mistake on BATF 4473 means no gun?

[Zundfolge]

Colorado is just not that picky about addresses on DLs ... in fact there's some lines on the back, if you move you write your new address on the back and you're legal.

The address on the front of my DL is the one from two addresses ago.

 

[Damien45]

My situation wasn't the same, but along the lines. I only incquired about the "how's" for California that involve:

Military w/ID and Orders
Out of State DL (Arizona)
Current CA Address

I was told, by 3 different stores the following:

Store #1: No, MUST have Valid CA DL. No Military ID accepted. (***?)
Store #2: I will get back to you..... (yeah, I would still be waiting if I had not found Store #3).
Store #3: No problem, just need copy of orders and ID to show you are living here. Use your Perm Address of Record is all.

I guess it all depends on who you ask.

 

[Frog48]

Last year I was buying a handgun at Cabelas, and I put my apartment address on the 4473 (I'm in college). The address on my DL is my parents house, which we still consider my permanent residence... the address I also use for fishing/hunting licenses, taxes, voter registration, etc.

They let me fill out another 4473 with my DL/parents address, they called it in again, and I was good to go.

 

[bogie]

okayfine. this time i'll use short words.

It's not the FFL's fault. It's not the person who filled the dang thing out's fault.

The fault is that some pencil pusher has terrorized (oops, that one's more than two syllables) FFLs around the country into a mindset that borders on... well... is... paranoia.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CAN FILL A 4473 OUT WITHOUT BLINKING TWICE.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SORT OF ID THE GUY WHO HAS KNOWN YOU FOR 20 YEARS REQUIRES.

And I don't care if you're in the miltary or not (but hey, if you're there, you probably "get" this).

The problem is that we have folks who are now afraid to use common sense to solve a paperwork problem.

Doom.

 

[Rumble]

I found this, in ATF Rul. 80-21:

An out-of-State college student may establish residence in a State by residing and maintaining a home in a college dormitory or in a location off-campus during the school term.

ATF Rul. 80-21

"State of residence" is defined by regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the
State in which an individual regularly resides or maintains a home. The
regulation also provides an example of an individual who maintains a home in
State X and a home in State Y. The individual regularly resides in State X
except for the summer months and in State Y for the summer months of the year. The regulation states that during the time the individual actually resides in State X he is a resident of State X, and during the time he actually resides
in State Y he is a resident of State Y.

Applying the above example to out-of-State college students it is held,
that during the time the students actually reside in a college dormitory or at
an of -campus location they are considered residents of the State where the
dormitory or off-campus home is located. During the time out-of-State college
students actually reside in their home State they are considered residents of
their home State.

(ATFB 1980 -4 25)

Thus, it looks like if the student in question attends school in a different state than the one in which the gun shop is located, and it's during the school year, the student might actually be unable to buy a firearm there (or a handgun, at least). I believe (but of course, I'm not a lawyer) that although 21 CFR 178.11 says that you "may" establish residence in the dormitory state, the ATF's position is that you are a resident while you're there.

So...the issue is somewhat larger--is the student then suddenly (and inadvertently) trying to buy a handgun in a state other than his state of residence? I have no idea.




This came up in another thread here...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=140786.

 

[TallPine]

okayfine. this time i'll use short words.

It's not the FFL's fault. It's not the person who filled the dang thing out's fault.

The fault is that some pencil pusher has terrorized (oops, that one's more than two syllables) FFLs around the country into a mindset that borders on... well... is... paranoia.

IT DOES NOT MATTER IF YOU CAN FILL A 4473 OUT WITHOUT BLINKING TWICE.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT SORT OF ID THE GUY WHO HAS KNOWN YOU FOR 20 YEARS REQUIRES.

And I don't care if you're in the miltary or not (but hey, if you're there, you probably "get" this).

The problem is that we have folks who are now afraid to use common sense to solve a paperwork problem.

Doom.

Yeah, well - but at least we are preventing felons from buying guns, unless of course they steal them from a citizen or a cop, or buy them on the "black market" - and we all know how hard it is to find drugs that way

 

[waterhouse]

Waterhouse, this is not entirely true. My DL has a p. o. box, and I fill out my forms with my physical address, never been denied yet.

Technically speaking, you should have been denied if you did not provide separate proof of physical residence.

Section 1 on the back of 4473 under "Instructions to Transferor/Seller" states:

Before a licensee may sell or deliver a firearm to a nonlicensee, the licensee must establish the identity, place of residence, and age of the buyer. The buyer must [emphasis not added, it is bold on the form] provide a valid government-issued photo identification to the seller that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth. . .

. . . A combination of government-issued documents may be provided. For example, if a U.S. citizen has two states of residence and is trying to buy an handgun in State X, he may provide a driver's license (showing his name, date of birth, and photograph) by State Y and another government issued document (such as a tax document) from State X showing his residence address.

If your DL does not show your correct, physical residence, you technically need some other form to prove that you live where you say you live.

Whether all dealers strictly enforce this rule, well, you never know.

 

[.cheese.]

I went through that one time. They gave me hell. It wasn't a dorm address, but rather a temporary address closer to my university (to live at until I'm done). I listed my parent's address because it's what is still on my DL. Same state and all.

They got really nervous and wanted to refuse me. They said I needed a state issued ID showing my temporary address. I explained that I'm only living there for a short time, and it's purely a secondary address. My parent's house is still my permanent address and it's only a short distance from my temp address.

Took a good hour to get it sorted.

Since then I list my parents' address and keep my mouth shut. I hadn't even listed my temp address last time, but when they asked, "do you live at this address now?" and I said, "well, I actually am living 'here' for the moment, but the other address is still my permanent address." - got their panties in a wad.

Best advice I can give is KISS.

Once I have a place that I intend to live at for more than a short period of time, I'll change that to be my permanent address, but as for the moment, it's easier just to list the folks' place.

 

[22-rimfire]

I use whatever address is on my drivers license. If I moved and had not gotten the DL changed, then I list the drivers license address. I suspect the authorities can figure it out if it ever mattered. Life is too short to make things so complicated.

I spent two years living in motels in Texas. What do you think my address was? I used my aunt's address for all business and legal correspondence. Never had a problem. I spent a couple years staying in a motel in KY, my legal address there was a PO box. I bought more than a couple guns during that time and used the PO box and the street address of the place I was staying. If I switched motels, then the street address changed, but not the PO box #.

 

[Aguila Blanca]

The fault is that some pencil pusher has terrorized (oops, that one's more than two syllables) FFLs around the country into a mindset that borders on... well... is... paranoia.

Yes, and it extends beyond the address issue, too.

I live in one of those states that requires every firearm to be equipped with a "suitable" lock when sold. No big deal -- most new guns come with one, and I can either take one to the shop to cover a used gun, or borrow one from the shop and return it after the gun is safely home. But ...

I just encountered a shop that has an entirely different view of it, apparently because they were brainwashed by a state trooper from the state's firearms compliance unit. They actually insist that the lock be INSTALLED ON THE GUN when it goes out their door. Not just in the box -- installed on the gun, and locked. I mentioned to them that there isn't another gun shop in the state that's doing this, and that at other shops if I've used their services to receive a firearm from out of state the FFL doesn't even worry about the lock because he's not the seller, it's already my gun and he's just bringing it into the state for me.

Nope -- their view is that the whole world is wrong and they're right.

 

[gezzer]

With the repecussions I have as an FFL, you don't have your Physical address on your ID or it is different than what is on your ID. The deal is over, see ya, fix YOUR!!!! problem. I am not going to jail for the profit on a sale PERIOD.

It is the Buyers problem not the FFL's. This is reality, don't like it go elswhere. Screw the sting artists.

 

[computerguysd]

For what it's worth...

Many states issue an official ID card that's not a driver's license. My drivers license has my REAL home address on it and matches my carry permit address while my state ID has my RENTAL apartment address on it. I've used both when purchasing firearms.

I do recieve mail at both locations and I did have to wait overnight for approval on one purchase before it cleared. The ID used on that purchase was the state ID with the rental address, but it still cleared. At the time, I was also registered to vote there and my credit card was billed to that address. However, that address didn't match my CCW permit.

I also have a gov't security clearance and the dual address thing "needed clarification" but I never had a problem once I documented it.

It looks like the main issue is having "official documentation" of a residence available. Since I really do have 2 residences, it makes sense to have both, if your state allows it. I originally got dual IDs to make it easier to write checks in both locations but it seems like it might be applicable here.

Now I just use the ID that matches where the credit card I use is billed to. That's likely the first check that's run.

I can be reached at either address, if they actually do a "deep check", like I needed for my security clearance.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[peyton]

It has been three days since our dissappointment, the S&W 332 still beckons!!! I am going to go by the gun shop today and buy the wannabe like big brother 642 for MYSELF. Somewhere along the way I got interested in the 32 H&R Mag, and have now got three in the family.
Thanks for all of the information concerning this topic, I will ensure that my son updates his Texas driver's license once he finishes AIT and returns from Iraq. Oh thats right he gets a full auto M-4 plus free ammo. I told him to shoot it all, I will reload more.

Peyton

 

[Jadecristal]

What is so holy about a piece of paper with the number 4473 on it, anyway? If you make a mistake while filling it out, before looking over it and signing it, then you made a mistake - you rip it up/shred it/tell the dealer that you're keeping it, and get another. Right?

Jadecristal

 

[Jim K]

A lot of unknowns here. Is the dorm address out of state? If so, I can see the dealer's problem, since he would be in violation of the law and the whole thing would seem like a BATFE "sting" operation.

"Ooops, I made a mistake and put the wrong address, but I have another address and if that's not OK, then my father will buy the gun and say it is for him then give it to me...."

If I were the dealer, I would politely remind you that doors work both ways, and not sell you anything, next week, next month or maybe next year, since I would assume you are out to get me.

Jim

 

[peyton]

Update on pistol purchase and problem with error on the BATF form. My son updated his drivers license to reflect his college address, which is what he used initially on the form. The manager was happy, background check was good and the wonderful S&W model 332 in the titanium (or was that unobtainium???) joins the fold. As soon as he graduates from AIT we will have a blast!! Oh wait, I will be back in IRAQ!!!

 

[Zundfolge]

Ok, I'm losing my mind and responding to threads I responded to a long time ago (that or a couple of threads got merged or something).

 

[foob]

Didn't read completely, nevermind

 

[Im283]

I had something similar happen.

I was yapping tot he counter guy while filling out the form. Inadvertantly I used my old address. When I asked for another form he told me I did not have a second chance on it that day. I would have to come back the next day and do it again. I was bummed but I should have paid attention. Went back the next day and had no problem once I put correct info on a new sheet.

Now when I fill one out I make sure my drivers license is in hand and no more yapping to the clerk while filling it out. End of my problem.

 

[foob]

When I asked for another form he told me I did not have a second chance on it that day. I would have to come back the next day and do it again.

So is this a legal issue or what? I would think forms are free, why wouldn't he give you a blank one?

Also I've crossed out a mistake on my 4473 before. One of the yes/no questions.

 

[Ala Dan]

We have been told by the BATFE not to accept a PO Box for an
address; that the address used MUST BE the corrrect physical
address of the actual buyer of the firearm. So, in compliance with
their so call statues; that is the way we do it here in Bama'Land~!

 

[Bubbles]

What is so holy about a piece of paper with the number 4473 on it, anyway? If you make a mistake while filling it out, before looking over it and signing it, then you made a mistake - you rip it up/shred it/tell the dealer that you're keeping it, and get another. Right?

Wrong. FFL's must keep all 4473's (they're numbered) in their files, even if the customer makes a mistake on one.

 

[eastwood44mag]

***I'm not a lawyer***

But when I was in college, I never changed my DL, since I was a resident of IL living in IA. Paid IL taxes, had a permanent residence in IL, etc. I think as a college student, where you lay your head is not considered where you are a resident. Nobody seemed to mind it when I told them the situation.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Originally posted by peyton:
When we realized what occurred we asked for a new form, and GOT REFUSED.

I don't understand this. These forms are not serial numbered like a cop's ticket book or something. Why not just shred it and start over? Also, I've made small mistakes on the form, and just put an X through it with my initials and those of the gun shop salesman next to it.

 

[foob]

Wrong. FFL's must keep all 4473's (they're numbered) in their files, even if the customer makes a mistake on one.

I know my FFL puts his own numbers on the box in the top right corner of the first page. Did not know there were pre-printed numbers on the 4473.