Gang Bangers and Your CCW

[Snowy Rivers]

Yesterday afternoon I had a CCW class with several people.

We are in the classroom and getting right into the meat and potatoes of things, when one student asks about "Preemptive action" ????????

I take a deep breath all knowing what was to follow. (At least the concept)

Seems he had been assaulted some time ago by a bunch of local bangers from the other side of town (Even small towns have them it seems now)

OK, the "Student" it seems had been roughed up pretty good and his wallet stripped of its cash and the windshield of his car mashed, (Just to make a statement)

The time was about 5pm and very subdued light. The fellow saw the apartment they came from but in the dim light could not see most of the faces.

He was not carrying (reason to come take the class and fix that situation)

Further discussion went right where I figured he would take it.

He is of the mindset that he can just lay in waiting and when the pukes come out some dark night, that he can exact revenge and just have a field day, and scare the heck out of these clowns.

I spent the next 30 minutes explaining to the entire group that the sort of stuff that had been brought to the table here was called "Vigilanteism" and was a quick trip to the Gray Bar Hilton.

I fully understand that none of us wants to get beat up, robbed and our car damaged by the likes of this sort of dispicable element.

We can't exact revenge or take action after the fight is over.

This conversation is a double edged sword for an instructor to deal with.
It must be dealt with, as the group as a whole may well quickly adopt the idea that all pukes are fair targets.

None of us wants to get in a gunfight, and for those of you who as professionals have been there, I need not mention it.

I have been to the Brink twice, and luckily the gun coming out stopped the incident.

After spending the extra time on the subject of "Hunting Gang Bangers" being a NO NO I finished the class with no other supprises.

After class I held the one student (had the runin with the gangers) and placed a call to the local Pds Gang officer and had him stop by the shop.

The officer sat and spoke in private to the fellow who had the issues and they planned some strategy.

I do believe that a sting is going to be set up and the Bangers will likely get busted.

Unfortunately these sort of dispicable types will come back and sooner or later we all may face some of them.

I did not write this post to enlighten the old hands, but possibly it will point out something to some newbies to the world of CCW.

To anyone here that does training for CCW, please do take the time to include sceanarios like this in your lecture time.

I am seeing a growing trend, of people fed up with Gang Bangers that are ready to gather up a group of "Buddies", head off to gang town and basically start a war.

OMG, even though we have the right to protect ourselves, society and the law are not going to ever permit the sort of actions that some folks think that they can do.

Equal protection under the law is just that.

We see a lot of interesting discussions come up during class sessions, but this is the first time that we got this deep in to the subject of Gang Bangers.

If anyone would like to add to this, I think we can make something very good here that can be useful to a lot of people.

Just some thoughts.

Snowy

 

[heeler]

Where I live the area is innudated with people from Mexico and Central America and a lot of these people are here illegally.
With this comes a lot of gangs and some are pretty notorious here in Houston.
I brought a scenario up in my CHL class regarding a situation with these types as they are never alone,almost always young,and they know the system and they know that you being a regular person the system keeps you in check out of fear of legal repurcussions.
These guys DON'T care.
In my area I know them by the tats or clothing and try to avoid them.
But more to the point sadly it seems there is always someone in the class that has it in their head the carry license is some sort of 007 license and puts them right up there with a LEO or Superman.

 

[ForumSurfer]

(Even small towns have them it seems now)

Amen to that.

I am seeing a growing trend, of people fed up with Gang Bangers that are ready to gather up a group of "Buddies", head off to gang town and basically start a war.

Much of it has to do with more and more middle class people being exposed to it for the first time in their life. Most people in my area are oblivious to the gang problems (I was once one of the oblivious ones) even when there are spray painted tags all around. They don't "get it" until they take their child to a nice park only to find "BK" tags, used condoms and a broken syringe stuck to the bottom of little Sally's flip-flop under the bridge by the creek. Once they find out about gang signs and see that they are in more places than they realized...well suddenly everyone wants to "do something" and wonders why police and others are "doing nothing."

Community activism and getting involved with local agencies reaching out for help (and they always are) works...vigilantism just gets you a jail term and accomplishes nothing.

 

[Jeff White]

The best thing you can do with a gang problem is report everything to the police. Use common sense and don't go the the places they frequent if you can avoid it.

In many cases you might find that the local political leadership wants to stick their head in the sand and pretend their isn't a problem because that would be bad for economic development. In that case you are going to need to hammer your local elected representatives about this every chance you get. Go to the city council meetings, speak personally with your councilmen or aldermen and the mayor.

There are effective gang programs that local law enforcement can employ but they must have the cooperation of the population to be successful. Many departments in this area use a program called 97/3 to keep a handle on the gangs. It was developed by a chief in a town near here and it basically recognizes that 97% of the people are good people who don't break the law and cause any trouble, it's the other 3% who does. The department knows who that 3% is and they get all the attention. The vehicle code and local ordinances are enforced to the letter of the law to that 3%. Pretty soon they get tired of all the attention and move to a less restrictive place where they can operate with impunity. As soon as the gangs realize that the people and the police aren't intimidated by them they look for other places to go.

Just report everything to the police. If they are being proactive they can make the problem go away.

Take note that the way a private citizen helps in this effort is to report what goes on to the police and to testify in court if necessary. Confronting the gang bangers is not part of the program.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

yessss

I agree that the middle class mindset generally does not notice as you mentioned until their little noses get it on them.

Sad for sure.

I fully understand what the community policing tries to do.
Unfortunately, this strategy is also understood well by the bangers and they know that unless they are hauled up for Murder or other capital crime, that they will be back on the street in short order.

A few years back there was a real serious gange issue a few towns away.
The problem got to the point that it was just a bridge too far, the citizens formed a task force, got local LE involved and it did little except create a real sad joke.

This task force was soon disbanded and the gangs resumed full speed ahead.

About a month later an older couple was badly beaten and robbed at gun point in their home by these same pukes.

The issue had finally come to the braking point, the old couples son is a Navy seal and came home on leave to find his parents having been beaten and thrashed.

I do not know the exact sequence of events that followed and I will not speculate here, but within a few days the gang presence was gone and it has not returned.

You can fill in the blanks as you see fit.

These are rare occurences, sadly they dont happen more often.

I really would like to have been a mouse in the corner when that Seal took care of things, probably was specatcular for sure.

Snowy

 

[Fred Fuller]

None of us wants to get in a gunfight,

My sainted mother in law (a preacher's wife, former missionary, first woman mayor of her small town etc) has a saying she's taught to her kids, her grandkids, and is now teaching to a new generation of great-grandkids. It's appropriate for a lot of the situations we examine here, I think.

What she says is, "It isn't enough 'not to want to.' We have to want not to."

The difference may sound subtle- but it isn't.

lpl

 

[ForumSurfer]

In many cases you might find that the local political leadership wants to stick their head in the sand and pretend their isn't a problem because that would be bad for economic development. In that case you are going to need to hammer your local elected representatives about this every chance you get. Go to the city council meetings, speak personally with your councilmen or aldermen and the mayor.

I agree. Many times local law enforcement is wanting to get more involved, but get their hands tied by political strings tying to pretend the problem isn't there or they simply aren't getting enough funding due to political will forcing funds in other directions. Either way, getting involved and making your voice heard can and does make a difference.

 

[Jeff White]

The issue had finally come to the braking point, the old couples son is a Navy seal and came home on leave to find his parents having been beaten and thrashed.

I do not know the exact sequence of events that followed and I will not speculate here, but within a few days the gang presence was gone and it has not returned.

You can fill in the blanks as you see fit.

Things like this don't happen in a vacuum. Surely there is a news article somewhere online you can point us to that will tell about the aftermath of this heroic action? Surely gang bangers turned up severely injured or dead, maybe things were even burned or otherwise destroyed. These kinds of things don't escape the notice of the police and the press....What details made the news?

 

[9mm+]

To anyone here that does training for CCW, please do take the time to include sceanarios like this in your lecture time.

The only time that this scenario comes up in my classes is to EXPRESSLY state that this is illegal in North Carolina and not justified self-defense. "Pre-emptive action" is not a legal use of deadly force for CCW holders or anyone else for that matter. As a matter of fact, if I knew that someone in my class had that intent, I would refuse to certify them. It's my name on the training certificate, and I could not ethically or morally certify that person for CCW.

 

[230therapy]

No permit is required to commit murder.

 

[9mm+]

No permit is required to commit murder.

Yes, but you're missing my point. I can't control what anyone decides to do in their own time, but I can control whether I facilitate the commission of a crime via issuing a CCW to that person. If the person gets a CCW from someone else, then so be it, but it's not going to happen on my watch.

 

[M2 Carbine]

It's OK to talk about the "right" thing to do when you or your loved ones aren't the target.
On the other hand there are times that you better do something other than just reporting the incident to law enforcement, if you want to keep yourself or your loved ones safe.

Long story but the short version is,
a man threatened to kill my Wife.
I had my Wife talk to the Sheriff. Which of course did nothing as the Sheriff's hands are tied until something happens. But I wanted the threat on record for when I found the guy. Because it violates the criminal's rights, the Sheriff couldn't even tell me what kind of car the guy drove.
I went after the guy.
Before I could find him, he killed someone else. Then the Sheriff could do something but it didn't do the victim's Widow and kids any good.

 

[230therapy]

Yes, but you're missing my point. I can't control what anyone decides to do in their own time, but I can control whether I facilitate the commission of a crime via issuing a CCW to that person. If the person gets a CCW from someone else, then so be it, but it's not going to happen on my watch.

You're not facilitating anything by signing off on the class for a CCW. We both know it's entirely their responsibility to follow the law.

You will have explained the law to the students and the conditions that qualify for use of deadly force in self-defense.

If they're going to murder someone, it's not because of anything you did or did not do in your class.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

9mm Amen to that. Dont need our name on the scene for sure.

The town that the situation happened in is about 15 miles away, the bangers lived in a small apt complex on the back edge of town.

There was nothing in the papers, nothing on the news, just that the local gange presence went away.

There were no bodies found floating in a pond or other such stuff.

I have no resources to point you to. The whole thing is that those hoodlums never reapeared on the scene.

In some cases, as was mentioned, the Local LE has their hands tied and can't do anything about the issue. When a problem goes away, what is that old saying, "let sleeping dogs lie" my bet is that nothing bad or incriminating was found, the problem was gone, so why go looking for trouble.

Far better things for the local LE to do than worry about a handful of Gang Bangers.

I have spoken on a couple ocassions to the Chief there and he just shrugs and gives me the "dont know, not worried about it" answer.

Nobody there is going to go digging either me thinks.

Snowy

 

[9mm+]

I empathize, MC, and am very sorry to hear of the outcome of your situation. My family has received death threats from a former employee of mine who is now in prison for fraud. We will be on high alert when he gets released.

 

[230therapy]

My sainted mother in law (a preacher's wife, former missionary, first woman mayor of her small town etc) has a saying she's taught to her kids, her grandkids, and is now teaching to a new generation of great-grandkids. It's appropriate for a lot of the situations we examine here, I think.

What she says is, "It isn't enough 'not to want to.' We have to want not to."

The difference may sound subtle- but it isn't.

That's a great saying. I will pass it along.

 

[Snowy Rivers]

I agree with 9mm

A student comes into my class bragging about going down to The south side and hosing some gang bangers, I am not going to take his $$$ or allow him in the class for the same reason as 9mm

I am supposed to set an example and a high standard, listening to the braggings of some hot shot then signing off on his carry ticket certification.

Most people that come into class are not bragging about anything, but simply trying to fulfill the state requirements to get their CCW.

The case in point was that an individual asked about what could be done.

In his case, the Gang officer is working with him and his neighbors and a sting will likely happen.

As a training instructor, we can certainly refuse to issue a cert if a good reason exists.

Heck I won't lie, I am in the business to try an make a living, but I have limits of morality that I will not cross, and thats one of them.

Last thing I say to my students. "Go forth and be safe and dont make your instructor look bad"

9mm keep the faith

Snowy

 

[9mm+]

That's just stupid.

You're not facilitating anything by signing off on the class for a CCW. We both know it's entirely their responsibility to follow the law.

You will have explained the law to the students and the conditions that qualify for use of deadly force in self-defense.

If they're going to murder someone, it's not because of anything you did or did not do in your class.

I completely and utterly disagree with your logic, and we can agree to amicably disagree on this. Calling my reasoning "stupid" was beyond the pale. Of course I explain the law to students and test them on that, but if I know in ADVANCE that a student's
STATED intent is to PRE-EMPTIVELY shoot someone and that a CCW would facilitate that act, then there is no way I would certify that student, plain and simple.

If you want to have a rational discussion about this, then fine, but please refrain from insulting language. I did extend that courtesy to you.

 

[9mm+]

Thanks, Snowy, much appreciated!

 

[Sam1911]

I went after the guy.

I cringe to ask... and what would you have done if you'd found him? Gone to prison for his murder? Or assault? Or given him a stern talking to? Bought him lunch and asked him not to be so mean?

 

[Pyro]

We talked about a guy who waited in his house with a loaded 12 gauge for the gang bangers to break into it (again). Ended up shooting one of them.
Can the "Castle Doctrine" be used here?

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by M2 Carbine: On the other hand there are times that you better do something other than just reporting the incident to law enforcement, if you want to keep yourself or your loved ones safe.

Yes indeed. Some suggestions:

• Remain armed,
• stay alert, very alert,
• take steps to improveyour home security, and
• avoid doing anything stupid that would result in your incarceration or in the loss of the tools you need to protect yourself and your family.

Long story but the short version is, a man threatened to kill my Wife.....I went after the guy.

With the intention of doing what?

Before I could find him, he killed someone else.

That's tragic. It wasn't your job to find him (you were not sworn to do so, nor were you indemnified or working within the constructs of legitimate law enforcement), and most importantly, you stayed alive, unhurt, and out of prison.

Some time ago, THR member Cosmoline put the concept in simple terms: shoot for defense, not for justice.

 

[Sam1911]

Of course I explain the law to students and test them on that, but if I know in ADVANCE that a student's
STATED intent is to PRE-EMPTIVELY shoot someone and that a CCW would facilitate that act, then there is no way I would certify that student.

9mm+, that is commendable! And you've missed an important part of your "defense" of that practice:

Nothing you could do to make the point will carry more weight (with that student, and with others observing) than to say, "No, that's illegal, and not only is it illegal, but if that is your purpose than you are not permitted to take my class."

You don't have much control over what others do, but you do not have to give tacit approval by going ahead with that person's permit. Nothing speaks quite so loud as REFUSING to take someone's money!

 

[9mm+]

We talked about a guy who waited in his house with a loaded 12 gauge for the gang bangers to break into it (again). Ended up shooting one of them.
Can the "Castle Doctrine" be used here?

That depends on the state. In North Carolina, if an intruder is breaking into your home and you have reasonable belief that the person is trying to enter your home to commit a felony and/or inflict serious injury or death on you or the inhabitants of the home, you may use deadly force as necessary to prevent the entry. Other states have different Castle Doctrine laws, so it's imperative to know the laws in your state regarding what you can and cannot do regarding intruders.

 

[9mm+]

Thanks, Sam! Very much appreciated!