Let's talk aluminum baseball bats

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Isn't the point to negate the situation? Isn't it best to negate it without bloodshed?

I don't believe that was really the point. The point is that it's idiotic to rely on deterrence, as opposed to merely hoping that the bad guy gets deterred.

If you keep a shotgun in cruiser ready condition, hear a burglar some night, and then wait until you know he's in earshot to rack the slide; i.e., you were holding an empty gun for some length of time, while you had no clue where this guy was, just so you could make a scary noise when you did find him, or he found you... that's really stupid.

But if your shotgun is in cruiser ready and you just rack the slide the instant you pick it up, that's not so stupid. There are tons of other reasons to not have a round in the chamber (like house fires), and racking the slide as soon as possible means you have a functioning gun as soon as possible. If the guy hears the sound and runs off, so much the better, but that would be a purely incidental effect.

Also, "threat of deadly force" is mainly to catch criminals. Actually, pretty sure that in England, it's only a felony assault if you actually manage to inflict some manner of wound, and if the court determines that you intended to inflict grievous bodily injury and/or death. So if you threaten to shoot someone, it's not a felony assault. If you shoot and miss, that's not a felony assault either. If you only wing the guy, it's only a felony assault if you don't say "I only meant to wing 'im!"

So US law makes an attempt at punishing intent, while British law only punishes success. Actually, that's a very common theme if you compare the two legal systems.
 
Clubs are deadly weapons. As much as any handgun.

I disagree, while clubs certainly can and will kill, they are not as deadly as a handgun, if you take away head shots, i'll choose getting hit by a bat over shot every time, further an assailant can "block" with his forearms. that never works as well as "blocking" a bullet esp. in popular service calibers. There is a reason that policeman carry sidearms in addition to clubs.

I do agree that modifying a bat is incrediably stupid and dosent increase effectivness(think of those nails getting caught on someones clothing)
 
Lets think a little more HighRoad

This is an update of an older post, I hope it stimulates some discussion.

Been trying to put my thoughts on my Self defense philosophy into a format I can share with others. It is more about thinking and planning than blazing guns.
Here it is. Tell me what you think. It is not carved in stone and I am open to all suggestions!

I use the acronym STARE W

S = Situational awareness. Think. Be aware of what is around you, and how it is developing, and how it will affect you. In a static situation like the home,keep thinking and re-evaluating your plan.

T = Train with all your weapons of choice. Create a layered defense, Become
proficient using your brain, hands, impact weapons, knives,and guns.
Think about other things that can be improvised weapon in a given
situation.

A = Avoid potential trouble. Blend in. Keep your mouth shut.

R = Remove yourself from the area, run, walk, drive.

E = Escape or evade from the problem, if you can

and the W is:

W = Win if fighting is your only option.
 
Just my opinion bikerdoc, but could you combine R and E, and then make E eliminate the threat(to you not neccessarily to everyone) ?

Then you can get rid of the cumbersome W just MHO
 
qwert65,

See posts 22 and 23 (wow, never try to post when you have influenza and a fever of 102!:eek:). A bat may be used in a less lethal manner AND most people who have come into BQ's ER with club wounds to the head did not survive while a much higher percentage of pistol shot patients recovered. Ask an ER nurse or MD which takes longer to recover from and produces more permanent disability, a gunshot wound or a shattered "pick your body part". I don't have any objective statistics, but my friends who work in ER an Surgery have all (all 5 of them) said that they'd rather have some punk shoot them than have some punk wail on them with a baseball bat.

Don't take my word for it if it seems too incredible. Ask your acquaintances who work in ER or Surgery their opinion.
 
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Hso, I cant find posts 65 and 66 I'm only post 30??
In my experience (I'm new at it) as a veternarian, I see lots of animals, HBC, stabbed, shot hit by sticks, etc. Since tissue is tissue medically speaking it really depends on the force and where hit for example (and this one supports your opinion) I saw a dog shot with a 22 to the skull, it was behaving normal(though I'm sure it had a headache)

Another dog this one a GSD was shot 3x with a 357, didnt hit anything vital and was fine.

I've also seen dogs get shot in the abdomen, face, and chest and taking out the face(shotgun) these injuries were much worse then if clubbed in that area. the one in the chest the bullet entered both lungs and exited the chest ribs might break from a bat and bruise some lungs but thats all. further if the bullet struck the heart it's game over

obvisouly any study is unscientific as glancing blows with both weapons are possible. further getting shot with a 22/25 is different then a 45/44 same as me swinging a bat compares to barry bonds swinging one.

they'd rather have some punk shoot them than have some punk wail on them with a baseball bat.

This I agree with but ask them if they would rather have some punk wail on them or get shot repeatdly. you cannot compare getting hit 10x in the head/chest vs a single hole it is completly different, compare to getting hit with one pellet from 00 or all 9 pellets.
Another thing to consider besides the amount hit is that dead ppl go to the morgue, this skews the stats of ppl shot in the head. I do not know if you are a hunter but would you rather hunt man size game with a bat or a handgun?

yay 500 posts!
 
I personally prefer a heavy walking stick, or a crowbar, both of which I am more likely to use for the purpose they were originally intended for than a baseball bat.
 
if you take away head shots, i'll choose getting hit by a bat over shot every time

You ever been shot dude? I have, and I can tell you that it's maybe 50/50 if I would rather get shot again vice getting worked over with a bat. That is actually one of the reasons I am such a fan of the simple bat. So you know, I have been in situations where people were not afraid of guns but were terrified of getting whacked by an axe handle. I am not saying the bat is the equal or superior to the firearm, but it can be just as fearsome.
 
Aluminum bat?

I was in the Sevierville County Hospital (I think that was the name of it) emergency room in Tennessee late one night after a friend got food poisoning on our trip.

I had been in there for hours and had already seen some interesting sights, when in come some EMTs with a fella whose face looked like raw hamburger. His shirt was thoroughly soaked with blood, and his eyes were completely swollen shut. A few minutes later the police came in with a young lady in a nightgown and house slippers. One of the cops was holding an aluminum T-ball bat.

I'll let you do the math.

Don't know whether it was SD or not, or if the guy lived, but he was sure messed up. And she was a little bitty thing.

Jason
 
In my "rough and tumble" days , many people called me Batman .

Now I carry a 2"x2"x 3 foot lenght of green outdoor type porch rail --- the squareness of it , causes more damage to skin and bone then a round object. A round object has more of a chance of "glanceing off " a hard round bone {think skull } while a sqr. or rect. will have the sharp corners more likey to "dig in".

I learned that myself while learning nunchucks and other Eskrima-type weapons = OUCH !!!!
 
qwert65,

It may be that your observations as an animal doctor and those of the people doctors are different because of the way that the two see bats and guns used.

Humans rarely get shot more than a couple of times. The riddled with holes incidents are pretty rare. When folks start swinging with a bat they're almost always swinging for the head. That's why those defensive injuries to the arms are so common, people trying to protect the head. Once they connect with the head the damage is pretty massive.

I would think the few times a bat gets used on a dog, the angle of attack is pretty different from that of a human and that the targets are more general as opposed to focused on the head.

TK, you should talk to an SF buddy of mine that was in Somalia. He has a story about people there having nearly no fear of their weapons until a driver pulled out a "silver" bat and whacked one of the locals on the head to get him off the supply truck. The crowd reacted so immediately and strongly that the team had shot aluminum bats flown in ASAP. Crowd control became much easier after that.
 
hso, that is a good point, animals are usually better at dodging and except for abuse cases usually only get hit once or twice. however I still would take a handgun over a bat anyday

Timbokhan, if you read post 31 I clearly state that there is a giant difference btw getting hit repeatley with a bat vs one gsw.

My only point was that a bat is not the equal to a handgun(or at least any in a service caliber) as was stated in an earlier post.
 
The point is that it's idiotic to rely on deterrence

Excellent post, Ryan, that's my point exactly. If you are indeed facing a potentially lethal threat, you can never rely on having excess time. Which means by the time any firearm of mine is on my target, I'm going to be squeezing the trigger. By the same token, I don't plan on posturing menacingly ( :rolleyes: ) with any manual tool before I employ it defensively.

John
 
If someone comes after me with a bat, I like my chances of outrunning them. Most likely the perp will trip on his own, sagging, pair of pants, before he could ever get close enough to take a swing. One the other hand its kinda hard to out run gun fire.

Fight or flight instincts, of course, depend a lot on the particular situation, and your own physical abilities.
 
I have a small aluminum bat for knocking sharks in the head. Of course there aren't any sharks other than in the commercial aquariums here in TN. But, you know, you do have to watch out for those sand sharks, land sharks, and occasionally those snow sharks. They are spreading east from the Gulf Coast.
 
And to add to the thread, you could always get a fish bonker. They conceal a little better than a full size bat.

Yeah, those are nice, but fish bonkers/tire thumpers are not legal in all states IIRC. A Louisville Slugger is. You are right though, about the size being a little easier to stow away, as well as the lanyard.

Jason
 
Grizfire said:
I like the lanyard on this one so that you can wrap it around your wrist, lessening the likely hood of it being taken away.
The lanyard works both ways, if it's secured to your wrist.
 
I would think the few times a bat gets used on a dog, the angle of attack is pretty different from that of a human and that the targets are more general as opposed to focused on the head.

Speaking for myself, I would have a little bit of a hard time cracking a dog with a bat. I mean, getting attacked sucks and I certainly will if I need to, but in the back of my head, I think I know that the dog is just being a dog. Maybe a mean dog, but a dog nevertheless. Humans that are in whacking distance are going to get cracked because they are purposefully, knowingly and with malice breaking societal norms. As they break them, so shall I.

As a general rule, I don't think most people really want to have to hit a dog. My suspicion is that most of us just sort of hope the dog will go away. For proof of my theory, I would suggest watching virtually any video of someone getting gnawed on. The general response is not to punch the dog, the general response is to shy away and avoid the bite. With some exceptions, watch any episode of Cops. Guys will turn into jelly immediately when the dog attacks. Not always of course, but most times.

Qwert, I saw the difference you spoke of and was addressing it from the point of view that most people that swing a bat aren't going to just do it once, but are going to whack away. If you want to compare one solid hit to the body v. one gunshot wound, it's hard to argue against what you are saying. If you want to argue headshot v. headbashing, not so much. Not to sound creepy or bloodthirsty or mall-ninjaish, but I guarantee you that if I put all (or even just most) of my considerable bulk behind a swing and connected with a guys head, he would be just as dead as if I shot him. As a general principle, I don't consider a gun any more or less dangerous than any other weapon. That may sound a little weird to you, but I don't. That isn't to say I don't consider them a superior weapon, because I do, just not inherently more dangerous. I mean, dead is dead. Bullets don't kill you any deader (nor, in many cases, any quicker) than a bat to the head, a sword through the heart or a sharp stick in your throat.
 
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I think a bat or other blunt forc e truma weapon will have a much faster effect than a bullet in some cases. And in some cases, dischargeing a firearm may not be in the cards. Crowded surroundings, danger to family members, shooting is not an option sometimes.

Also there are times one may have to have a weapon, but can't have a firearm. Traveling overseas, a student in a college dorm room, Landing in a airport in a non-firearms city.

The one time I had to defend a member of our family, it was a pit bull attack on our corgi. If I'd had a gun, I couldn't have used it anyways, since the pit was on top of my dog. I had no choice but to use a stout hornbeam hiking staff. I'd have ended up shooting my own dog with any gun.

From what I've read about past battles and weapon, blunt force seems to have been preffered. I suppose medevil peasants cold have carried a large dagger for defense, but the quarterstaff seemed to be most popular among those who traveled the king's highway.You may not even feel a really sharp bladed injury for a bit, but a crushing blow will cripple that hand/arm imediatly.
 
This conversation is being carried out by- I suspect- largely healthy men. While I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a little old lady's cane either, I think the relevance of a gun as a self-defense tool is that it works for the infirmed, frail, and otherwise helpless better than any other tool which relies upon strength, aggression, and dexterity.

It is difficult for me to see a bat being used clinically (outside of psychopathic stoicism or martial arts mastery) and without anger, which its less-than-lethal (in many minds if not legal status) nature might invite its unwarranted use. I can see one being used out of desperation... but if we have guns, we ought to rely on those in such times.

To be clear, in the eyes of the law, the legal consequences of using a firearm are identical to using a bat in self-defense (barring sentencing factors - if you're using it in correlation with a drug sale, for example). A bat constitutes lethal force, just like a gun does. To flip the question, would you be justified in shooting a man coming at you with a club? Of course you would! So even if you mean to use your club as a less-than-lethal self-defense tool, the law will not treat it that way.

If you're contemplating a bat either as a covert means of self-defense or as a way of dealing less-than-lethal trauma over a firearm... those are bad reasons.

If otherwise disarmed, then you do the best with what you can, but improvised weaponry aren't more "innocent" legally than items traditionally deemed weapons.
 
["This conversation is being carried out by- I suspect- largely healthy men. While I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of a little old lady's cane either, I think the relevance of a gun as a self-defense tool is that it works for the infirmed, frail, and otherwise helpless better than any other tool which relies upon strength, aggression, and dexterity.

It is difficult for me to see a bat being used clinically (outside of psychopathic stoicism or martial arts mastery) and without anger, which its less-than-lethal (in many minds if not legal status) nature might invite its unwarranted use. I can see one being used out of desperation... but if we have guns, we ought to rely on those in such times.

To be clear, in the eyes of the law, the legal consequences of using a firearm are identical to using a bat in self-defense (barring sentencing factors - if you're using it in correlation with a drug sale, for example). A bat constitutes lethal force, just like a gun does. To flip the question, would you be justified in shooting a man coming at you with a club? Of course you would! So even if you mean to use your club as a less-than-lethal self-defense tool, the law will not treat it that way.

If you're contemplating a bat either as a covert means of self-defense or as a way of dealing less-than-lethal trauma over a firearm... those are bad reasons.

If otherwise disarmed, then you do the best with what you can, but improvised weaponry aren't more "innocent" legally than items traditionally deemed weapons."]

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Well I for one am rated at 50% disabled by injuries from active duty. I know of a few others here that are advancing age. Then there was that pen that gave some very unexpected resistance to an attack for an old woman.

Guns are fine is you're allowed to have them. But some of us have the minfortune to live in a non CCW state. I'm not sure of the point of your post. Yes a gun is going to be better for aged or infirm people. But this is the "Non-firearms weapons" forum, so we explore other choices. There are some people who by geography, or other reason, cannot have a firearm. I very much doubt you will have yours if you get on a plane and land in New York or London, or Washington D.C., San Fransisco or....

As for a non firearm weapon appearing more innocent, I doubt that elderly lady would have had such an easy time walking away if she'd pulled a small J frame .38 and shot the guy. Most jurys would not have nailed her for anything, but she would still be out all the lawyers fee's and court time it took to get her off. Not to mention living with it afterward. If there is a less than leathal way to get rid of a low life, it's okay to do so. The keyboard comando will never really know what it's like to see the light in someones go out forever, even ifit is a thug attacking you. For most people it can be a good thing to avoid it. Pull the trigger on anyone, and see the trouble that comes knocking vs jabbing someone in the gut with a cane or swinging a bat at an intruder in a dorm room. There's a whole world of difference in what is used. Using a cane, or bat, or pen, or any other household item, has way more plausible deniability attached to it than using a trusty 1911 on someone. In the case of a bat or cane or like, there's a definate possabiltiy there will be no police involvement at all. If the intruder runs off, all's well. Drop an intuder with a gun, and your legal problems have just begun, like it or not. Those troubles can haunt you for years to come. again, even if you win, it's going to cost lots of bucks for the lawyers.

I've noticed that among people in CCW states, too often the only responce they can come up with is the "pull my gun and shoot them" routine. I'm sure the law firms love it.

There's a galaxy of differnce from hitting someone with a bat, to shooting and killing them with a gun.
 
Carl, no disrespect meant, by the way... below, I may use words like "absurd" or "fantasy", but I do not mean to impeach you personally, only a specific and narrow point - that when the intentions and results of justifiable "crimes" occur, the legal consequences are the same irrespective of the platform (and might even be more serious, with respect to intent, for blunt trauma)... thus given the legal option and the unquestionable efficacy of firearms over bats, one should think hard before opting for the latter.

There are some people who by geography, or other reason, cannot have a firearm. I very much doubt you will have yours if you get on a plane and land in New York or London, or Washington D.C., San Fransisco or....
Despite this all of your following text contrasts not the legal availability of a gun to a blunt instrument, but its efficacy as an alternative. To that end, it's an absurdity with which you're stacking all the variables into a neat little fantasy.

Crimes are punished based on intent and results. These definitions are either statutorily fixed or rest in a large and old body of common law not likely to change merely because of your individual circumstances. The jury's range of discretion is far more limited than you proffer. If we are to do a fair comparison, it must be like for like, not your absurd examples where the biddy ends up before an unsympathetic jury while your fantasy baseball bat ninja deftly slinks away unreported.

The lowest level of defense is deterrence. A gun on the biddy's hip or a reputation for carrying will do more for her than her cane will. If anything, the latter marks her as infirmed and prey that can neither escape or give chase.

The next level of defense which can give rise to offense is brandishing. Once again, brandishing a firearm is a greater deterrence to any marginally rationally minded criminal than waving a cane around. If the criminal is not rationally minded at all, then deterrence is irrelevant irrespective of your weapon choice. If the criminal has some special knowledge that biddy would be willing to cane him, but not shoot and therefore attacks when he sees the gun but not a cane, he might have a rational reason, but biddy does not.

The legal consequences of shooting and using a weapon that legally constitutes deadly force is identical in an assault, manslaughter, or murder. Whether she brandishes, assaults, or kills. For a lay-person to effectively stop with a blunt instrument, requires more aggression than a firearm. The first blow must be decisive or the subsequent blows must make up for the shortage. The same can be said of firearms, however, repeated shots are routinely disclaimed in court more effectively than repeated blows. The jury has more freedom to question the intentionality of trigger pulls than baton swings. Repeated blows is the textbook example of malice which can factor into intent even if the result (death) with either weapon is the same.

In the use of force continuum, blunt instruments are only a shade under firearms because of their capacity for death or permanent injury (and again, because of the intentionality built into their usage), and gambling on that slight distinction as reason to justify the less effective weapon is both fool hearty and what antis do to justify gun bans. Even law enforcement, who are trained in the force continuum, routinely make mistakes in which to use... is it any wonder that most nightsticks have been phased out and ASP training is less emphasized than tasers or OC.

I've noticed that among people in CCW states, too often the only responce they can come up with is the "pull my gun and shoot them" routine. I'm sure the law firms love it.
Hah, I live in Jersey. Until recently, we had one of the least forgiving Castle Doctrines in the nation (for example, an abused spouse would not be able to resort to self-defense unless literally backed into a wall... if she defended herself in an open area like the living room, she would not be entitled to argue self-defense). In fact, it's the reverse. The more adverse a state is to gun ownership, the more likely they are to perceive and statutorily codify other items or improvised objects as weapons constituting deadly force.

One should not kid themselves into believing non-firearms are somehow "innocent" before the law. If the result is the same, it's the same. If you justifiably brandish a gun to prevent a crime, you face exactly the same charges someone waving a bat does. The same if you assault or kill. And frankly, if you really believe you're in such great peril of random crime, you might as well use the gun so we can get the good press... otherwise, antis are fully justified in saying we can defend ourselves otherwise.

In terms of practical effects... certainly guns are more effective stoppers, which is why police & military use them and why we fight so hard for our right to have them, as opposed to our right to practice kung-fu.

Again, all of the above presumes the gun is a legal alternative, which is what you debated. If it is not a legal alternative, you can elect to follow a moral imperative or do your best within the confines of the law, but that has nothing to do with the legal consequences of a gun v. improvised weapon.
 
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If you're contemplating a bat either as a covert means of self-defense or as a way of dealing less-than-lethal trauma over a firearm... those are bad reasons.

If otherwise disarmed, then you do the best with what you can, but improvised weaponry aren't more "innocent" legally than items traditionally deemed weapons.

Excellent points, but speaking for myself, less than lethal isn't the idea. If someone invades my home, there are no "less-than-lethal" options, nor am I particularly interested in implementing any outside of a dog as a warning system, and maybe a one-time, non-negotiable, immediately complied with "Get out of my house right now" (situations may vary on the verbal warning".

I think what we are saying, generally, is that in a self-defense situation it does in fact look better if your using ye olden Louisville Slugger v. a two-handed viking broadsword. Of course you are right: Dead is dead is dead, and it don't much matter how you got there. In the eyes of a jury, a bat is a weapon of opportunity, a sword is a pre-meditated implement of death. Mas Ayoob has commented several times on perception being the key to a verdict in cases he was involved with, and a bat has a relatively low "threat" perception.
 
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