Gang Bangers and Your CCW

[Sam1911]

We talked about a guy who waited in his house with a loaded 12 gauge for the gang bangers to break into it (again). Ended up shooting one of them.
Can the "Castle Doctrine" be used here?

Depends on the wording of the law in your state, but usually, yes. Going out to find someone and shoot them is illegal (of course). Shooting someone who is breaking into your home and who exhibits means, motive, and opportunity to hurt or kill you (unless there are grossly extenuating circumstances like you baiting them to come, etc.) is often justifiable.

 

[bruzer]

Thanks for the information Snowy. I am planning on turning my application in for my concealed handgun license. With my DD-214 I won't be attending a formal class but I do appreciate you sharing your experiences from your class.
Mike

 

[M2 Carbine]

I cringe to ask... and what would you have done if you'd found him? Gone to prison for his murder? Or assault? Or given him a stern talking to? Bought him lunch and asked him not to be so mean?

Of course I can't honestly answer that as I didn't find him.

The best answer probably is, maybe something like this might occur,
While I would calmly try to explain to him that I don't think he should kill my Wife and instead he should change his ways and become a nice person, he might try to shoot me with the 44 Mag that he used later.
Even though I would regret it terribly, I would have No other choice but to defend myself.

Of course that's all speculation and being the nice guy I am I'm sure I could convince that fellow to change the error of his ways.

I guess the unarmed man that he killed with the 44 mag, in front of his wife, just wasn't as smooth a talker as myself.

Yes indeed. Some suggestions:
Remain armed,
stay alert, very alert,
take steps to improveyour home security, and
avoid doing anything stupid that would result in your incarceration or in the loss of the tools you need to protect yourself and your family.

All taken care of, but the simple fact is, if there is nothing to stop someone who wants to kill you (or loved ones), there's not a lot you can do to stop them, except stop them.

That's tragic. It wasn't your job to find him (you were not sworn to do so, nor were you indemnified or working within the constructs of legitimate law enforcement), and most importantly, you stayed alive, unhurt, and out of prison.

If not my job to protect my Wife, then who's job is it? Who's job was it to protect the man that was killed? Last I heard the Police aren't even legally responsible to protect anyone. (not bad mouthing the Police, I was LEO years ago myself)

I wouldn't try to tell anyone how to handle such a situation but personally, I wasn't going to let anyone hurt my Wife.

So guys, that's all I say about this because how each one of us would handle such a situation is their own business.
But do take threats seriously.




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[9mm+]

But do take threats seriously.

Amen to that!

 

[ForumSurfer]

So guys, that's all I say about this because how each one of us would handle such a sutuation is their own business.

Not in S&T. This is where we discuss what should be done in a given situation. If you post about a reaction, it will be analyzed by others.

I'm going to agree that "going after someone" just isn't sound, no matter what the situation is. I've been in a similar situation to what you described, and I didn't view my "going after the guy" as being helpful. I couldn't legally do anything.

I'm not criticizing you, brother. Just arguing that the logic doesn't seem sound to me.

 

[M2 Carbine]

I'm not criticizing you, brother. Just arguing that the logic doesn't seem sound to me.

I understand.

I've had years to think about it and honestly, given the details at the time, going after the guy still looks like the best course of action.
One thing was, my work kept me away from home a week at a time, leaving my Wife completely alone, in the country.

I know the Sheriff was suprised he didn't get a call that I had to shoot that guy in self defense.

 

[dirtykid]

as years pass since my first class to obtain my permit to carry,i realize that my instructors (2-retired cops) DID NOT stress the importance of the RESPONSIBILITY you carry along with that chunk-o-steel on your hip.. As another fellow shooter put it once "you have to think,if i pull the trigger,would a jury of my fellow citizens be able to understand how i felt my life was in danger". it all comes down to "can you avoid the conflict" if so then you MUST,,

 

[Ole Coot]

Not much to say, LEOs have their hands tied and must be politically correct. A clear case of SD will cost you time, money and more. I have no problem in the area I now live, still carry always and brought back my old training and added a walking stick or cane. I have used firearms but never in the USA and hope I never will have the need. Wish I knew the answer but I don't.

 

[jbrown50]

I think Snowy Rivers handled it extremely well.

The student asked the question and Snowy addressed it extensively.

The student now knows, without a doubt, that what he contemplated is illegal. One of the purposes of the class is to enlighten and to reinforce the legalities of self defense. It's not to just boot someone out because that person asked a question about something that we assumed he should already know. I'd rather have a student ask the question while in class and get straightened out than for that former student to end up in jail for excercising a serious error in judgement on the street.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I'd rather have a student ask the question while in class and get straightened out than for that former student to end up in jail for excercising a serious error in judgement on the street.

The courtroom is the LAST place a person wants to learn that they misunderstood the legal implications of self defense. I cite this link so frequently I should probably be paying royalties to Skip, but the lecture outlined here was some of the best training in the legal aspects of self defense I've ever had. See http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm . In short - there ARE people in prison today who thought they were legally defending themselves and their families. Skip interviewed them in prison, along with hundreds of other convicted felons.

lpl

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M2 Carbine: if there is nothing to stop someone who wants to kill you (or loved ones), there's not a lot you can do to stop them, except stop them.

That's a fact.

If not my job to protect my Wife, then who's job is it? Who's job was it to protect the man that was killed? Last I heard the Police aren't even legally responsible to protect anyone. (not bad mouthing the Police, I was LEO years ago myself)

None of that is the point. The point is, if you employ deadly force, how can you justify it? Were you faced with imminent danger at the time?

I've had years to think about it and honestly, given the details at the time, going after the guy still looks like the best course of action....I know the Sheriff was suprised he didn't get a call that I had to shoot that guy in self defense.

Defending oneself on the basis of self defense after having gone "after the guy" would likely have not been successful. See these snippets from the link provided above by Lee Lapin:

9. Provocation as motive.

a. Any action a Practitioner engages in that can be interpreted as provocative will be reviewed for its role in creating the need for use of force.​

10. Mutual combat as evidence of motive.

a. Failing to take any opportunity to avoid or disengage an antagonist will be reviewed for the role those failures played in the need to use force.​

I wouldn't try to tell anyone how to handle such a situation but personally, I wasn't going to let anyone hurt my Wife.

A noble sentiment indeed, but if one does something that results in his being disarmed and/or imprisoned, he will not have achieved that objective.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

My whole thrust is to give people the best possible tools and advice to work with.

If I dont have the answer, I will at least try my very best to get a good answer.

The student in question was in just a few minutes ago and has finished submiting hios paperwork to the county for his CCW.

The Local police have been back in touch with him and they are indeed planing a sting of some sort.

The apt building is notorious for Gang Bangers and it should not take too much for the cops to lure them fools out and then lay the strong arm on them.

Meth sales and all sorts of other stuff going on there.
They will certainly set things up and get as much goody from the bust as they can.

If they make the bust for dealing drugs, the pukes will go away for a while.

Just street thug crap is not going to yield as much me thinks.

Our CCW classes can get very entailed at times.
One past class had the entire staff of the County DA's office in here for CCW certs.

I am supprised that the Sheriffs office did not handle it, but they did not.

That class was really good for us as we had the assistant DA in here too.
OHHHH yesss I used the class to educate myself as much as I could.

Not often that you can have an audience with the DA without being on the wrong side of things.

Keeping the faith

Snowy

 

[Corporal K]

I am seeing a growing trend, of people fed up with Gang Bangers that are ready to gather up a group of "Buddies", head off to gang town and basically start a war.

There is a HUGE difference b/t talk and action. The local chiropractor, Home Depot manager and software engineer who took Tactical Carbine I and II together are NOT going to go commando on a bunch of MS-13 or Crips.

Now the SEAL story, if true, is much more believable.

 

[zorro45]

"We talked about a guy who waited in his house with a loaded 12 gauge for the gang bangers to break into it (again). Ended up shooting one of them." I'm sure this will get deleted, but was there a failure to feed after the first round was fired?

 

[M2 Carbine]

Quote:
I wouldn't try to tell anyone how to handle such a situation but personally, I wasn't going to let anyone hurt my Wife.

A noble sentiment indeed, but if one does something that results in his being disarmed and/or imprisoned, he will not have achieved that objective.

"noble sentiment"? I don't think you get it.

You are talking about me losing my gun rights or maybe going to jail.

I'm talking about my Wife being killed.

Although the chances are nothing would have happened to me, (long story) but if losing my gun rights or going to jail is what it took, that means nothing compared to protecting my Wife.

I was dealing with a guy that shot an unarmed man in the head with a 44 mag, right in front of his wife. That's about as serious as it gets.

Like I said, talking about it is one thing, being faced with it is an entirely different matter.

 

[uspJ]

I have to agree with M2 Carbine on this one. Sometimes we're put in less than perfect situations with less than perfect ways of handling them. Sometimes you have to sacrifice to protect what you love. My little sister was being stalked about a year ago. The guy had a restraining order on him and repeatedly broke it. The police said that they couldn't act because each time she had no witness or proof. I took care of the problem. I knew full and well going into the situation that I could face severe criminal charges but made the choice regardless of that fact. The guy is alive and well and has moved on with his life and has not bothered my family since I intervened. If I had lost my right to carry or had to do a stretch and still got the same results I would have called that a fair trade, others may not.YMMV.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M2 Carbine: I don't think you get it.

You are talking about me losing my gun rights or maybe going to jail.

I'm talking about my Wife being killed.

I'm talking about both.

....if losing my gun rights or going to jail is what it took, that means nothing compared to protecting my Wife.

If it works out that way, OK. But if you lose your gun or go to jail without having solved the problem, you have simply increased her level of danger.

"Noble sentiment" refers to your wanting to carry out your objective of protecting her.

In the event, you did not protect her at all. You went after him, but you didn't find him. Now, what were the other possible outcomes?

1. You meet him, make your point, and leave, and he no longer poses a threat (but how would you know that?);
2. you meet him, make your point, and leave, and he returns later;
3. you meet him, threaten him with a gun, he or someone else reports you, you are charged with aggravated assault or armed criminal action, and at least until the situation is resolved in your favor, if perchance it ever is, you cannot protect her;
4. you meet him and he shoots you (how do you protect her then?);
5. you meet him and eliminate the threat (and hope that she no longer needs you to protect her from others, or to provide for her).

You were evidently banking on number 1, or maybe on number 5, but neither occurred.

What are the odds of each of the possible outcomes? I don't know and neither does anyone else, but the likelihood of successfully protecting her by going after the guy does not seem high enough to me to make me want to take the chance of having her left defenseless.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Stay Prayed up, Learn the Law for your state, Practice Often and Keep your Lawyer on Speed Dail.

 

[qcsmitty]

Yes, but you're missing my point. I can't control what anyone decides to do in their own time, but I can control whether I facilitate the commission of a crime via issuing a CCW to that person. If the person gets a CCW from someone else, then so be it, but it's not going to happen on my watch.

Thank you. Well stated.

 

[M2 Carbine]

What are the odds of each of the possible outcomes? I don't know and neither does anyone else, but the likelihood of successfully protecting her by going after the guy does not seem high enough to me to make me want to take the chance of having her left defenseless.

OK, put yourself in that position.

Let's say I'm the BG. Like the nut case in question, for some reason (again that long story) I have told your loved one (Wife or maybe children) that I'm going to kill them (actually stab them was the threat).

You are certain that this is not just an idle threat that will just go away. (You have been around long enough to know a blowhard from a dangerous nut case)

Law enforcement can't do any more than talk to me because I haven't done anything and because it's just one person's word against another. (The Sheriff actually did talk to the guy and of course he said he knew nothing about it.)

It's near impossible for you and your wife to protect your wife from me 24 hours a day for an unknown length of time. (I didn't know the guy's background but I have to assume, like me, he was trained enough to carry out the threat)

I figure you have two choices.
1. You either take the fight to him on your terms and where you have the advantage of winning and legally CYA.

2. Put your loved one's life on the line by hunkering down and maintain the best defense you can, for some unknown length of time. (Believe me, this would not work for very long and you are just throwing your wife's life and possibly your life away. You may even win, but are you willing to bet your loved one's life on it?)

So what would you do?



Sorry that I've taken this some distance from "Gang Bangers and Your CCW" but I thought a real life deadly threat incident would somewhat relate to real life threats from Gang Bangers



.

 

[Hoppes Love Potion]

Snowy Rivers, I find your first 2 posts in this thread wildly contradictory. In the first, you explain to the guy in the CCW class that going vigilante is a serious no-no. In the 2nd post, you are cheerleading what you believe is a vigilante act.

Am I missing something?

 

[ForumSurfer]

1. You either take the fight to him on your terms and where you have the advantage of winning and legally CYA.

Just playing devil's advocate...but I don't see where option 1 is an option at all. If I go with the intention of confronting him, it isn't legal. I'm either looking to assault him or deliver a threat. Now all of a sudden your threat is suddenly in a position to legally defend himself from you.

Not criticizing you, just looking at it from the perspective as if I were a DA who might want to prosecute you.

I know how frustrating a situation like that can be. I've seen first hand that a restraining order is nothing but paper with a loved one that was in trouble.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Just playing devil's advocate...but I don't see where option 1 is an option at all. If I go with the intention of confronting him, it isn't legal. I'm either looking to assault him or deliver a threat. Now all of a sudden your threat is suddenly in a position to legally defend himself from you.

As I've said a few times it's a longer story and I really don't want to go into the details any deeper. It probably wouldn't even be suitable for THR.

Just assume that I was covering my butt and whatever happened I would be OK legally.

So, as I said, IMO the only choices were to go after the guy on my terms or wait until he came after me on his terms.


Probably that's about as far as we can carry this incident since that's about all the info I would post on a Web Site.

I went after him. He killed someone else before I found him. He went to jail for a couple years (yes, just a couple years). I didn't know he was out until some time later. When released he headed out of the area.



Hopefully none of you all are never put in that extreme situation, but there are a awful lot of bad guys out there.






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[Sam1911]

FS has it exactly right. As horrible as the situation is, you cannot provoke or seek out a confrontation and claim a legal justification for self-defense.

Claiming you were "just going to talk" will only protect you so far. An instance with two people with a known history of bad blood, in which one ends up killing the other, is going to be heavily investigated. The fact that you were in his yard, or at his work, or his favorite bar, etc. and just happened to have brought along your shotgun, etc. are going to speak against your reasonable self-defense claim. Yes, you may have gotten "lucky" and he might have attacked you on sight, in front of witnesses who will testify that you had no choice but to shoot, but that's a lot of "hoping."

If there is any evidence to show that you sought him out to force a confrontation, you would become the attacker, and (regardless of prior history or even a criminal record) someone being attacked has the right to defend himself.

A very tough and horrible situation, but ending up in jail or dead doesn't help your loved ones.

EDIT: Just saw post 48. We will say no more on the matter, then.

 

[heeler]

And here is the exact rub I spoke of in post #2.
These gang members live pretty much outside the law.
Most have been thru the justice system and they know how the system works.
We as citizens are at a distinct disadvantage dealing with them because we are the people who get up out of bed Monday through Friday at 5:00 a.m. to go to work,we pay our bills,try to do the right thing and live within the law so we can have a civil society.
These guys dont really care and they truely know we are worried about getting crossways with our system and will go to great lengths to try to stay on the right side of law and order.
They know you have a home and that's where they can always find you.
They on the otherhand just "live" where they lay up at that time.
It is true they dont want to get caught and they certainly dont want to get hurt but some of the ones I have had dealings with really dont think they are actually going to live to be that old anyway.
These guys are a dangerous cancer to society and for the most part will never change.
Stay away from them if you can and going up against them will always be you against very many of them.