? Yes. Do I believe that is always possible. No. We all have to operate within the confines of our circumstances.
I hear you on that, Hartkopt. 10 was a pretty standard recommendation as a minium. A Glock 19 and an extra mag is a rig that is not hard to conceal. I'll mildly disagree with my friend on a reload not being part of the paradigm.
mcb
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I think that’s just habit for him!
I would hate to expect to rely on a reload though. Magazines can fail but I would much rather have a full size with 18 rounds than a compact with 10 and a spare mag with 10 more. In this case, I’ll take 18 over 20.
I would hate to have to use my CCW at all and if I get to the point of needing the reload, things will have gone extraordinarily pear-shaped but pear-shaped or not I am going to use the reload if I can. I carry it, I train with it, I expect I will use it as I have trained. I pray to god that will never be tested but that is the plan.
mcb
Member
Yes.
I agree - thus, I like the higher cap gun also. The reload is in a more entangled, more than one opponent situation where you are doing more than just the first volley of shots. I can do a pretty quick reload but I'm not standing there when someone is running at me. Folks should try that and learn the techniques of disrupting the charging movement and firing at the opponent. Take more than the square range to learn that.
Also, as stated many times, the extra mag is useful when the gun malfunctions and you want to stay in the game. Sometimes a tack, rack doesn't do it and you have to ditch the mag. A 1911 malfunction can lead you to ripping out the mag and you need to drop it to use your hands. Then the belt reload is the best way.
Of course, with a 1911 you only need on shot on the guy's thumb to knock him over.
SteadyD
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He has posted video reloading on the run during competition and he’s very fast and smooth. It was pretty darn impressive...
Great.
I've seen Rob Pincus drop a mag and reset the gun when a malfunction occurred. As I recall , it took him about two seconds, or maybe a little less.
He has practiced a lot. I have done that in training , but cannot begin to do that.
In two seconds, an attacker of average fitness can move thirty feet.
It's a great skill to hone, but I cannot rely on it.
SteadyD
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MCB was reloading a moonclip fed revolver and it was way faster than 2 seconds. I don’t even know if it took 1 second. I don’t have that sort of skill at all, but I don’t see why that should keep anyone from carrying a reload should they choose to.
Of course not.
So practiced skills, a higher cap gun and an extra mag or two makes sense to me. My revolver reloads of a standard revolver with a speed loader are not the fastest. However, I have come in second after a national champ who is at Miculek level. Oh wait, we were the only two guys shooting revolver - LOL.
The analogy is far more appropriate than you're giving it credit for.
5 shot snub = no seat belt
10 shot auto = seat belt
Either one is probably fine in a minor scrape, thing is you think your seatbelt is gonna save you in a high speed multi car pile up.
To tell the truth I didn't even wear my seat belt yesterday when I drove the block n a half home from the park.
Old Dog
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And one who's determined and only moderately fit can move twenty-one feet and inflict at least one potentially fatal stabbing or slashing wound with an edged weapon before a trained officer can draw and fire one center-mass shot from an open-carry rig … in a second and a half.
Sounds like we should flashback to school yard years of playing “tag” and try to practice reloads while avoiding a person being able to reach out and touch (or cut) you. It’s been many decades for me but I remember one on one games of avoiding a tag. Obviously way less stress than avoiding a knife but the techniques would be similar if outright running away is not an option.
mcb
Member
This is with my competition gear doing a little dry fire practice before a USPSA match. 2.04 sec reload Click to Click.
My magazine feed reloads are quicker (no recent video). My reloads with my CCW rigs are slower due to cover garments and less than optimal magazine/moonclip locations. Moving reloads are slower too but not much, especially with the magazine fed guns.
Going to ramble. I had grown up shooting Service Rifle matches (Camp Perry was a 2-hour drive from home) and NRA small bore. When I left college I got into handgun shooting (We had very few handguns around growing up, we were a shotgun and rifle family). I got tired of standing in the booth at the local indoor shooting range. Was not allowed to draw from a holster was not allowed to shoot too quick etc. I wanted a sport that made full manipulation of the weapon and freedom of movement part of the sport, reloading, malfunction clearing etc. I went digging around on the internet and found USPSA and IDPA. USPSA was closer so I started there. I would also get into IDPA a few years later. Shorty after finding the USPSA club I got my CCW and the group I shot with would train, take classes (both competition and self defense oriented) together. Periodically we shot our carry gear at the local USPSA matches just for fun and extra practice. I was shooting my body weight in bullet in a summer of matches, and training.
One last story. Now the reloads just come natural. Four season ago I shot two does about 30-40 seconds apart one morning from a deer stand with my revolver (I have posted the picture a few times). This was my first (and second deer) with a handgun so I was very excited. I get down, text my brother, have a nice look at both deer and where I hit them, dragged both deer into the food plot to be loaded in the Ranger etc. Brother shows up and we go to take that picture. I wanted my revolver out for the picture so I drew it from my chest rig and unloaded for the picture and sure enough there was a full moonclip in the revolver and the partial in my coat pocket. I don't consciously ever remember reloading that revolver in the excitement of downing two deer. Not sure if I did it before or after I climbing down from the deer stand, my guess would be before but I don't remember when.
Reloads can and should become second nature just like the rest of your draw, shooting, and malfunction clearing. If you don't have to think about how to manipulate your weapon it keep the brain free to be tactical.
-rambling as usual
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Capacity does not matter. A 5 shot revolver beats a 20 shot full size pistol that you left at home. Low capacity guns tend to be a lot more comfortable to carry. Full size guns are more likely to stay at home. Bad guys prefer to go after people that are not going to fight back. Fire a shot and he most likely will find something better to do. If a bad guy wants to have a shoot out instead getting out of there, you have a rather serious problem no matter how much ammo you have. And then there is the extended shoot out with a whole gang of bad guys scenario. In that case you are just screwed unless you have back up. Even then you are probably still screwed.
A lot of you people watch too many movies and over think everything. Get the gun that you will actually have with you when you need it and be happy that you have some way to defend yourself.
A lot of you people watch too many movies and over think everything. Get the gun that you will actually have with you when you need it and be happy that you have some way to defend yourself.
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