In A Medical Office Waiting Room...

[hso]

Find another doctor since the individual is obviously a drug-seeking patient there for pain meds and you don't need to have any involvement with a drug pushing MD.

 

[citizenconn]

Find another doctor since the individual is obviously a drug-seeking patient there for pain meds and you don't need to have any involvement with a drug pushing MD.

Aren't you getting a little off topic for this forum? And being judgmental to boot.

 

[hso]

getting a little off topic for this forum?

Recognizing that you're in an unsafe setting is an important part of decision making about your safety. My wife and son have dealt with drug seeking patients and the described behavior is a big red flag that this is an unsafe office because of it. My state has a huge problem with over prescription and downright criminal prescribing of pain meds (sending med professionals to jail for it has been a frequent news item). The addicted to prescription pain medication problem provides unfortunate lessons learned that may not be recognized by others that don't see it as often.

 

[The Night Rider]

Lessons we learned:

1) Even if a gun shouldn't come, my knife and pepper spray often can.

Yes. I am never without OC unless I am actually going to be searched.

2) Afterward, wife says to me "I should carry my gun more. Especially when you can't carry yours." Yep.

IMO program compliance is the weak point in most people's self defense strategy.

You (not you specifically) need to come to a decision that you are going to carry unless you are legally prohibited from doing so.

I wasn't there but I make a point of not calling the cops unless I am directly involved and I have no other options.

 

[The Night Rider]

Find another doctor since the individual is obviously a drug-seeking patient there for pain meds and you don't need to have any involvement with a drug pushing MD.

The patient was obviously a drug seeker but you can't automatically jump from that to the doctor is a drug pusher.

I worked for a physiatrist many many years ago who specialized in pain management.

It was a constant Balancing Act to alleviate the patient's pain as much as possible without turning them into drug addicts.

Most of our patients were prescribed enough medication to get them to their next appointment with maybe one or two pills left over. A lot of them were also given a separate prescription of medications for breakthrough pain.

I had a couple that for instance the doctor had given them 62 pills and their next appointment was in 60 days. And they would call me 55 or 54 or 53 days out and tell me that they were out of pills. By definition they were taking more than the recommended dose but they would tell me that they weren't.

The office manager would make me field the calls. I'm still not even sure what the goal was because I couldn't hang up on him and I couldn't flat out tell them you're taking too much medication and you're not getting anymore until your next appointment. But I basically had to talk them into dealing with dealing with it next appointment

Having said all that, in most HMOs somebody is reviewing all the doctor's notes and if they notice that the doctor is prescribing an inordinate amount of pain medications there will be a follow-up

 

[Gordon]

In a restricted environment I always take my red oak plain animal stockyard cane which I refinished nicely . I don't need it anymore with my two new knees , but because of RA all over me I'm still considered disabled and have the card and plackard . I took two years of cane intensive Hapkido from a Korean Grand master in 2016-2018 before I retired and before my operations, I fought thru the pain until 2022 when I got the knees and the 6months HD rehab . Now when I go to airports and any place my CCW is no good I have the cane. If the person is unarmed , no problem. If the person has a knife or blunt force I can stand my ground while retreating. If the person has a gun then I might just charge in if he is close and disarm them

 

[Scrapiron45]

The majority of medical professionals in an office are not trained to handle violent encounters such as the one offered.
They are trained to protect themselves by locking doors and closing sign in windows and calling security or police. As long as you remain in the waiting room he is a potential problem for you.

 

[WestKentucky]

The medical folks typically frown upon firearms, but a handy dandy pocket knife generally trips no triggers. When I was a safety professional in the factories I had to go to the ER regularly. Between minor injuries where people wanted a day off from work, legit injuries from not following protocols, and drug tests for forklift wrecks it worked out to be about 3 trips a week, mostly at night. In all the different cities I worked, I could have packed a ma-deuce around once they got to know me but I typically had a 4” or larger assisted swinger in my right front pocket and a lot of times I had a fixed blade handy but out of sight (untucked shirt or under a jacket). One night I had an ER doc that I knew well lock me, my employee, and a couple other folks in an X-ray room and she borrowed the pocket machete until security corralled a guy doing something a lot like what OP described. As soon as the door clicked she was on the intercom calling a color code, and the electronic door holders closed the doors and locked them. It got plenty secure in about 15 seconds. I would not have wanted to be in lockdown in the same room as a dope fiend with a craving. They will literally do anything it takes just to get a fix.

 

[MikeInOr]

Are you suggesting that you would have involved yourself in the situation descibed in the OP?

I am saying that I pretty much carry where ever I go and a small pocket pistol can be carried a lot of places that a larger carry gun can't be carried.

I wasn't at the doctors office with the OP so I don't know how I would have reacted. I would have been prepared to protect myself and my family. If the druggie had started getting violent and physically assaulting the nurse it might have provoked action from me. Yelling and being a jerk isn't enough to provoke me to pull out a weapon because when I do pull out a weapon my intent is to use it, not just flash it.

 

[Gordon]

The medical folks typically frown upon firearms, but a handy dandy pocket knife generally trips no triggers. When I was a safety professional in the factories I had to go to the ER regularly. Between minor injuries where people wanted a day off from work, legit injuries from not following protocols, and drug tests for forklift wrecks it worked out to be about 3 trips a week, mostly at night. In all the different cities I worked, I could have packed a ma-deuce around once they got to know me but I typically had a 4” or larger assisted swinger in my right front pocket and a lot of times I had a fixed blade handy but out of sight (untucked shirt or under a jacket). One night I had an ER doc that I knew well lock me, my employee, and a couple other folks in an X-ray room and she borrowed the pocket machete until security corralled a guy doing something a lot like what OP described. As soon as the door clicked she was on the intercom calling a color code, and the electronic door holders closed the doors and locked them. It got plenty secure in about 15 seconds. I would not have wanted to be in lockdown in the same room as a dope fiend with a craving. They will literally do anything it takes just to get a fix.

Yeah addicts are insane IMHO and believe me they try to use their "dependency" as an excuse for any damage they do when they go to court, and the court believes it ! And the beat goes on

 

[old lady new shooter]

I am in a Dr waiting room as I type this, not my appointment, and I am well enough armed. I won't go unarmed.

Happily my current doctor’s office is not posted.

 

[Old Dog]

As it happens, one of my occupational hazards in my last career was having to spend time in urban ERs late at night/early in the morning. Lots of violence walks into ERs on a regular basis.

Medical buildings and doctors' offices are also common sites of workplace violence, and a lot of deranged ex-boyfriends, ex-husbands, ex-patients and ex-employees with bad intent seem to get in these places too frequently.

I hadn't realized at my last appointment with my primary care physician that I was gonna have to take my shirt off for an EKG. The medical assistant and nurse didn't bat an eye at what was strapped on to my belt...

 

[luzyfuerza]

I can take off my pants and the P32 remains in my pocket, in its holster and is never seen. It is small and light enough that I have never had an issue with it wanting to fall out of its pocket / holster

This is true.

But if I have to leave those pants (and gun!!) unattended while, say, I'm in the next room getting an MRI done then that's unacceptable to me.

One of the reasons I shared this experience was to elicit discussion about ways to adapt the "I carry the full EDC everywhere every day" mindset to situations when a full EDC kit simply cannot come along.

 

[Old Dog]

But if I have to leave those pants (and gun!!) unattended while, say, I'm in the next room getting an MRI done then that's unacceptable to me.

At the risk of thread drift, I will note that all of the medical imaging centers I've been through in the past few years (and as beat up old guy, I'm an MRI, CT, ultrasound and X-Ray veteran) have provided lockers for my clothing and personal effects, i.e., wallet, cell phone, keys... firearm.

 

[luzyfuerza]

I've just never thought that those cabinets with minimal locks are suitable for storing a gun.

Cell phones, wallet, and car keys for sure. Pocket knife and pepper spray, too.

Perhaps if staff and other patients don't know a gun is in there, then maybe the minimal lock might be enough.

Have to rethink that assessment.

 

[Beck]

Your alternative may well be to precipitate mayhem that would not have occurred but for your butting in. The man's priority was obviously to obtain a type of drug. His comments were intended to make that happen. it would not be prudent to make any assumptions about what he might do. The medical professionals are trained to handle such things. You are not.

Wrong. I was a police officer and an ambulance rated EMT for several years in a college police department. This is the very type of thing I handled many times on the college campus. People melting down from various types of stress and distress, including withdrawal from prescriptions or illegal substances. I was known for being very effective at deescalating and talking people down.

However, in this thread I simply stated I would not leave someone behind to save myself in any situation. I did not go into detail beyond expressing a moral/ethical position.

But to imagine further based upon the OP, I would wait and see... not run away. From what I gathered they were dealing with a behavioral emergency based on the subject experiencing withdrawal.

I wasn't there of course, but based on the information I read, it was the so-called medical professionals, a receptionist, possibly not even a clinician that was precipitating mayhem. Withdrawal is a hellish experience. Depending on what the man was withdrawing from it can be fatal. When he said, "somebody is going to die here" it's likely he was talking about himself dying because that's the way steep withdrawal feels.

So they finally call 911 after he leaves and it takes 10 minutes for the police to arrive? The police are least qualified of all to deal with a behavioral emergency involving withdrawal, unless they're exceptionally well trained and take him to the emergency dept.

I've seem so much incompetence in our healthcare system over the last 3+ years I want to retch when I hear stories like this!

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

But what lessons can you pull out of this event that apply to you in your daily life?

Well, first of all I can't carry a firearm into medical facilities in SC. That's the law here.

In my birth state, Indiana, my SC permit is valid but their law says I'm also bound by the laws of my issue state... so I can't carry in medical facilities there either.

I travel through several states routinely, so I have to be aware of these matters. But Utah isn't one of those states I've had occasion to travel.

However, medical facilities aren't really at issue here, because this scenario applies to virtually every place one is not allowed to carry.

There is more to self defense than having a gun. In fact, the use of deadly force REGARDLESS of the means is "as a last resort or when lesser means cannot reasonably be employed".

And there's a whole range of means and options available in any given scenario. And that always starts long before any encounter.

You ask good questions. I would ask in return "Without considering having to carry a defensive weapon on your person, how could you have made defensive preparations in this scenario?"

Take your time. Be creative. And understand that you are an intelligent, rational creature capable of thinking both creatively and outside the box.

Defense is all about options and preparations.

 

[GHinNH]

This is a gun forum so it's not surprising that we have a lot of responses about guns. Let me ask the members who think a gun is the solution to this problem this question: Under what circumstances do you intend to use the gun? Are you thinking of protecting the receptionist? Are you intending to use it effect your escape? Mas Ayoob titled his book "In the Gravest Extreme" for a reason. You get a certain feeling of security from being armed but I can say that I only recall one time that I was ever in an off duty situation where I was glad that I was armed. Nothing happened but the vibe in the place we stopped for gas near Texarkana wasn't good at all, we fueled our two vehicles, used the rest rooms and got back on the road as quickly as possible. Maybe this guy gave off that vibe. I wasn't there. I still think that the best thing to do if you feel you are in immanent danger is to leave.

I wrangle mentally with that question daily.

So much of (that) decision would be determined by an infinitely variable unknown.

I will say I have never thought of using it as a "testicular enhancement" to assert myself into a bad situation, I can be arrogant but that's above even my pay grade, and do not fancy myself as some self appointed wannabe Sheriff.

What I do know is that I try to maintain situational awareness and two possible scenarios. (1) Duck/cover/escape, and (2) duck, cover and what to do if option (1) is impossible, which brings me right back to my second sentence... something of a conundrum ain't it?

 

[luzyfuerza]

I don't want casual readers to blow right by this suggestion without considering the specific tools @borrowedtime69 recommended.

When I go somewhere where weapons are usually not allowed (but not where I could get arrested) even with a metal detector, I carry the Zytel Delta dart from cold steel, or lansky boot knife deep concealed.

@borrowedtime69 , how do you carry and conceal the Delta Dart?

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[The Night Rider]

The only place that I go to that I am legally prohibited from carrying a firearm is the VA.

The only place that I go to regularly that's posted is my local Walmart and they're not even really posted. They have a sign out front that says "Please kindly refrain from open display of a firearm." I honor that.

I think I may have said it my other post but even in the VA I always have OC on me.

What I'm about to say is going to be an unpopular opinion here but I wouldn't have called the cops. I wouldn't even have considered calling the cops.

Putting myself in the OP's position I was not involved in that altercation. That was between the patient (who we assume is drug seeking but we don't really know) and the front desk staff.

I would not have interjected myself into that on any level. One of the first lessons that I learned working as a security guard was that you did not call the police unless you have an actual crime to report.

I would have let it play out like it did. The staff called the police. The staff gets to fill out the report if any, the staff gets to go to court, assuming there's a court date. It didn't involve me. I don't know anything about it.

 

[scaatylobo]

My wife and I were recently in a waiting room before being called back for a medical exam. I was the patient. I generally carry whenever I'm out in public. But for this exam, I left the tools (gun, pepper spray, knife, etc.) outside.

My wife is a trained shooter, and has good EDC kit, but chose not to carry that day. Frankly, she depends on my tools more than I would like.

An individual walks into the waiting room. Probably 35 YO male. T-shirt, knee-length, unhemmed, cutoff jeans. His dress, gait, movements are just off, somehow. I feel my mind shift to orange, and focus on him.

He approaches the receptionists, and loudly asks when he can have his next shot. He says he's in pain. Funny, but he doesn't move like he's in pain. They are apparently familiar with him; "I'm sorry, you've got to wait at least another week." His response ramps up in sound level. He paces back and forth. Waves his arms. Demands. Shouts. Leans over the counter. Finally threatens: "somebody is going to die here!". But he didn't produce any weapons that I could see.

I'm in red, but damn! I wish I had my tools with me!

From my seat, I can see the whole waiting room, but we can't get out without passing too close to the loud intruder.

Those were tough moments. Can't really fight effectively, and can't escape. I felt pretty helpless. Something that I don't enjoy, and don't feel very often.

He finally steps outside. Staff calls 911. I stand and watch him wander around in the parking lot until I'm called back for my exam. Wife says that police were there in about ten minutes.

Lots of lessons here for my wife and me.


But what lessons can you pull out of this event that apply to you in your daily life?

I carry in the Dr's office and any & all places that do not have a magnetometer.

I even go so far as to carry a 'cute' looking bible carry book [ yea,its a gun case ].

ALL my Dr's know I am armed,not one has ever made any comment to make me feel I was in the wrong.

Guess I am just lucky ?.

 

[Kleanbore]

When I read the OP, I did not think in tems of a defnsive incident. I thought in terms of a medical emergency. Someone needed to attend to the man. Not a lay person with a weapon, but someone who knew what they were doing

All of the medical offices I go to except one are inlarge trauma center hospital complexes. They can attend to medical emergencies of all kind. Heart failure, strokes, injuries including gunshots. overdoses, drug interactions patients resisting treatment violently..... The staffs are trained and equipped for what may come up. There are defibrillators, oxygen units, radios, portable EKG units, revolvers, less-lethal devices, handcuffs and various other restraints....

I have witnessed enough incidents to realize that my best contribution is to be out of the way.

Now, my primary care physician share a small office. Should something arise, I have neiither the training nor the capability to do much, and d would not think "gun" if I had one.

 

[drobs]

Hospitals here in SW Missouri are kind of funny. The Branson Hospital is posted no firearms on every exterior door. The Emergency Room has Police Officers managing the waiting room. Towards the end of Covid, the Branson Hospital was still making everyone wear masks.

The West Plains Hospital has no signs at all and no Police Officers in the EM waiting room. This hospital discarded the mask policy really fast.

No Guns Allowed signs don't hold the force of the law in Missouri and I carry at both hospitals. However, I'm a little more discrete when going to the Branson hospital. I'm healthy and haven't personally needed medical care at either. I do frequently drive my "wife," friends, and neighbors to their appointments.

 

[The Night Rider]

My wife recently had cataract surgery. Prior to her surgery she wasn't able to drive. So I drove her to all her appointments (which she hated because she hates the way I drive).

I said all that to say that when I was escorting her I carried.

I already said I don't carry at the VA. I've also made a decision not to carry in my dentist office.

If you're going to be in that close proximity to me with your hands on me you are eventually going to find out that I'm armed.

As far as I'm concerned that's not information about me that my dentist (or anyone else outside of my circle) needs to have.

One of the reasons I chose this holster in particular is because it's a paddle holster and I can remove it from my belt before I walk in to the Dentist's office.

I drive in my appointment. I lock the gun in a lock box in my car. I go, conduct my business and leave.

Since my mouth is generally full of the Dentist's fingers while I'm in the dentist's office I don't have to worry about making small talk.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

The holster is a Safariland model 578 GLS if anyone's interested

 

[luzyfuerza]

Let me ask the members who think a gun is the solution to this problem this question: Under what circumstances do you intend to use the gun?

This is a very important question. I'll describe what went through my mind at the time.

To clarify the geography, wife and I were at the closed end of a box canyon, with loud guy standing in the entrance. He was about ten yards away. We would have had to pass close by him to reach an exit.

As loud guy got madder and louder, my mind shifted to condition red. In red, we 1) look for behavioral triggers, and 2) decide how to respond to those triggers. In two seconds, I thought:

There is no cover or concealment.

Watch his hands.

If he produces a contact weapon and threatens with it, draw to low ready. If he moves toward us shout "STOP!". If he doesn't stop, fire. If he produces a firearm and threatens with it, draw and fire immediately. What's the backstop like?

Damn!, no gun!

Borrow wife's gun.

Damn!, no gun!

Fortunately for everyone, he produced no weapon.

The triggers and plans emerged quickly...a result of lots of training and practice.

But I hated the feeling of "Damn! No Gun!"

Thanks for your suggestions to help keep that from happening in the future!