LCP II, Ruger's strange instruction

[Hanzo581]

Started with someone making a comment online about the LCP II on a YouTube video, it was a conversation about how you shouldn't carry the LCP II with a round in the chamber. I usually comment how carrying a firearm without a round chambered for personal defense is a terrible idea, and someone says, "even Ruger says in the manual if you do carry, carry on an empty chamber". I called BS, then I read it...

If dropped or struck, the pistol may fire. Keep chamber empty unless actually firing! For maximum safety when carrying the pistol with a loaded magazine in place, the chamber should be empty, and the slide should be closed. If placed into a holster, check it to be sure that the slide is not retracted far enough to chamber a cartridge from the magazine.

I'll admit, I don't always read manuals, but this seems crazy to me. Do other firearms meant for self defense/concealed carry say this kind of stuff? Or is this just a "cover you butt" legal thing?

 

[ray15]

Certainly the makers put whatever their lawyers tell them to into the manuals, but I'd have to question Ruger on this one. They state the pistol may fire if dropped or struck - I don't think the lawyers would allow that statement were it not true. It leads to the conclusion that a firing pin disconnect safety is not effectively implemented. I'm not much of a fan of manual safeties, but I'd never own a CCW that lacked a proper disconnect safety.

 

[edwardware]

Every manual I've ever read warns never to load the weapon until you're ready to fire, and always unload when you're done.

Typical lawyer-y CYA, like the warning that you should never insert a Qtip into your ear canal.

 

[Hanzo581]

Every manual I've ever read warns never to load the weapon until you're ready to fire, and always unload when you're done.

Typical lawyer-y CYA, like the warning that you should never insert a Qtip into your ear canal.

Oh it says not to load until you're ready to fire and unload after just like all of them, but it went out of its way to talk about carrying since it's of course a deep concealment concealed carry gun. Honestly, I am not too worried about mine, though I don't feel great about that warning.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

CYA. nothing more.

 

[Fiv3r]

My guess is that Ruger is doing some extra butt covering due to the lcpii being a pocket pistol with a lightish trigger and no manual safety.

If they say that a gun can go off is struck or dropped...and it can (if you're a dumb dumb and try to catch it and pull the trigger On accident), then they are saving themselves from potential lawsuits where some knuckle head decides to skip the pocket holster and stuff a chambered Lcp II in his front pocket and shoots himself. After all, "the gun just went off!"

I see nothing about the LCP II that would make it unsafe to carry chambered. My guess is that you could chuck it at a brick wall and it wouldn't go off.

I carry mine every day I'm not packing a slightly larger gun. The provided holster does the trick, and I feel pretty good packing around 6+1 that I can get on target fast and accurate.

I like the Lcpii well enough that it put all my other pocket pistols out to pasture.

 

[DeepSouth]

I thought everyone already knew Ruger had to many lawyers.

 

[Jimster]

When I'm not carrying a 1911 I'm packing my LCPII. Great little pocket pistol.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Started with someone making a comment online about the LCP II on a YouTube video, it was a conversation about how you shouldn't carry the LCP II with a round in the chamber. I usually comment how carrying a firearm without a round chambered for personal defense is a terrible idea, and someone says, "even Ruger says in the manual if you do carry, carry on an empty chamber". I called BS, then I read it...



I'll admit, I don't always read manuals, but this seems crazy to me. Do other firearms meant for self defense/concealed carry say this kind of stuff? Or is this just a "cover you butt" legal thing?

LCP = Little Crappy Pistol

 

[Hokkmike]

Started with someone making a comment online about the LCP II on a YouTube video, it was a conversation about how you shouldn't carry the LCP II with a round in the chamber. I usually comment how carrying a firearm without a round chambered for personal defense is a terrible idea, and someone says, "even Ruger says in the manual if you do carry, carry on an empty chamber". I called BS, then I read it...



I'll admit, I don't always read manuals, but this seems crazy to me. Do other firearms meant for self defense/concealed carry say this kind of stuff? Or is this just a "cover you butt" legal thing?

Lawyer-eese to be sure(???), but very poorly worded as to cast suspicion on the pistols safety.

 

[Panzerschwein]

LCP = Little Crappy Pistol

Oh?

 

[RalphS]

It leads to the conclusion that the firing pin (or striker) disconnect safety is not effectively implemented. I'm not much of a fan of manual safeties, but I'd never own a CCW that lacked a proper disconnect safety.

There is NO FIRING PIN BLOCK/SAFETY on any LCP. The first gen LCPs (I have one) were DAO hammer fired with the hammer flush with the back of the receiver so it was and is a very safe gun even without a Firing Pin Block. Then they changed it to striker fired with no manual safety and no Firing Pin Safety. These guns can and will fire if dropped or if anything in the fire control group fails. No thanks.

 

[MedWheeler]

The only maker I've ever seen acknowledge in their manuals that keeping their gun unloaded could (also) lead to injury or death is Taurus. I guess their lawyers look at every angle..

 

[Hanzo581]

I am searching for drop tests but I can't seem to find any. I mean I know the odds are crazy for something to happen, but I wouldn't mind seeing it tested.

 

[Fiv3r]

There is NO FIRING PIN BLOCK/SAFETY on any LCP. The first gen LCPs (I have one) were DAO hammer fired with the hammer flush with the back of the receiver so it was and is a very safe gun even without a Firing Pin Block. Then they changed it to striker fired with no manual safety and no Firing Pin Safety. These guns can and will fire if dropped or if anything in the fire control group fails. No thanks.

It's still hammer-fired. It just has more of a Single action feel due to the short take up (thus the Glock dingus). Im no expert on the finer workings of guns, but as far as i can tell the gun wont fire if the trigger isnt pulled. The trigger weight is still around 6 lbs.

Now, I will say that I can see why a shorter trigger without a 9-10lb pull might give some pause regarding pocket carry. The LCP II wouldn't be a pistol I carried "loose".

 

[zaitcev]

Ruger's website says this, in the FAQ section:

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/service/faqs.html

"Q: What hat safety devices are incorporated into the design of the LCP® II?

"We put a significant amount of engineering effort into designing a short, crisp LCP® II firing mechanism that also is safe, reliable and consistent. We then verified the design through our robust testing process.

"The LCP® II hammer and sear geometry were designed with significant engagement for a positive lockup. The sear is neutrally balanced and under strong spring tension, which helps prevent disengagement during a drop scenario. In the unlikely event that a significant shock to the pistol results in disengagement of the hammer from the sear, the design includes a hammer catch to help prevent the hammer from contacting the firing pin unless the trigger is pulled. Our testing has revealed that this design passes all standard tests and is very safe from discharge due to a drop."

I highlighted the statement that may slip attention of RalphS, Uncle Mike, and others.

 

[grampajack]

If it's not safe to carry with one in the chamber, then it's not safe period, as you're much more likely to drop it while actually firing it than if it's just riding in your pocket. I think maybe they should start shopping for new lawyers.

 

[Varminterror]

Interesting they claim to have a neutral sear angle, when the hammer clearly moves rearward during the trigger stroke - that's NOT neutral...

I don't expect Ruger to come to my legal aid if I'm ever involved in a defensive shooting, so I don't begrudge them for including a CYA instruction in their manual. I carry my LCP II loaded "+1."

 

[Tirod]

It uses a SAFE action style trigger, and from day one Glock insisted that a holster cover the trigger at all times when carried. Do not carry the LCP II in a pocket without a cover over the trigger.

The vast majority of discharges are when the gun is mishandled. A trigger finger is often involved, far more than dropping the gun. If Ruger included the language they were following liability concerns which are often vastly overstated in owner's manuals.

Dropping it would be the least of my worries.

Do not carry the LCP II in a pocket without a cover over the trigger. That is far more important.

 

[JONWILL]

It uses a SAFE action style trigger, and from day one Glock insisted that a holster cover the trigger at all times when carried. Do not carry the LCP II in a pocket without a cover over the trigger.

The vast majority of discharges are when the gun is mishandled. A trigger finger is often involved, far more than dropping the gun. If Ruger included the language they were following liability concerns which are often vastly overstated in owner's manuals.

Dropping it would be the least of my worries.

Do not carry the LCP II in a pocket without a cover over the trigger. That is far more important.

This is correct. I had one when they first came out. They are not striker fired. They have a hammer, which is almost if not to full cock, the trigger needs to be fully covered. I got rid of mine because during a draw from the pocket is isn't hard to pull the trigger compared to other guns. IMHO

 

[grampajack]

I don't know about the gen II, but the original LCP to me is pretty much like a revolver trigger. The hammer is slightly cocked, but it's still a long stiff pull. I've felt revolvers with lighter triggers before.

 

[hdwhit]

Hanzo581 wrote:
Do other firearms meant for self defense/concealed carry say this kind of stuff?

Every one I've come across says the same thing; don't carry a round in the chamber.

 

[Fiv3r]

I think the Israeli Draw is SOP as far as most gun manufacturer's lawyers are concerned.

I don't think the LCP II is any riskier to carry chambered than your average striker fired or cocked and locked gun. If you don't move the blade, the trigger won't move. If the trigger doesn't move, then the hammer won't drop and fire. I look at it sort of like a SAO thumb safety moved from the frame to the trigger.

I'm not the kind of guy who likes a racing 3.5lb trigger on a Glock, but a 6lb short pull doesn't seem overly light on a pocket pistol IF you are going to carry it in a holster of some kind. The II is not one to toss in a purse or gym bag chambered without the trigger covered.

That said, I still think that in order to "drop" this gun hard enough to actuate the hammer to fire, it would probably be traveling fast enough to obliterate the firearm on impact. Ruger is guilty of billboarding up there guns with legal speak for sure, but they do make a safety conscious product. I would find it hard to believe that the LCP II would have gotten off the drawing board, let alone into the public's hands if it were not uber drop safe.

 

[Varminterror]

I don't know about the gen II, but the original LCP to me is pretty much like a revolver trigger.

The LCP and LCP II are completely different triggers. The LCP is DAO with recoil assist (which means it can't double on a hard primer like a conventional DAO). The LCP II is SAO with a positive sear angle.