Looking at ARs for hunting. What to know?

[Shawn Dodson]

Can you buy ammo for it? Or do you have to load your own?

Factory loaded ammo is available from Sharps Rifle Company.

I also neck up .223/5.56 cases and handload .25-45. Easy peasy

 

[CraigC]

What do you mean by marginal? My opinion is that it's just a little on the small side. But I have seen evidence it works on deer, and it obviously works on similar sized mammals, as per the military, so I wouldn't be completely opposed to using it. I'd just rather have something that I KNOW can punch through 2 shoulders without an issue.

I mean marginal. IMHO, it's a lot on the small side. The reasons the military chose it are entirely irrelevant. I don't even like 6mm's.

 

[bearcreek]

What do you mean by marginal? My opinion is that it's just a little on the small side.

How many deer have you killed, roughly? Just curious. A person can find all manner of ridiculous claims on the internet. They do not constitute "evidence".

 

[Sanderguy777]

How many deer have you killed, roughly? Just curious. A person can find all manner of ridiculous claims on the internet. They do not constitute "evidence".

I've shot 2. One with either a .338 lapua or 7mm (this was my first one, a nubbn. He didn't move after the first shot, just stood there like a deer in the headlights, so we thought we missed, and so I shot with my friends .338. We still don't know which one actually did him in.) The second was with a 7mm.

I'm not saying it can't kill a deer, just that I personally prefer to stay towards the more powerful side of the spectrum.

 

[bearcreek]

I've shot 2. One with either a .338 lapua or 7mm (this was my first one, a nubbn. He didn't move after the first shot, just stood there like a deer in the headlights, so we thought we missed, and so I shot with my friends .338. We still don't know which one actually did him in.) The second was with a 7mm.

I'm not saying it can't kill a deer, just that I personally prefer to stay towards the more powerful side of the spectrum.

I see. I misunderstood you then. I thought you were disagreeing with Craig C's assessment of the .223 as marginal. I've never killed a deer with a .223, but I've killed 100+ big game animals (whitetails and elk) with a variety of weapons and I would lean toward agreeing with him. On the other hand, I am of the opinion that you can go too big (.338 would fall in that category) and unnecessarily waste meat. The rounds you're talking about using fall within that sweet spot though, so that's good. (I will say again though that you'd be better off just getting a bolt action for hunting)

 

[Sanderguy777]

I see. I misunderstood you then. I thought you were disagreeing with Craig C's assessment of the .223 as marginal. I've never killed a deer with a .223, but I've killed 100+ big game animals (whitetails and elk) with a variety of weapons and I would lean toward agreeing with him. On the other hand, I am of the opinion that you can go too big (.338 would fall in that category) and unnecessarily waste meat. The rounds you're talking about using fall within that sweet spot though, so that's good. (I will say again though that you'd be better off just getting a bolt action for hunting)

I think 7mm rem mag is on the overkill (meat wasting) end, unless you're out there 300+ yards. .338 is definitely past tye sweet spot LOL.

And yeah, I'm kinda thinking about just getting a bolt gun and then a PSA upper and lower for as cheap as possible. Then I get the fun gun and the one I need. And I won't be hindered by the action length.

 

[Varminterror]

@Sanderguy777 - just a couple of simple truths which might offer some clarity in your calculus, since it seems you’re spinning a little here from having too many options.

1) For deer hunting with an AR, don’t get a 223/5.56. It’s like walking into a hardware store with a need to drive nails and then buying a pair of pliers. Yes, I can drive nails with a pair of pliers, and I have, and I’m sure I will again, but when it comes to buying something with thoughtful intention, pliers are the wrong tool for the job. I have killed deer with 223/5.56 rifles, but again, it is the wrong tool for the job. For a factory ammo shooter, pick one of 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 300 blk, 6.8 SPC, 350 Leg, or 450 Bush - in that order, based first on on-game performance, compounded by the secondary parameter of ammo and component availability.

2) Lots of folks like to say online that “your first AR should be a 5.56/223,” or “if you have an AR, you should have a 223/5.56 upper” as justification that every AR owner should have a 223/5.56, but there really is no logic to these claims. If you have a purpose for owning a 223/5.56 AR upper, then you should have a 223/5.56 upper - if you don’t, then you shouldn’t. Pretty simple. For your purposes, it sounds like buying a 223/5.56 upper as additional expense to your hunting upper really isn’t pertinent. If you don’t actually have need for it, don’t buy it. Just buy the upper you need for the task you’re pursuing.

3) There’s nothing wrong with buying a factory model, and also nothing wrong an economic strategy to buy a factory model and pay someone to change the barrel. Not every AR owner needs to be an AR builder. If building AR’s interests you, great, but don’t let yourself get pressured into building when you’d rather just buy a turnkey option. I have a wheel machine sitting behind my garage, but I haven’t changed my own truck tires in almost 20yrs. I pay someone else to change my tires with a smile on my face. I COULD save a little money to do it myself, but not enough to be worth my time. So if a factory model suits your needs, or a factory model is VERY close but needs a new barrel, bolt, and mags to be perfect for your needs, and is within ~$200 of what you think you could build on your own, then just buy it. You’ll easily find someone local who can swap the barrel, likely for free, or a smith who would do it for a very low cost. *Worst case, mail the upper and barrel to me with prepaid shipping labels and I’ll swap it for free.

 

[bearcreek]

And yeah, I'm kinda thinking about just getting a bolt gun and then a PSA upper and lower for as cheap as possible. Then I get the fun gun and the one I need. And I won't be hindered by the action length.

On the bolt action. On the AR, you do, to an extent, get what you pay for. If it is indeed just a "fun" gun, going cheap is fine. Quality doesn't matter, since it's essentially a toy. If it's a 2A gun, (being a necessary part of the security of a free state) and you intend to get some good training and practice with it, then quality most certainly does matter.

 

[Sanderguy777]

@Sanderguy777 - just a couple of simple truths which might offer some clarity in your calculus, since it seems you’re spinning a little here from having too many options.

1) For deer hunting with an AR, don’t get a 223/5.56. It’s like walking into a hardware store with a need to drive nails and then buying a pair of pliers. Yes, I can drive nails with a pair of pliers, and I have, and I’m sure I will again, but when it comes to buying something with thoughtful intention, pliers are the wrong tool for the job. I have killed deer with 223/5.56 rifles, but again, it is the wrong tool for the job. For a factory ammo shooter, pick one of 6mm ARC, 6.5 Grendel, 300 blk, 6.8 SPC, 350 Leg, or 450 Bush - in that order, based first on on-game performance, compounded by the secondary parameter of ammo and component availability.

2) Lots of folks like to say online that “your first AR should be a 5.56/223,” or “if you have an AR, you should have a 223/5.56 upper” as justification that every AR owner should have a 223/5.56, but there really is no logic to these claims. If you have a purpose for owning a 223/5.56 AR upper, then you should have a 223/5.56 upper - if you don’t, then you shouldn’t. Pretty simple. For your purposes, it sounds like buying a 223/5.56 upper as additional expense to your hunting upper really isn’t pertinent. If you don’t actually have need for it, don’t buy it. Just buy the upper you need for the task you’re pursuing.

3) There’s nothing wrong with buying a factory model, and also nothing wrong an economic strategy to buy a factory model and pay someone to change the barrel. Not every AR owner needs to be an AR builder. If building AR’s interests you, great, but don’t let yourself get pressured into building when you’d rather just buy a turnkey option. I have a wheel machine sitting behind my garage, but I haven’t changed my own truck tires in almost 20yrs. I pay someone else to change my tires with a smile on my face. I COULD save a little money to do it myself, but not enough to be worth my time. So if a factory model suits your needs, or a factory model is VERY close but needs a new barrel, bolt, and mags to be perfect for your needs, and is within ~$200 of what you think you could build on your own, then just buy it. You’ll easily find someone local who can swap the barrel, likely for free, or a smith who would do it for a very low cost. *Worst case, mail the upper and barrel to me with prepaid shipping labels and I’ll swap it for free.

Thanks!
1. I was thinking about .223 as a primary hunting cartridge as a starter, then upgrading, but you're right, it's like using a 6oz ball peen hammer when you have a 16 penny nail and a 24oz framing hammer sitting on the workbench LOL.

2. It would be a fun gun. Mostly just because I can get really cheap ammo. .22lr only gets so much adrenaline going, ya know?

3. The factory model is so I'd have experience taking the thing apart and understand the workings. It's not a huge issue since I can go on youtube and watch YEARS worth of videos on the subject but it's nice to have real experience with things before you try and out something together that literally contains explosions LOL.

I will agree with others that a bolt gun is better for what I'm doing. Not that an AR isn't capable, but semi auto isn't necessary, and a bolt gun is more accurate for the money.

On the bolt action. On the AR, you do, to an extent, get what you pay for. If it is indeed just a "fun" gun, going cheap is fine. Quality doesn't matter, since it's essentially a toy. If it's a 2A gun, (being a necessary part of the security of a free state) and you intend to get some good training and practice with it, then quality most certainly does matter.

It's just a fun toy that costs a lot of money LOL. Out of curiosity, how much would a 2A gun need to cost to be good enough?

 

[bearcreek]

Out of curiosity, how much would a 2A gun need to cost to be good enough?

You'll get tons of variety of opinions on that one. Mine is that the low end is roughly $1200 for rifle and optic. A person should also plan to spend at least $500-600 on training and about the same on ammo the first year. I do recognize that that isn't realistic for everyone, but it is still a good idea, if it can be done. Too many Americans own the "hardware" (the guns) but don't have the "software" (the training).

 

[Sanderguy777]

You'll get tons of variety of opinions on that one. Mine is that the low end is roughly $1200 for rifle and optic. A person should also plan to spend at least $500-600 on training and about the same on ammo the first year. I do recognize that that isn't realistic for everyone, but it is still a good idea, if it can be done. Too many Americans own the "hardware" (the guns) but don't have the "software" (the training).

Ok, that makes sense. Again, not the intended use, but it might push me towards a better gun. If that's the price difference for more reliability and accuracy (or reliable accuracy maybe), then that's worth it.

 

[Varminterror]

The factory model is so I'd have experience taking the thing apart and understand the workings.

Guys talk about this a lot, but it’s really not a real thing. You won’t take apart anything with a factory rifle which you would be assembling with a piece-built AR, unless you make the mistake of buying the wrong AR for your needs and continuously waste money replacing parts. We hammer in a few pins, stake on the buffer tube, slip in the detents… it’s not rocket science, it’s under an hour of just raw assembly. Whether you build or buy, you’ll be doing the same maintenance during ownership. But buying a factory rifle precludes a need to understand how to BUILD an AR, rather than simply assembling one. So when a factory rifle doesn’t feed on the first outing, you take it back and get it fixed. When your kitchen table build doesn’t run, you have to figure it out for yourself - which is kinda like teaching yourself to play trombone…

 

[Sanderguy777]

Guys talk about this a lot, but it’s really not a real thing. You won’t take apart anything with a factory rifle which you would be assembling with a piece-built AR, unless you make the mistake of buying the wrong AR for your needs and continuously waste money replacing parts. We hammer in a few pins, stake on the buffer tube, slip in the detents… it’s not rocket science, it’s under an hour of just raw assembly. Whether you build or buy, you’ll be doing the same maintenance during ownership. But buying a factory rifle precludes a need to understand how to BUILD an AR, rather than simply assembling one. So when a factory rifle doesn’t feed on the first outing, you take it back and get it fixed. When your kitchen table build doesn’t run, you have to figure it out for yourself - which is kinda like teaching yourself to play trombone…

Yeah, that's true. It's not really applicable anyway, since I wouldn't take it apart without watching a video on how it works. But it would give me good experience on what the parts act like when correctly assembled.

 

[Varminterror]

Yeah, that's true. It's not really applicable anyway, since I wouldn't take it apart without watching a video on how it works. But it would give me good experience on what the parts act like when correctly assembled.

Maybe… only if we are correct in assuming a factory rifle will run properly.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Maybe… only if we are correct in assuming a factory rifle will run properly.

I mean, that's literally what I'd be paying them for. And if not, then I would be going back and asking for help, or just searching for solutions online, the same as if I built one myself.

If I do get one it will be a while, and I'll have a better idea of what I want.

 

[Varminterror]

I mean, that's literally what I'd be paying them for.

And most commonly, you get what you pay for.

I had a business for several years building and rebuilding AR’s. A branded box isn’t a guarantee of function out of the box, so someone new to the AR may find themselves online reading BS from other misguided children which say things like “it takes a few hundred rounds to break one in,” or “just try a different mag” as a solution to obviously unrelated problems…

 

[Sanderguy777]

And most commonly, you get what you pay for.

I had a business for several years building and rebuilding AR’s. A branded box isn’t a guarantee of function out of the box, so someone new to the AR may find themselves online reading BS from other misguided children which say things like “it takes a few hundred rounds to break one in,” or “just try a different mag” as a solution to obviously unrelated problems…

That's true.

 

[d2wing]

Based on my experience I recommend Del-Ton, and .223 is a deer killer if you are a good shot and good hunter.

 

[d2wing]

Double post

 

[drobs]

I don't necessarily disagree with what Varminterror is saying. If you would rather start with a different caliber for hunting, go for it. I still believe you should have a 5.56 AR15 in your collection.

Understand though, slapping a complete upper on a complete lower is not the same as building a rifle. There are 2 captive take down pins on the lower that you push. Then you attach the upper to the lower and snap those pins back in. That's all there is to it. If you can change a magazine on a handgun you can put a complete upper on a complete lower.

Even building a complete AR15 from parts is not that difficult if you are using a complete upper. I've assembled a bunch of them and still will refresh myself by watching a youtube video on assembling the trigger, hammer, disconnector group.


@Sangerguy777 where in Missouri are you located? If you want to make drive, I'll let shoot a couple of my AR15's. I live between Gainesville and Branson Missouri. If you live way out, I'll meet you 1/2 way.

 

[Sanderguy777]

I don't necessarily disagree with what Varminterror is saying. If you would rather start with a different caliber for hunting, go for it. I still believe you should have a 5.56 AR15 in your collection.

Understand though, slapping a complete upper on a complete lower is not the same as building a rifle. There are 2 captive take down pins on the lower that you push. Then you attach the upper to the lower and snap those pins back in. That's all there is to it. If you can change a magazine on a handgun you can put a complete upper on a complete lower.

Even building a complete AR15 from parts is not that difficult if you are using a complete upper. I've assembled a bunch of them and still will refresh myself by watching a youtube video on assembling the trigger, hammer, disconnector group.


@Sangerguy777 where in Missouri are you located? If you want to make drive, I'll let shoot a couple of my AR15's. I live between Gainesville and Branson Missouri. If you live way out, I'll meet you 1/2 way.

I think I'll probably end up with a bolt gun in 6.5 creedmoor (it's cheaper than other common ammo at the moment, and it is definitely capable of 300 yard work.) Then I might be able to squeeze an AR out of my budget too. Definitely a 5.56, simply because the ammo is so cheap, and the price of other caliber ARs is higher, from what I've seen.

That's good info.

Wow! Thanks for the offer! I would be within a couple hour's drive from you, so I may take you up on that offer. I have yet to actually move there yet, and I'll have to get my feet under me first, but thanks for the offer! Out of curiosity, where do you shoot, and is it really a sub-200 yard hunting state? (Or at least the Southern part.)

 

[12Bravo20]

Shots will definitely fall in the 200 and under range in southern Missouri. 100 yards or less is common in the really hilly and heavily wooded areas. This includes the Ozark's and the hill country along the major rivers across the state. Once you get north of the Missouri River then things open up quite a bit.

We now have an elk and black bear season. But the MDC (department of conservation) only issues a very small number of permits for each by lottery draw. We have plenty of white tail deer across the state. Deer will definitely tend to be bigger in the northern part of the state compared to the southern part.

223 is legal for hunting deer in Missouri but years ago that was not the case. Here is a link the MDC webpage on deer hunting. https://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/species/deer
MDC also now allows the use of 410 slugs for deer.

I built my 6.8 SPC AR years ago for deer hunting and I built my 6mm ARC for both target shooting and hunting purposes. It is hard on me to shoot 308 or bigger calibers anymore due to being disabled and having arthritis and fibromyalgia so I stick to smaller calibers that will still ethically take deer.

 

[Sanderguy777]

Shots will definitely fall in the 200 and under range in southern Missouri. 100 yards or less is common in the really hilly and heavily wooded areas. This includes the Ozark's and the hill country along the major rivers across the state. Once you get north of the Missouri River then things open up quite a bit.

We now have an elk and black bear season. But the MDC (department of conservation) only issues a very small number of permits for each by lottery draw. We have plenty of white tail deer across the state. Deer will definitely tend to be bigger in the northern part of the state compared to the southern part.

223 is legal for hunting deer in Missouri but years ago that was not the case. Here is a link the MDC webpage on deer hunting. https://mdc.mo.gov/hunting-trapping/species/deer
MDC also now allows the use of 410 slugs for deer.

I built my 6.8 SPC AR years ago for deer hunting and I built my 6mm ARC for both target shooting and hunting purposes. It is hard on me to shoot 308 or bigger calibers anymore due to being disabled and having arthritis and fibromyalgia so I stick to smaller calibers that will still ethically take deer.

Thanks! That's great info!

Yeah, I read up on it, and found that any centerfire is legal, but that hog hunting was frowned upon. Not sure what the point of open season and frowning upon something is though LOL (Maybe so farmers can deal with them on their own property?)

That's one of the reasons I like the 6.5CM. It has similar ballistics to the normal cartridges, but less recoil, and is less affected by wind, apparently. At <200 yards, idk that wind is even an issue, but it's good to know that it's not going to affect it as much. The 6mm ARC is also tempting, but I think it's going to be an AR build later.

 

[drobs]

I think I'll probably end up with a bolt gun in 6.5 creedmoor (it's cheaper than other common ammo at the moment, and it is definitely capable of 300 yard work.) Then I might be able to squeeze an AR out of my budget too. Definitely a 5.56, simply because the ammo is so cheap, and the price of other caliber ARs is higher, from what I've seen.

That's good info.

Wow! Thanks for the offer! I would be within a couple hour's drive from you, so I may take you up on that offer. I have yet to actually move there yet, and I'll have to get my feet under me first, but thanks for the offer! Out of curiosity, where do you shoot, and is it really a sub-200 yard hunting state? (Or at least the Southern part.)

I have a 25yd range in my backyard but could stretch out to 200yds or so on the private road in front of my house.
Otherwise I'll hit one of the many free Missouri Department of Conservation ranges through out the state.

My neighbor is a member of this range that has 800yds. It's about a 2 hour drive north east of me.

Big Piney Sportsman's Club | Houston, MO

bigpineysportsmansclub.com

I might join in the future.

Re hog hunting - it's still legal on private land. The Department of Conservation made it illegal on state land / the National Forest. Their reasoning is they are trying to trap them and shoot them from their new Helicopter. Instead of letting hunters hunt them in the National Forest, where they will spread out. I haven't looked into it recently, but last I read they weren't very successful using their shinny new helicopter.

 

[12Bravo20]

eah, I read up on it, and found that any centerfire is legal, but that hog hunting was frowned upon. Not sure what the point of open season and frowning upon something is though LOL (Maybe so farmers can deal with them on their own property?)

The MDC has banned hog hunting on public lands because they found that hunting tends to scatter the hearts of feral hogs. At least that is the reason they give.

For those interested, here is what MDC says about feral hogs: https://mdc.mo.gov/wildlife/invasive-animals/feral-hogs-missouri