Looking at ARs for hunting. What to know?

[InTheSwamp]

Are those the Florida regs?

yes

Wild Hog

Wild Hog

myfwc.com

 

[mavracer]

I love that stock! Ok, maybe I'll take another look at .350L. I think that 6mm ARC is a better option for ballistics, but it is so new, it probably doesn't have as many bullet options from factory ammo.

All the rounds available to fit in an AR15 are a compromise of one thing or another.
The 6mm ARC, 6.5 G and 6.8 SPC are all real close for all practical purposes in yhe field they'll give a little more range than the bigger bores will.
No matter what you choose just know the limitations. Hunting with a 223/5.56 is no different than any other self imposed limitations like handgun or muzzleloader.

Yeah, I understand, I was just joking. I mean, what I said is true, but I do understand that they are great bullets, and give advantages to you that a cheapo one doesn't.

When you put a self imposed limit by using a marginal caliber, premium bullets can hedge your bet so to speak. With a simple 150gr 30-06 cup and core bullet even if it spits the jacket off the core is heavy enough to still penetrate deeply, you don't have that luxury with a 60-75gr .224.

 

[Sanderguy777]

All the rounds available to fit in an AR15 are a compromise of one thing or another.
The 6mm ARC, 6.5 G and 6.8 SPC are all real close for all practical purposes in yhe field they'll give a little more range than the bigger bores will.
No matter what you choose just know the limitations. Hunting with a 223/5.56 is no different than any other self imposed limitations like handgun or muzzleloader.

When you put a self imposed limit by using a marginal caliber, premium bullets can hedge your bet so to speak. With a simple 150gr 30-06 cup and core bullet even if it spits the jacket off the core is heavy enough to still penetrate deeply, you don't have that luxury with a 60-75gr .224.

Makes sense.

 

[LimaCharlie]

Alexander Arms AR-15 in 50 Beowulf.

 

[Varminterror]

maybe I'll take another look at .350L. I think that 6mm ARC is a better option for ballistics, but it is so new, it probably doesn't have as many bullet options from factory ammo.

This is kinda upside down. The 350L is only a year older than the 6mm ARC, but unlike the ARC, the 350L does not use a common, readily available bullet diameter nor does it have a common velocity potential which aligns with a broad market of readily available bullets - AND the 350L does not have the backing of a company with vastly superior supply chain reputation as does the ARC…

 

[mavracer]

AND the 350L does not have the backing of a company with vastly superior supply chain reputation as does the ARC…

????
6mm ARC is only support so far is Hornady for ammo, 350 legend is supported by Hornady, Winchester, Federal and a couple other.

Not sure what the future holds but current supply chain definitely favors the Legend.

 

[12Bravo20]

Black Hills Ammo should start manufacturing and selling their own 6 ARC ammo soon. Their press release said sometime in 2023. And Starline is now making true 6 ARC brass for the public even though it is in limited quantities right now. I look for more companies to start producing 6mm ARC ammo as time goes by since the caliber is gaining traction with shooters.

 

[tarosean]

While I have not read this entire thread.. You must keep in mind that a number of states outlaw .223/556 for big game so check your local laws.

 

[12Bravo20]

While I have not read this entire thread.. You must keep in mind that a number of states outlaw .223/556 for big game so check your local laws.

The OP is moving to Missouri and it is legal to use 223/5.56 for deer.

 

[Varminterror]

While I have not read this entire thread.. You must keep in mind that a number of states outlaw .223/556 for big game so check your local laws.

I’ll try to find this, but within the last 2 years, I cataloged on this site a list of all states which prohibit 223 for deer, and there are actually VERY few states which remain to specifically prohibit 223 or 22cal centerfires - the list is essentially only states which prohibit centerfire rifles entirely.

A LOT has changed in the last 30yrs. Very, very few states which allow centerfire rifle hunting remain to actually prohibit 223.

 

[Sanderguy777]

This is kinda upside down. The 350L is only a year older than the 6mm ARC, but unlike the ARC, the 350L does not use a common, readily available bullet diameter nor does it have a common velocity potential which aligns with a broad market of readily available bullets - AND the 350L does not have the backing of a company with vastly superior supply chain reputation as does the ARC…

This is all true. However, in my research, 6mm ARC only has 3 options, and 2 are match bullets. I think 6mm ARC is a better fit for my needs, but it is not nearly as common as .350L in rifles, either. I think it will catch on and become more popular, but for the moment, it seems more expensive, and has fewer options. (I do think I will get it sometime though).

????
6mm ARC is only support so far is Hornady for ammo, 350 legend is supported by Hornady, Winchester, Federal and a couple other.

Not sure what the future holds but current supply chain definitely favors the Legend.

That was my assessment as well.

Black Hills Ammo should start manufacturing and selling their own 6 ARC ammo soon. Their press release said sometime in 2023. And Starline is now making true 6 ARC brass for the public even though it is in limited quantities right now. I look for more companies to start producing 6mm ARC ammo as time goes by since the caliber is gaining traction with shooters.

This was my hope as well. Seems like a really good option, just needs a few years to gain more users.

While I have not read this entire thread.. You must keep in mind that a number of states outlaw .223/556 for big game so check your local laws.

MO says any centerfire is fine. But that is true.

I’ll try to find this, but within the last 2 years, I cataloged on this site a list of all states which prohibit 223 for deer, and there are actually VERY few states which remain to specifically prohibit 223 or 22cal centerfires - the list is essentially only states which prohibit centerfire rifles entirely.

A LOT has changed in the last 30yrs. Very, very few states which allow centerfire rifle hunting remain to actually prohibit 223.

Interesting.

 

[mavracer]

This is all true. However, in my research, 6mm ARC only has 3 options, and 2 are match bullets. I think 6mm ARC is a better fit for my needs, but it is not nearly as common as .350L in rifles, either. I think it will catch on and become more popular, but for the moment, it seems more expensive, and has fewer options. (I do think I will get it sometime though).

I would have thought the 6mm ARC would have had more support by now, it really is a sweet cartridge. I think some of the difference comes from being late to the party and it's a crowded field with some well established rounds.

 

[Show Me]

Burst my bubble!? That killed the whole idea LOL.

Ok, then moving to the POF-USA, is it as reliable as the IWI? Is it also totally compatible with the other ar15 mil-spec options?

I got interested in ar's when Remington said "30 AR, the power of a .308 in your AR 15". Boy was that a letdown

 

[Varminterror]

6mm ARC only has 3 options, and 2 are match bullets.

Just sharing some personal experiences - this is what “match bullets” like those used in the 6 ARC factory ammo will do to deer hearts…

 

[mcb]

I got interested in ar's when Remington said "30 AR, the power of a .308 in your AR 15". Boy was that a letdown

Why, I love my 30 Remington AR. Proprietary as hell and with Remington going belly up you're never going to see parts again but its been a great gun none-the-less.

Last years buck, dropped in his tracks after a head on, top of the neck, shot from a 150gr Corlokt from my 30 Remington AR.

My current AR chamberings, 22 LR, 223 Rem/5.56x45mm, 300 AAC Blackout, 30 Remington AR, 450 Bushmaster.
And you have to admit 30 RAR is a cute little cartridge. I have done nearly all my hunting with an AR for the past few years though never with a 223/556 gun. There are so many fun cartridges you can stuff in to an AR platform. You can do all your hunting with and AR if you wanted.

 

[Sanderguy777]

I would have thought the 6mm ARC would have had more support by now, it really is a sweet cartridge. I think some of the difference comes from being late to the party and it's a crowded field with some well established rounds.

Yeah, I think 6.5 CM has been around almost 15 years, to the 6mm's 3. It has TONS of options, and I think the 6mm is only going to follow that path. My fear is that the gun I got wouldn't like the ammo available, and I'd be forced to sell the gun, or start reloading with no supply of anything LOL

I got interested in ar's when Remington said "30 AR, the power of a .308 in your AR 15". Boy was that a letdown

What did you transition to?

Just sharing some personal experiences - this is what “match bullets” like those used in the 6 ARC factory ammo will do to deer hearts…

View attachment 1166239

View attachment 1166240

I mean, if you got hit by a 100 grain chunk of ice at 2k fps, I'd expect it to do some damage too. I don't know what the difference between match and hunting bullets is, so I have no comparison if that is adequate damage or not (presumably it was, or you found another deer to do a heart donation LOL).
I have no doubt thec6mm would handle a deer, but I'd be interested in what range this was, and a comparison to other bullets' damage before I used match ammo instead of hunting. (Especially whether match handle bones and such as well.)

Why, I love my 30 Remington AR. Proprietary as hell and with Remington going belly up you're never going to see parts again but its been a great gun none-the-less.
View attachment 1166242
Last years buck, dropped in his tracks after a head on, top of the neck, shot from a 150gr Corlokt from my 30 Remington AR.
View attachment 1166243
My current AR chamberings, 22 LR, 223 Rem/5.56x45mm, 300 AAC Blackout, 30 Remington AR, 450 Bushmaster.
And you have to admit 30 RAR is a cute little cartridge. I have done nearly all my hunting with an AR for the past few years though never with a 223/556 gun. There are so many fun cartridges you can stuff in to an AR platform. You can do all your hunting with and AR if you wanted.

Yeah, I'm definitely interested, but the Tikka is nice too. Barrels seem to cost more though...

 

[Varminterror]

I'd be interested in what range this was, and a comparison to other bullets' damage

The first was a 6mm 105grn BTHP impacting at 2510fps while the second was a 6.5 Grendel 123 ELD impacting at ~2500fps.

This is MORE damage than typically seen from conventional cup & core lead soft point hunting bullets, because most hunting bullets have the misguided belief that dumping half of their horsepower into the dirt is a good thing. I’ve put literally hundreds of deer on the ground in literally dozens of states - the hoopla about match vs. hunting bullets is just online dumbassery.

 

[Sanderguy777]

The first was a 6mm 105grn BTHP impacting at 2510fps while the second was a 6.5 Grendel 123 ELD impacting at ~2500fps.

This is MORE damage than typically seen from conventional cup & core lead soft point hunting bullets, because most hunting bullets have the misguided belief that dumping half of their horsepower into the dirt is a good thing. I’ve put literally hundreds of deer on the ground in literally dozens of states - the hoopla about match vs. hunting bullets is just online dumbassery.

Oh, ok. I thought both were the same heart. I just read the label and go with the one that says it does what I need.

 

[BushMaster-15]

Missouri also has a hunter safety requirement. However, I hear folks are still able to get deer tags without it. I moved here in 2010 and at the time I could get free land owner tags (without having Hunter Safety) for having 10 acres. MO raised the acreage minimum not long ago. The result of which I needed to take the Hunter Safety course. I'd recommend it to new hunters.

Curious if that includes Active or Ex Military ?.

 

[12Bravo20]

Curious if that includes Active or Ex Military ?.

From what I could find, yes active duty and veterans must still pass the hunter safety course if they were born on or after Jan 1, 1967. Active duty members stationed in Missouri do qualify for resident permits. And veterans with a VA disability rating of at least 60% or higher do not need a fishing permit or small game hunting permit. Disabled veterans are still required to purchase special permits such as trout permits, deer and turkey tags and migratory bird hunting stamps though.

Here are the veteran and military benefits through MDC
https://mdc.mo.gov/permits/veteran-benefits

And hunter safety course information.

https://www.hunter-ed.com/missouri/

 

[BushMaster-15]

Oh, ok. I thought both were the same heart. I just read the label and go with the one that says it does what I need.

IMO ; Weight retention is a BIG factor . Some bullet designs are subject to shearing ,thus pedals are Not in the bullets mass .
It's very hard to beat a Nosler Partition . With some States restricting lead ( totally ridiculous IMO ) Barnes TSX & LRX are excellent substitutions . Barnes can be FINICKY reloading with respect to distance off the lands in some rifles but generally make MOD in nearly all hunting scenarios .

 

[Sanderguy777]

IMO ; Weight retention is a BIG factor . Some bullet designs are subject to shearing ,thus pedals are Not in the bullets mass .
It's very hard to beat a Nosler Partition . With some States restricting lead ( totally ridiculous IMO ) Barnes TSX & LRX are excellent substitutions . Barnes can be FINICKY reloading with respect to distance off the lands in some rifles but generally make MOD in nearly all hunting scenarios .

Thanks. No lead issue in MO that I'm aware of. But I'll try that bullet for sure.

I do have a question though. Regardless of the caliber I choose, is there a reason to try to shoot behind the shoulder of the animal? Or is it always better to just blast the shoulder? Obviously, you lose some meat, but you have a better chance of blowing up all the important bits.

The other question is, other than non-lead requirements, is there an advantage to mono bullets at sub 300 yard ranges? Core-lokt and the others have been taking deer for decades at those ranges. Is it penetration, or do they work better somehow? (All the hunting I did before was "oh, this is cheap," so I'm trying to learn as much as I can now.)

 

[mavracer]

I do have a question though. Regardless of the caliber I choose, is there a reason to try to shoot behind the shoulder of the animal? Or is it always better to just blast the shoulder? Obviously, you lose some meat, but you have a better chance of blowing up all the important bits.

It would be best to do a little research on your own of the anatomy of game. Having a 3D understanding would let you know where the vitals are in relation to the scapula.

The other question is, other than non-lead requirements, is there an advantage to mono bullets at sub 300 yard ranges? Core-lokt and the others have been taking deer for decades at those ranges. Is it penetration, or do they work better somehow? (All the hunting I did before was "oh, this is cheap," so I'm trying to learn as much as I can now.)

Again bullet weight/velocities must be considered with regard to construction.
The advantage of more modern designs like monolithic bullets is "controlled" expansion and weight retention over a wider range of velocities.
Obviously weight retention is more critical with a 55gr bullet than it is with a 200gr bullet. Same with expansion smaller diameter bullets rely more on it.

 

[Sanderguy777]

It would be best to do a little research on your own of the anatomy of game. Having a 3D understanding would let you know where the vitals are in relation to the scapula.

Again bullet weight/velocities must be considered with regard to construction.
The advantage of more modern designs like monolithic bullets is "controlled" expansion and weight retention over a wider range of velocities.
Obviously weight retention is more critical with a 55gr bullet than it is with a 200gr bullet. Same with expansion smaller diameter bullets rely more on it.

I definitely need to work on getting a better understanding of their anatomy.


Ok, that makes sense.

 

[zdc1775]

Thanks. No lead issue in MO that I'm aware of. But I'll try that bullet for sure.

I do have a question though. Regardless of the caliber I choose, is there a reason to try to shoot behind the shoulder of the animal? Or is it always better to just blast the shoulder? Obviously, you lose some meat, but you have a better chance of blowing up all the important bits.

The other question is, other than non-lead requirements, is there an advantage to mono bullets at sub 300 yard ranges? Core-lokt and the others have been taking deer for decades at those ranges. Is it penetration, or do they work better somehow? (All the hunting I did before was "oh, this is cheap," so I'm trying to learn as much as I can now.)

Personally, I always try to shoot deer in the upper neck (I know most people don't think that's ethical because it's too easy to miss or wound, but I have had excellent success with it for the last 20 or so years) since that wastes almost no meat and basically always results in an immediate drop. But that being said, that is more of a specialist shot placement and behind the shoulder is a much easier shot into much larger vitals.

For using mono vs cup and core bullets, I made that move several years ago when my 223 Wyle AR became my primary deer rifle. With the 64 gr cup and core bullets I was using before I felt that any shots into the "boiler room" (heart and lungs) beyond around 125 yards and I was getting subpar performance (still expanding nicely but normally not through and through, which helps with blood trails) so I started looking into more premium bullets, that lead me to the 60 gr Nosler Partition and the 55 and 62 gr Barnes TTSX's. At that time, the TTSX was available for around $30 per 50 vs $40 per 50 for the Partition so I went with those and they both shot great in my gun and had amazing performance on game. In my opinion, those bullets converted my lowly 223 from a 125-150 yards gun to a 250 yard one. Now given that about 75% if the deer I kill get shot in the neck at less than 125 yards any bullet, even cast lead, would work just fine for those, but for that 25% that are shot at longer ranges or shot in the heart/lungs the premium bullets give me a bit more margin of error.