LiveLife
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Nice 45ACP group ... But OP is shooting a puny 9mm.
OK, here are my 9mm ... ummm PCC groups.
Improving Pistol cartridge accuracy
- Thread starter J-rod O
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OK, here are my 9mm ... ummm PCC groups.
Riomouse911
Member
I love Unique because it works in all sorts of loads... but it will vary .1 to .2 gr regularly from my Lee powder measure once I settle on a charge weight.
I’ll guess the big flakes just don’t drop into the measuring chamber as consistently as smaller flakes/ ball powders do.
For my intended uses this bit of variance doesn’t make much of a difference. I hit pretty darn close to where I’m aiming at with these practice/plinking rounds. Now, if I plan to shoot a serious match then I’ll swap to Bullseye or HP-38 and weigh charges more frequently through the loading process.
Stay safe.
You should try some BE-86
fxvr5
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Consistent velocity has been brought up as important for accuracy.
Testing has shown that consistent velocity does not appear to be a factor in accuracy when testing a typical handgun at typical handgun shooting distance (25 yards).
https://americanhandgunner.com/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/
Testing has shown that consistent velocity does not appear to be a factor in accuracy when testing a typical handgun at typical handgun shooting distance (25 yards).
https://americanhandgunner.com/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/
AJC1
Member
What's the be-86 load for 7.7 arisaka, 6.5 swedish mouser, or 308?
Nice 45ACP group ... But OP is shooting a puny 9mm.
OK, here are my 9mm ... ummm PCC groups.
Very good groups with a 9mm carbine, the target I posted, not mine. Just an example of what a good pistol shooter can do.
lordpaxman
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This is what I’ve found in my testing as well. The lowest SD doesn’t guarantee the tightest group. It may, but often doesn’t. I had a 404 from the link above, and think this might be the same article:
https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/
AJC1
Member
I fully understand Standard Deviation and its application in Rifle. I dont see SD in pistol as anything other than an indication of ammunition process quality. The results on target always matter most but at 1k yards those two thing are the same. What effect is seen on target while pistol shooting at 25 or 50 yards.....
After reading the article in the link again, they also found no significant reason to chase SD in pistol. I suspect with normal range charges not misfires from using the wrong primer in bad conditions with H110 the loader may be chasing their tail.
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Unique is an outstanding pistol powder in a number of pistol cartridges. For pistols, the idea that charge uniformity means something on target is based on biases and assumptions not facts. I chronographed velocities of AA#5, a ball powder, and Unique, in 45ACP, maybe more, and this is what I had:
Code:
Kimber Custom Classic M1911
230 LRN Valiant 5.5 grs Unique lot UN331 1989 Mixed brass WLP (brass)
OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"
16-May-09 high 83 °F
Ave Vel = 827.4
Std Dev = 17.63
ES = 85.68
High = 871.6
Low = 785.9
Number shots = 31
230 LRN Valiant 6.0 grs Unique lot 6/21/1998 Mixed brass WLP (nickle)
16-May-09 high 83 °F OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"
Ave Vel = 885
Std Dev = 16.79
ES = 67.26
High = 917.8
Low = 850.5
N = 30
accurate lots recoil15' foot ejection
230 LRN 6.5 grs Unique lot UN387 6/21/93 Mixed brass WLP
OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469 "
18-Mar-07 T = 62 °F
Ave Vel = 926.4
Std Dev = 16.64
ES 71.16
High 963.4
Low 892.3
N = 32
light leading accurate centered hard recoil20 foot ejection
230 FMJ (R-P) 7.8 grs AA#5 lot DM Speer Once fired WLP (brass) OAL 1.250" taper crimped 0.469"
12-Dec-11 T =53 °F
Ave Vel = 847.1
Std Dev = 19.59
ES = 86.17
High = 877.2
Low = 791.1
N = 14
Accurate but high.
230 gr FMJ (R-P) 5.0 grs Bullseye 99' & 2005 mixed lot Mixed Brass WLP (brass) OAL 1.265" taper crimp .469"
12-Dec-11 T= 53 °F
Ave Vel = 793.5
Std Dev = 18.92
ES = 61.99
High = 817.4
Low = 755.4
N = 16
AA#5, a ball powder, did not have tighter extreme velocity spreads, even though, without a doubt, it threw better in the Dillion 550B powder horn. I do think Unique works best in middle to slightly hot loads, but claims that powders that meter better must therefore be more accurate, have to be due to human biases not evidence. Such claims are unsubstantiated unless a statistically significant number of test rounds are fired. Which of course, no one does. Everyone just assumes that precision metering means something.
Bullseye powder has been a stable for years in Bullseye pistol, and for a long time, so was Unique. At least for hardball loads. However, when competitors attempt to create loads that just function the pistol, the faster burning powders are the powders of choice. Primarily for function reasons. Alibi's will ruin your score.[
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lordpaxman
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That would be the 64K$?. Sure wish I knew or had a handle on it. If there were some data that suggested bullet runout after seating contributed the most to precise groups then I’d spend the $$$ on a competition seating die. Precision may be due to a number of factors, not just one, and I always say that gun is way better than moi. For my competition reloading, since I use range brass and am not going to inspect and measure every case, I just try to insure a consistent ammunition that will punch 2-3” groups at 25 yards from a rest.
fxvr5
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Thanks for the current/correct link.
fxvr5
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Bullet runout doesn't seem important in the typical handgun at typical handgun distance either.
https://americanhandgunner.com/gear/exclusive-crooked-seated-bullets-and-accuracy/
25-20 WCF
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AJC1
Member
My response was based on how many cartridges unique has a book load for. It's not even close to anything else around. It good in pistol rifle, and shotgun. Comparing be-86 is not even the same game. The only other powder with almost as much diversity is 2400.
AJC1
Member
Where I believe all guns are the same is quality of build and loads.
1. Barrel 2. Bullet 3. Case prep 4. Powder.
You have those things dialed in and it's all over.
Man! I appreciate all of the input! I know that shooting off hand isn’t the best for consistency and accuracy but as some have suggested I’m not looking for sub moa accuracy at 100 yards with my pistol. I just noticed a difference in what I am putting together and the factory rounds I shoot. I will definitely shoot from a rest and post some pictures that way I can start narrowing it down, if there is a problem. I doo feel like I’m having problems getting consistent charges with the unique from my rcbs powder measure though. Once again thanks for the help, I’ll be a while sorting through all of the new info!
SD is kinda worth caring about if you're shooting pistol games with power factor (velocity * mass) requirements and chronograph checks on velocity. The smaller your SD, the closer you can run to the power factor and have confidence you'll clear the bar.
Sorry 124gr RMR fmj’s
In the for what it's worth category, I consider each barrel resonates differently. When starting with a new bullet/powder, I will ladder the powder steps to narrow in to what the barrel seems to like. Then I'll refine that with smaller steps.
A combination that works well in my CZ75B may not be the one that works best in my LC9s or LCP. Different barrels.
As I said, FWIW.
P.S. I tend toward TiteGroup instead of Unique.
A combination that works well in my CZ75B may not be the one that works best in my LC9s or LCP. Different barrels.
As I said, FWIW.
P.S. I tend toward TiteGroup instead of Unique.
I agree, but I will also say, dance on the edge, and the more likely you will fall into the chasm. This is so true for 2700 Bullseye shooters, and myself. Loads that functioned perfectly in 80 to 90 F weather, failed to function the slide in 40 to 50 weather. I see it all the time with other shooters, so I am not alone in this club. If you don't allow margin into your minimum loads, you will fail at some time in the future.
jmorris
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That is the largest factor, the human one. Environmental is another big one. If I am looking to get the most out of something, I find they are best with the least amount of input from me.
If I am not involved, all I have to do is line up the targets with the bullet path and the rest is done for me.
For that all that is needed is a way to positively zero the firearm from one shot to the subsequent ones.
Smaller groups are generally the result.
LiveLife
Member
Whenever I see that one shot zero, it puts a smile on my face.
Absolutely, but the wider the deviation within your loads, the bigger margin you have to leave.
The issue with unique isn't the metering nor the case capacity. Unique is extremely sensitive to case neck tension, variations in oal, etc. These thing affect the short start pressure of the load causing unique to have a push of the bullet 1 shot and a slapping of the bullet the next.
How a bullet is launched is important with semi-auto's and where consistency really shines. Consistency ='s accuracy.
10-shot 50yd group testing a hb bullet in a mn 1911 chambered in 9mm.
The black is 1.6" in diameter
How a bullet is launched is important with semi-auto's and where consistency really shines. Consistency ='s accuracy.
10-shot 50yd group testing a hb bullet in a mn 1911 chambered in 9mm.
The black is 1.6" in diameter
Pete D.
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or....groups like this: indoors at 50 ft. (about 17 yards) one hand unsupported. Load was similar to the quoted load.
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