In A Medical Office Waiting Room...

luzyfuerza said:
I don't want casual readers to blow right by this suggestion without considering the specific tools @borrowedtime69 recommended.

@borrowedtime69 , how do you carry and conceal the Delta Dart?

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I carry them strapped to my calf, sometimes hanging on my neck if I'm wearing thick clothes.

My plan, in a perfect world, would be to put the Delta dart or Lansky zytel boot knife inside the hollow above the left clavicle, taking out the aorta..... but I'm far from being a ninja.
 
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The Night Rider said:
My wife recently had cataract surgery. Prior to her surgery she wasn't able to drive. So I drove her to all her appointments (which she hated because she hates the way I drive).

I said all that to say that when I was escorting her I carried.

I already said I don't carry at the VA. I've also made a decision not to carry in my dentist office.

If you're going to be in that close proximity to me with your hands on me you are eventually going to find out that I'm armed.

As far as I'm concerned that's not information about me that my dentist (or anyone else outside of my circle) needs to have.

View attachment 1174616
One of the reasons I chose this holster in particular is because it's a paddle holster and I can remove it from my belt before I walk in to the Dentist's office.

I drive in my appointment. I lock the gun in a lock box in my car. I go, conduct my business and leave.

Since my mouth is generally full of the Dentist's fingers while I'm in the dentist's office I don't have to worry about making small talk.

- YouTube

Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.
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The holster is a Safariland model 578 GLS if anyone's interested
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Probably not a good idea to carry at the VA. You might consider a smaller gun that you can wear IWB at the dentist's office.
 
Jeff White said:
This is a gun forum so it's not surprising that we have a lot of responses about guns. Let me ask the members who think a gun is the solution to this problem this question: Under what circumstances do you intend to use the gun? Are you thinking of protecting the receptionist? Are you intending to use it effect your escape? Mas Ayoob titled his book "In the Gravest Extreme" for a reason. You get a certain feeling of security from being armed but I can say that I only recall one time that I was ever in an off duty situation where I was glad that I was armed. Nothing happened but the vibe in the place we stopped for gas near Texarkana wasn't good at all, we fueled our two vehicles, used the rest rooms and got back on the road as quickly as possible. Maybe this guy gave off that vibe. I wasn't there. I still think that the best thing to do if you feel you are in immanent danger is to leave.
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Personally, I'm not actually worried about an attack at the doctor's office. But it's a half-hour drive from my house, and I would NOT want to be unarmed if sitting on the side of the freeway due to a car problem. The same is true for many other places, it's the way there and back for which I'm really armed. Last night I went to a meeting that had armed security at the door. Fine, but what about driving there and back, especially at night? Also, the door does not face into the parking lot, in theory that's another good place to be armed.
 
Armored farmer said:
I always have a knife unless I have to pass through a metal detector.
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Forgive my lack of knowledge, but recently I notice in advertisements that many knives (at least kitchen ones, don't know if this extends to SD ones) no longer have steel blades, but rather ceramic. Presumably such wouldn't set off a metal detector? But would they work for SD?
 
old lady new shooter said:
Forgive my lack of knowledge, but recently I notice in advertisements that many knives (at least kitchen ones, don't know if this extends to SD ones) no longer have steel blades, but rather ceramic. Presumably such wouldn't set off a metal detector? But would they work for SD?
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Ceramic knives are extremely brittle. I wouldn't want to use any of them I've handled (I have a couple ceramic kitchen knives) as a defensive weapon unless nothing else was available. I think they would quickly break leaving you unarmed.
 
Jeff White said:
Ceramic knives are extremely brittle. I wouldn't want to use any of them I've handled (I have a couple ceramic kitchen knives) as a defensive weapon unless nothing else was available. I think they would quickly break leaving you unarmed.
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It wouldn't be my first choice, but I'd bet a person would take knee if a chunk broke off inside.
 
old lady new shooter said:
Forgive my lack of knowledge, but recently I notice in advertisements that many knives (at least kitchen ones, don't know if this extends to SD ones) no longer have steel blades, but rather ceramic. Presumably such wouldn't set off a metal detector? But would they work for SD?
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The polycarbonate ones won’t set off a metal detector and they are much more durable than ceramic. They aren’t good slashing weapons but would be useful for stabbing.

1696898259749.jpeg

Some of them are cheap enough you could carry one and ditch it should you have to pass thru a microwave scanner.
 
IMAG3555.jpg

Other than I get a lot of compliments about this hiking staff (my wife gave it to me for Christmas last year) nobody seems to pay much attention when I'm carrying it in one of those places that has "No Weapons" signs on the doors. And that includes when I go with my wife for her monthly INR check at the medical clinic in town.
However, I walk with a limp anyway, so that might have something to do with nobody paying much attention to my big honkin' staff even when I carry it into places like the county courthouse where the "No Weapons" signs on the doors actually carry the weight of law.
BTW, when I go to the medical clinic with my wife, I'm usually carrying (concealed) anyway because the "No Weapons" signs on the doors of the clinic don't carry the weight of law here in Idaho. Next month when I go to the clinic for my annual wellness exam though, I'll lock my gun in the truck before I go in. I'll still be carrying my staff though, and I'll probably get a compliment or two about it. :D
 
old lady new shooter said:
Forgive my lack of knowledge, but recently I notice in advertisements that many knives (at least kitchen ones, don't know if this extends to SD ones) no longer have steel blades, but rather ceramic. Presumably such wouldn't set off a metal detector? But would they work for SD?
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They absolutely do not set off metal detectors. Which is why I almost always carry a ceramic pocket knife these days.

However, they are brittle and absolutely cannot be used to pry. They will snap very easily and the cutting edge will chip.

They have an edge that's freakishly sharp and it's exceptional at keeping that keen edge for straight cutting motions.

Within those limitations, they will work for self defense. They are not ideal due to their brittle nature, but when the choice is nothing because you can't carry a steel blade or something because it can't be detected with metal detectors, you make compromises.
 
This knife stuff may interest those who believe that they can employ bladed weapons, saferly, effectively, and with out excessive legal risk, in desperate self defense situations. I am not one of them.

A blade that is suited for stabbing rather than slashing would be my last choice.

Nor would I want to use a weapon of any kind in intervening in the kind of medical emergency described in the OP.

There is a possibility that someone in the waitng room could be endangered, but considering the situation, it would be a whole lot safer and wiser to beat feet while that can be done.
 
What ever happened to people just having loud arguments? I worked in retail when I was a kid. In 7 years, I don't think I went a day without some loudmouth flipping out and calling me everything but a white man.

This guy is being loud. He has a beef with the doctor's office. If he had a gun, he probably would have sold it for drugs. If he wanted to stab or punch the receptionist, he'd have to crawl through the window, which would give her time to shut the window, or step out of the office and lock the door.

None of it involves you. Why would he attack you? You don't have drugs to give him. You can't write him a prescription. The chance that he's going to attack a bystander is very low.

If I'm attacked on the ride home, I have a pistol in the car. I usually have a gun on me in the doctor's office. The only time I can recall not having it is for surgery or a drug test. Actually, the last time I had a drug test, they gave me a locker for the contents of my pockets, so my gun went in there. I covered the butt of gun with my hand so the cheap pocket holster looked like a wallet or checkbook.
 
It is true that loud arguments do happen regularly.

But a relatively small subset of these include the phrase "someone is going to die!".

And junkies, including homeless junkies, are known to sometimes carry knives or clubs. Or sometimes use improvised contact weapons.

Plus:
Old Dog said:
Lots of violence walks into ERs on a regular basis.

Medical buildings and doctors' offices are also common sites of workplace violence, and a lot of deranged ex-boyfriends, ex-husbands, ex-patients and ex-employees with bad intent seem to get in these places too frequently.
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Lastly, predicting what an angry person is going to do is beyond the capabilities of my crystal ball. Yours may be better.


Expecting an argument to always just be an argument is kind of like saying you only carry in dangerous places. For both, most of us just can't be sure about the risk, or the potential negative consequences, beforehand.

Best to be prepared for the worst, and happy when nothing bad happens.
 
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Kleanbore said:
intervening in the kind of medical emergency described in the OP
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Intervening in a medical emergency? Nah. Somebody who falls over clutching their chest is a medical emergency.

A better description of this situation would probably be "managing an unknown contact".

"A better approach is to do our homework, have a solid plan in place that is based [on] consistent responses for managing unknown contacts, be aware of what is going on around us especially in areas where the likelihood of encountering strangers is significant, and then default to our plan when contact occurs."

https://ccwsafe.com/resources/craig-douglas-on-managing-unknown-contacts/


No comments in this thread so far have specifically mentioned that my planned response seemed to be built for countering threats from predators who are focused on me and who clearly present a deadly threat (although @JeffWhite did hint about this). You have all been too kind. Unfortunately, this kind of thinking can lead to limiting action plans to only retreating and using a firearm.

I'm pretty much guilty as charged.

These tactics work when they work. But I was uncomfortable when I was boxed in and didn't have my tools on me. I didn't have other tactics I could call upon that might also work in this situation.


One response recommended here is to carry guns deeper into medical settings. Others have suggested expanding the physical toolset (knives, canes/sticks, pepper spray, etc.) and associated training. Others recommend tactics that are less tool-dependant (hand-to-hand, grappling) that are also good choices for ambiguous "unknown contacts".

These are all good training opportunities for me. Thank you!

Perhaps these might be training opportunities for others here, too...
 
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luzyfuerza said:
These tactics work when they work. But I was uncomfortable when I was boxed in and didn't have my tools on me. I didn't have other tactics I could call upon that might also work in this situation.
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I skipped over some of the responses but did anyone suggest just getting up and leaving? That’s the tactic I probably would have used.
 
luzyfuerza said:
It is true that loud arguments do happen regularly.

But a relatively small subset of these include the phrase "someone is going to die!".

And junkies, including homeless junkies, are known to sometimes carry knives or clubs. Or sometimes use improvised contact weapons.

Plus:


Lastly, predicting what an angry person is going to do is beyond the capabilities of my crystal ball. Yours may be better.


Expecting an argument to always just be an argument is kind of like saying you only carry in dangerous places. For both, most of us just can't be sure about the risk, or the potential negative consequences, beforehand.

Best to be prepared for the worst, and happy when nothing bad happens.
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I never said that the addict couldn't have a weapon. it was implied when I said he might try to stab the receptionist. I would assume anyone old enough to cut their own food would have access to a knife, and "improvised contact weapons" are everywhere.

I never said you shouldn't be armed. I'm armed every time I can be, and I said so.

Maybe I'm not paranoid enough? My crystal ball isn't working right? My wife works at one of the big pharmacy chains and she's more likely to be killed in a robbery or by confronting an aggressive shoplifter than all the addicts wigging out because their fake/already filled/expired prescriptions aren't being filled. And she's far, far more likely to die of old age than any of those things. The shoppers can't just flee the store every time one of these guys says somebody's going to die.

Or they can. So can the employees. In my personal situation, I would see that as an unneeded disruption to my life. I'm just not that scared to die that I go into red alert every time I see an addict or hobo doing typical addict and hobo things.

My perspective on life and risk assessment may be out of scope for this thread. If it is, I apologize.
 
Kleanbore said:
That's one kind.
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Sorry but drug or alcohol use created problems for me aren't medical emergencies that I want to be involved with. I will call professionals but I wasted too many hours of my life with their endless drama to get involved. Also angry mental cases same, I won't even look them in the eye ,I use peripheral looks to size then up in possible vectors of vulnerability to my defense if they attack. BTW one does NOT go into condition red unless under immanent or ongoing attack . Rather one prepares on condition orange their best defense. For me I breathe deeply and regularly to avoid the adrenaline dump which will happen if things go south. I size up the environment I am in and a brief evaluation of the characters and their actions . Possible enemy are looked at dispassionately but rather as an animal that I must defend against in the best way possible I am able. I am unresponsive to any threats or ranting and fix my focus on hands and body language while positioning into the best possible vector with distance and cover.I look for weapons at hand if I am not carrying a gun , a knife is a last ditch surprise and requires a certain trained berserker application to really be successful in open combat ( although a good stealth weapon) . Just a few hints. I always put compassion and Mercy which is Love foremost in any situation with bad players.That makes me pretty much undefeatable as the body responds to 60 years of combat training. :).
 
Larger Clinics (those that belong to a network) and hospitals almost always will have a code for hostile/dangerous persons. Most folks are familiar with Code Blue for a cardiac arrest. The facility I worked in called code grey for hostile/dangerous persons/patients. Staff in facilities that have these codes in place will receive training on how/when/why to activate them and what the response will be. I have activated the code as well as responded to them.

Next time you're in that clinic ask a staff member if they have a code for those kinds of incidents and what their protocol is. Accredited facilities from the Joint Commission or like org have that as an inspection criterion under workplace violence and safety. Ask if your facility is accredited or check the front entrances for stickers or placards saying they are.
 
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