Lessons from a confrontation today

[drjoker]

NEVER get into a fist fight if you are carrying a gun. You might lose control of your weapon to the BG.

ALWAYS do a tactical retreat.

ALWAYS carry a less than lethal option like pepper spray. Spray, pray, and run.

NEVER run your mouth off at crazy people. They are crazy so nothing you say, no matter how reasonable, will change their minds. Just agree with them and leave.

Only use your gun as a last resort.

I was in an elevator with a crazy guy high on drugs once. His eyes were bloodshot and he smelled like booze, smoke, and B.O. For no reason, he yelled, "What the f*ck are you looking at?!" I slipped my hand inside my pocket and put my hand around my pistol. I looked away. "I'm gonna F*ck you up n*gg*r!" It was an enclosed area, so I could not use pepper spray and I couldn't retreat. "I'm not looking at anything," I said. He swung. I ducked. "Wham!" he hit the elevator wall and the elevator shook. I still did not draw my weapon, but if he swung again, I would have to shoot him. Just then, the elevator door opened. "ding" "Damn straight," he left the elevator and I breathed a sigh of relief.

Having a concealed gun is a BIG responsibility. If I let my pride or ego get the better of me, I would have taken a life that day. Taking a human life to defend your pride is a sure fire way to land yourself in hell and jail.

BTW, rainbowbob, you did great because you showed restraint.

 

[rainbowbob]

drjoker:

Thanks for the input. I agree with most of what you say...

...But...

I don't have any experience with pepper spray, but my impression is that it is less than effective in many cases.

We've all heard the old joke about how to identify grizzly scat by the bear bells and pepper spray canisters.

Will pepper spray stop an enraged crazy? Or will it enrage them further while NOT disabling them?

In your case it wasn't an option because of the close quarters. I would think that would often be the case in a face-to-face assault situation (even if you weren't in an elevator).

Good on you for not having to shoot the crazy in the elevator - although after he swung on you, you would have been justified in my opinion. Waiting for the next swing - which might have knocked you out - might have been one swing too many.

Glad it turned out all right for you, too.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

I am late to this thread.

After reading and digesting the encounter and debrief with your wife, I believe it worked as well as it could have.

There are some people are going to resort to ego, bumping guts and chest beating as a prelude to violence. Retreat as bitter as it may taste while keeping control of your family and your gun in control is a good option.

Perhaps your wife may have cell phone and call police while moving child out of area and you calmly work your way back to vehicle.

The fact that you bladed your body to left and had a hand on a weapon (I presume) is a absolutely CLEAR signal to me as a rational person that you dont wish a fight but potentially can be very much armed. If I was the aggressor I would not have advanced on you any further.

But tempers be that as it may, you may be forced to have the guy close to about 9 feet or so and show weapon. That should be enough. Keep working back towards the car.

Maintain every sense of peace and deescalate as fast as possible. Be the peaceful man who speaks soft while packing a big stick.

Suppose the guy wanted to fight with fists. What if he discovered your weapon? Would he have gotten control of it if you by chance had the buttstrap loose?

I know this. If I was you in there and that man is loud, bully and noise, no problem just get out quietly. Ego is not the issue. But if he attacked with rapid steps with a fist to swing or worse, reached fast to draw something.... then it's over the point.

It's not pleaseant to have to deal with dogs that are not yet knowing better, even worse when owners are not doing what they need. Im disappointed.

But my thinking, all in all... anything you walk away from without firing a shot and no one getting hurt is a good thing.

Be that as it may you showed one thing that we all should learn and keep to heart. Maintain control of your weapon at all times. There are some BG's are faster, bigger and harder hitting than you. That glass jaw you might have will be a silver platter to the bg with weapon now to shoot family, dogs etc while yer unconsious.

That would not be good.

We ditched pepper in favor of taser. Hopefully it will be sufficent.

The worst thing for a rational man is to take the verbal abuse. There is always something in the english repitore a word that will push your button and enrage you. Your mammy or something. Most BG's wish to provoke you to either bursting into tears, losing your temper so they can beat you or perhaps inviting a proper beating so they can be reinforced by the pleasure of beating you silly.

Some folks are like dogs. Reinforcment of behavior in a rewarding way is a baaaaad. thing.

=)

I had a confrontation years ago by two unknowns. Fortunatly I was with friends who were advancing down the hill towards me and the two. I got saved by that because two versus 8 caused them BG's to back off. I made several mistakes prior to that and one of those was stopping, the other was failing to go to the LEO barracks.

 

[gossamer]

The four most important and fool-proof steps to de-escalation of a potentially violent interaction are:

1) Don't insult him

Doesn't sound like you insulted him really. Sounds like he took you telling him to read the rules as an insult. So maybe we're okay on rule #1.

2) Don't challenge him

I said “There isn’t much to talk about, just read the posted rules.”
I backed away, and he also retreated saying, “If your wife and kid weren’t here I would really f*** with you.”
I said, “Is that right?”

There's a bit of challenge there.

3) Don't deny it's happening (you're good here)

4) Give him a face saving way out. (this is borderline. I'd say your wife handled this one. Stepping between you was a bad idea, it just happend to have led him to a face saving way out).

Looking at your individual behavior it's a dicey situation. If this had escalated into a deadly situation, where you survived, it's quite possible you could be in jail and/or facing a civil trial. If we violate any one of the rules of escalation, then we are by definition, NOT de-escalating, we are escalating. And if we, those who carry a lethal weapon, engage in even the least bit of escalation to go on and survive a deadly encounter, well, the question is "why did you escalate the situation and then kill someone?"

And that's a TOUGH question to defend, and it's an expensive one to defend.

 

[The Amigo]

Words are not worth the agreviattion

Theres an old saying that the real samurai is not the one who carries the biggest sword or the one who has chopped the most heads.. the real samurai is the one who wins a battle without having to pull his sword out of his sheath and lives for the next sunrise.

 

[MDG1976]

Everyone walked away uninjured and un-arrested. the incident was handled perfectly.

 

[conw]

rainbowbob, I've started carrying a pocket stick (it's actually on my keychain with a breakaway lanyard, keychain is clipped to my belt loop - fast access) after mercop's posts about bridging weapons. The idea is, I access it quickly before it's ok to pull the gun and I use it fast then escape or buy time to draw. I formerly carried pepper spray, and I think spraying someone with pepper spray - what with the wide spectrum of reactions! - while entertaining the idea of drawing is MUCH more complicated than hitting them really hard with a small handheld stick. People tend to react more uniformly when they're hit with a blunt object, so I know better what to expect.

 

[JT1JT1]

Conwict,

At the risk of being off topic, I'm curious to hear of any real-life success stories in the use of pocket sticks (or koppo, yawara, kubaton, or whatever they're called) by people who did not ALREADY have significant unarmed combat training.

I can see how a skilled fighter could make great use of a pocket stick, but it's hard for me to see how a lesser skilled person would gain much tactical advantage, especially since it requires very close contact to be deployed.

A big stick seems a different story, perhaps accommodating a wider range of ability levels, but I suppose not everyone is keen to carry a cane or the like.

 

[RoboDuck]

I have a friend who had a simular situation happen.Word were exchanged, tempers flaired . However the moron was much more aggressive. He met force with equal force . A fight broke out and was settled in just a few punches. He left the scene as quickly as possible with his wife and young son. About an hour later a uniform officer showed up at his house and arrested him for assault. When he went to court and explained to the judge what happened , the main question was why didn't he or his wife simply dial 911?
This inncident wound up costing him time off work, attorney fees and several hours in jail.

 

[conw]

JT1, I don't consider myself a fighter and I'm not (unfortunately! - YET) trained in pocket stick use. Of course, to my understanding much of the training is more police-oriented and involves submission techniques, holds, and grappling - not something I am focusing on in my own defensive repertoire.

However, I am fairly strong and fast and this weapon hides well in my hand. I put a lot more stock in one hit with this than I do one open-or-closed- hand punch. And it is something I wouldn't mind just dropping if I needed to run or draw. I suppose you're right about more training being better, but I feel that this item (at about 1/3 oz and literally okay to take anywhere I go) is a valuable first line of defense for me. One vicious hit early on could really tilt things in my favor!

--

Edit: I see you're discussing close contact. My philosophy is to withdraw as early as possible at any sign of a threat; this thing would be utilized if I had to escape past someone or if I were cornered by an unarmed aggressor, or in situations like that. I am not sticking around to use it if I can leave first.

Layered defense - don't be there when something bad happens, leave if possible, de-escalate verbally if I can't leave, use non-lethal force (kubotan) if facing threatening but apparently unarmed attacker, escape then if possible or if attacker presents lethal force, transition to gun and stop threat with lethal force.

 

[RoboDuck]

I put a lot more stock in one hit with this than I do one open-or-closed- hand punch. And it is something I wouldn't mind just dropping if I needed to run or draw.

Why would you not just carry a pair of brass knuckles (unlawful)? Have you ever seen brass Knuckles used in a fight . A 15 year old kid can break your jaw with one punch. They are in most jurisdictions considered a leathal weapon. I'm sure the stick would fall in the same catagory while being far less effective.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Conwict, I submit to you with most respect and ... gentleness as I can without any dishonor or disrespect intended at all.

I used to keep about 7 feet between myself and anyone. About three steps. I only need to see the first two before advancing to engage or to retreat.

Ive already been under attack a few times physically but managed to most of the time get out of it.

Age marches on. Sooner or later, I learn that somewhere out there is someone bigger, faster, badder and meaner than soft little me.

I dont intend to go out because Im 60 still thinking 18. Tragic, it would be.

 

[conw]

Hungry, I think I agree with your point (you can clarify if you'd like - that would be helpful)...I totally agree that distance is my friend. The problem is that in some areas or situations, an unarmed person can close distance quickly. Yes, I am always prepared to react, but I can't legally or morally justify shooting someone who attacks me unarmed who I don't think wants to kill or maim me. I know that I could be killed or maimed, but let's be honest - there are some punks around that might just start a fight physically without thinking things through. If I shoot them, I'm suddenly the bad guy. A fit younger guy shooting someone because they slap at him or punch him in the shoulder is called manslaughter at best.

RoboDuck, you answered the question yourself. The knuckles simply aren't legal. Even if they were, they require two hands to don and don't allow for fast transitions to a gun. A small stick is used much differently from the brass knuckles though...it's a hammerfisted strike you want to go for, not a fistload effect.

 

[Smith]

My one humble critique:

I said “There isn’t much to talk about, just read the posted rules.”
I backed away, and he also retreated saying, “If your wife and kid weren’t here I would really f*** with you.”
I said, “Is that right?”

As Gossamer mentioned, "Is that right?" might have been interpreted as a challenge. While you may not have meant it in that way, to some guy with temper problems looking for a fight, it might have come across as "I don't believe you could." in response to his threat, therefore challenging him to prove it.

But besides that, nobody was hurt, sued, or arrested, so good job on managing the confrontation! I'm glad everything turned out ok for you and your family.

 

[polekitty]

How old?

You refer to your wife as "grandma" and you were there with a "grand child." So, I assume you are a (very) senior citizen. I aggree with some of the guys you did well in trying to defuse the situation, even though you did make a few errors which could have been "costly." But, that other guy made a really serious mistake. Somewhere I saw a comment: "Never pick a fiight with an old man. If he is too old to fight he'll just kill you." I guess that other guy never heard of that philosophy!

 

[rainbowbob]

As Gossamer mentioned, "Is that right?" might have been interpreted as a challenge.

OP here: I agree totally, and admit that my back was up by that point. Fortunately, his only response was, "Yeah that's right, idiot!"...as he was turning and walking away.

I quickly realized I'd already said too much and broke off any further "communication" with the thug.

As someone else pointed out - and as I realized after the incident - I should have immediately let it go when I asked him (reasonably) politely to take control of his puppy and he went off on me. He had clearly demonstrated his antisocial tendencies and I should have quickly and quietly hustled my family down the trail in the opposite direction.

 

[rainbowbob]

You refer to your wife as "grandma" and you were there with a "grand child." So, I assume you are a (very) senior citizen.

Now hold..I say hold on thar, young polekitty! I'll have you know I was a child bride...I mean to say my wife was a child bride. We're only in our fifties for cryin-out-loud! That may seem VERY senior to you now, but you'll be surprised in twenty or thirty years how young that is - and how quickly you got there!

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Rainbowbob, Hustling family +1

Conwict +1 on what you said about unarmed thug. But if that thug gets control of weapon, or close to it, it's shooting time.

Most of the time I think unarmed thugs tend to halt in track when presented with weapon's bore and dont want any more trouble. He still needs to be arms length or more from the weapon. That is my DMZ if you please.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Nice self-post-mortem; good job.

 

[Eyesac]

I certainly agree with those who institute avoidance and retreat as the first alternatives. But it is situations like this that have led me to the opinion that anyone who carries a firearm for personal defense should also carry a non-lethal weapon. My choice is OC spray. It is light, compact, inexpensive, and may allow you to adequately defend yourself while keeping your arse out of prison.

+1

I'm glad everything worked out of course, and I sympathize with your situation. It's hard to live the first half of your life with no gun, and have to rely on your mouth and your fists to keep you safe, and then to switch to a whole new set of rules. I carry OC (in addition) for just such a situation (I call it my: "drunk hobo-gettin' physical-defense weapon"). There are too many situations that fall into that grey area, of possibly violent but possibly not life threatening. Ah, so many things to wonder...

 

[Eyesac]

I've started carrying a pocket stick

I've done a little boxing, and any kind of stick in your hand is a false sense of security IMHO. Best case you bap someone who's unprepared with your stick and it really hurts and he backs off. Worst case, the guy's been in a few fights and you can't make the stick, well, stick. Pepper spray or a gun for that matter aren't quite so tricky to apply (again IMO), where as being able to stop a determined attacker with a small stick would be quite a thing to see...

 

[Hikingman]

The 'Do We Need to Talk Guy' was in a mood, or just a jerk in general. The hand on the neutralizer grip does provide a feeling of security.

That jerk's mentality did not go far enough to realize that he was probably outgunned in the real sense. In martial arts we learned that there's always someone better, and the jerk reminds me of those tough thinkin' hombres that should NEVER strut to the tune of 'I can take that dude, no problem.'

 

[rainbowbob]

The 'Do We Need to Talk Guy' was in a mood, or just a jerk in general.

It was apparent to me that this was more than just a mood - this was a lifestyle. Although I didn't pick up on it immediately, in retrospect, the look of dread on the face and in the body language of the woman with him still haunts me a little. My fear is that she later took the beating he wasn't able to administer to me.

 

[Hungry Seagull]

Let's see here.

Escalation aside the real surprise will be for the bully who puffed up and continued to advance or escalate the sitaution thinking mentally that he is all that and can wipe the deck with mr family man....

what Bullie does not seem to understand is that family man has a weapon on his person, that weapon has yet to reveal itself.

SURPRISE!!!!

 

[conw]

I've done a little boxing, and any kind of stick in your hand is a false sense of security IMHO.

No offense, but what does boxing experience have to do with judging how effective using a stick would be? Boxing isn't like real fighting. You probably do know more about footwork than I do, but it's odd that you use your boxing knowledge to say something about a stick as a protection option. Lots of people I trust a good deal about personal protection (mercop, Don Rearic, Jshirley) say any small blunt object can provide a good advantage. Since I am unwilling to start a fight for trial purposes, I just practice with it as well I can.