More CCW in Israel

[omcf]

I just saw Wolf Blitzer (on CNN) speak to Micky Rosenfeld (Israeli Police spokesman), trying 7 ways to Sunday to get him to admit that more Jews with pistols would lead to murder, chaos, and useless bloodshed. The cop did not agree, using that logic stuff to make the opposite point.

This is apparently in reference to Israeli mayor's advice for more Israelis to carry pistols in order to thwart knife attacks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-dead-stabbing-four-people-screwdriver.html


When an obviously exasperated Blitzer could not get him to agree that anyone except police having firearms was dangerous and stupid, the Policeman pointed to a knife attack where the terrorist was shot by the victim, who had been conceal-carrying a pistol.

Wolf didn't like that, seemed to me....

My question: if the Israelis think it is common sense, (their CCW laws are actually fairly strict up to now) does that help our arguments here? Or will the U.S. media just turn on Israelis trying to defend themselves?

 

[200Apples]

.
I watched a segment on a national evening news last night featuring that Mayor saying that very thing; that he's urging more Israeli citizens to go armed. Later in the same piece was some wild footage broadcast of knife and machete attacks; the kind of graphic footage not normally associated with the brainwashing one has (unconsciously?) come to expect from our Nat'l television media.

Did Volfie watch any of that? He's not only a hoplophobe, he's... nevermind.

 

[Bobson]

I can't imagine it will help here. If logic isn't enough to convince Americans, neither will the actions of a small, enormously controversial country. If anything, I can see Israel losing even more favor over this sort of thing.

Most public institutions here still teach that we should comply with violent aggressors to increase our odds of coming out alive. That's evidence that many people here still view fighting back as doing more harm than good. Get serious.

 

[gbran]

I always have to chime in with this: If the teachers at Sandy Hook could have a do-over, I'd bet they all would have preferred to face Adam Lanza with a gun of their own.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...My question: if the Israelis think it is common sense, (their CCW laws are actually fairly strict up to now) does that help our arguments here?...

First the article didn't say anything about easing Israel's strict gun laws:

....Nir Barkat, a former military officer and licensed gun owner, defended his decision to carry a weapon during a visit this week to an Arab neighborhood and encouraged other licensed gun owners to also carry their weapons.

'One of the advantages Israel has is that there are many veterans of military units with operational combat experience,' he said....

Second, Israel's gun laws are very strict, as noted in this article:

...As opposed to the United States where gun ownership is a right, in Israel it is a privilege given to people who meet certain requirements.

The licenses have only been issued to those who work in security or law enforcement, or who live in settlements or other places where the state has an interest in them being armed.

As of earlier this week, criteria included that the applicant be over 21, an Israeli resident for more than three years, have passed a mental and physical health exam, background checks by the Public Security Ministry and shooting exams and courses at a licensed gun range. If given a permit, the holder is allowed to order a single firearm with a one-time supply of 50 bullets from a licensed dealer. He is required to retake the licensing exam and undergo testing at a gun range every three years.....

 

[gbran]

...As opposed to the United States where gun ownership is a right, in Israel it is a privilege given to people who meet certain requirements.

Kind of like NY, NJ, CA and certain others?

 

[Frank Ettin]

Kind of like NY, NJ, CA and certain others?

Except if you had actually read the article I linked to and the quote from that article, Israeli gun laws are much harsher than those of California, New Jersey and New York (at least New York State, if not New York City).

So let's not play silly games and instead deal with facts and reality. Nothing is gained here by being cute.

 

[usmarine0352_2005]

Frank Ettin: First the article didn't say anything about easing Israel's strict gun laws:

From another article.




http://www.theblaze.com/stories/201...er-against-terrorism-eases-gun-license-rules/

Israel Calls Citizen Gun Owners a ‘Force Multiplier’ Against Terrorism, Eases Gun License Rules

Oct. 14, 2015 10:56am

In an effort to stem a wave of Palestinian attacks targeting civilians on buses, light rail stops and on city streets, the Israeli government Wednesday decided to ease citizens’ access to guns, calling legal gun owners a “force multiplier” in combating terrorism.

“In light of the security situation, I have decided to make it easier to obtain a gun permit,” Public Security Minister Gilad Erdan said in a statement Wednesday. “In recent weeks, many citizens helped the Israel Police neutralize terrorists carrying out attacks. Citizens trained in the use of firearms are a force multiplier in the struggle against terror.” Gun permits are a requirement for owning a gun in Israel. While gun laws vary in different U.S. states, in Israel, licensed gun owners are free to carry their guns at all times.

 

[19-3Ben]

If given a permit, the holder is allowed to order a single firearm with a one-time supply of 50 bullets from a licensed dealer. He is required to retake the licensing exam and undergo testing at a gun range every three years.....

If I'm not mistaken, the 50 rounds is all you're allowed to have with you. But people can go to a range and shoot as much as they want.

When I did firearms training there back around 13 years ago or so, I think that's how it was, but it was also over ad decade ago, so my memory may not be exact on it.

 

[gun_with_a_view]

If logic isn't enough to convince Americans, neither will the actions of a small, enormously controversial country

Perhaps this assessment by the New York City Police Department of the potential for terrorism in the USA will help convince Americans what they are up against:

http://www.nypdshield.org/public/SiteFiles/documents/NYPD_Report-Radicalization_in_the_West.pdf

 

[Frank Ettin]

...From another article....

Yes, that article did mention easing permit requirements. Let's look at exactly what it said:

...Access to gun permits in Israel have been restricted to graduates of certain Israel Defense Forces and police units and those above certain ranks; those employed in jobs where cash is handled, like taxi drivers; and residents of Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria — commonly known as the West Bank — who often encounter Palestinian stone-throwers on the road.

Under the new policy, as reported in the Israeli media including the Times of Israel, lower-ranking former officers will now be approved for licenses as well as residents of towns considered under heightened danger.

Gun licenses must be renewed every few years, which involves a medical and mental health exam and practice at a shooting range.....

So even under the "eased" rules, access to a personal handgun remains highly restricted.

 

[DeepSouth]

My question: if the Israelis think it is common sense, (their CCW laws are actually fairly strict up to now) does that help our arguments here? Or will the U.S. media just turn on Israelis trying to defend themselves?

If you keep in mind that gun control is about control, not guns these questions answer themselves. Reason want convince them, nor will logic, nor statics, nor polling, nor public opinion, nor anything else.

The only thing that matters is getting to their desired end, what they'll have to do, ignore, blame, or condemn is irrelevant.

 

[jonnyc]

Fortunately in Israel, there are numerous other (all legal) avenues to get a carry permit. Some businesses and government offices issue (or offer) handguns and long-arms to their personnel, on-duty and traveling soldiers often carry issue or personal weapons, tour guides and escorts can get temporary permits, and settlement/moshav/kibbutz/town/village security coordinators can issue weapons and permits. I was one of those security coordinators for a few years and I could issue permits to myself! "Official" channels have always been difficult, but where there's a will...
What Wolf doesn't seem to understand is that Israel doesn't have a significant history of armed crime, and whatever "gun culture" there is there is very tiny and not very influential in the general population. Most Israeli citizens have trained with guns and don't really fixate on them like we do here. They realize that the guns aren't the problem, terrorism is.

 

[omcf]

Frank Ettin: I stated that Israeli gun requirements are quite strict, I do not see why you are magnifying the point, or for what end?

Also, I referred to an interview where an Israeli police spokesman spoke positively regarding civilians carrying pistols, versus the U.S. media trying to imply it would lead to indiscriminate violence. And his cogent response to that view.

If some on here believe that CNN dislikes Israeli policies, I will stipulate to that, but I still believe that most main stream media have a hard time denying outright the right of Jews to defend themselves. I see this as a swing argument, that we may profitably use to gain some adherents to our side.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Frank Ettin: I stated that Israeli gun requirements are quite strict, I do not see why you are magnifying the point, or for what end?....

Because the natural extension of your argument might well be that broader promotion of private citizens carrying guns in public might be more acceptable to the American public if we had to satisfy the same qualifications as Israelis.

So, for example, would you be glad to take a physical and mental examination in order to qualify for a handgun license, just as an Israeli must?

 

[omcf]

No, pretty sure I was making the opposite point.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...pretty sure I was making the opposite point.

You might have thought so, but you weren't -- at least not effectively.

The reality is that here the Israelis are not encouraging the widespread carrying of gun by all honest citizens. They are encouraging the widespread carrying of guns by a very select group of highly qualified person who have satisfied stringent requirements. They might have eased those requirements, but they have eased them only very slightly.

And while you might not have focused on that reality, you should not be surprised if the opposition throws it in your face. I've raised it because we need to understand that pointing to the stringent Israeli requirements for a handgun license is a foreseeable response to your argument.

If the Israelis really thought that widespread carrying of guns by all honest citizens was desirable, they could have implemented a "shall issue" license process with far more modest requirements -- something more along the lines of what we have in most States here. They didn't do anything at all like that.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Here is another article with more information:

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/201893#.Vh6cnflVhBc

 

[omcf]

This link spells out in detail what the Israeli police spokesman was dealing with. And although he addressed the military experience of CCW'ers there, that was not what the main stream media was hearing. Frank although that is a valid concern, I really think you are getting side-tracked in this instance. They only hear "civilians with guns" and go crazy, but here that argument was effectively shut down by a nation that many Americans feel empathy for.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/bra...ets-israelis-carrying-guns-defend-palestinian

 

[Tirod]

Well, the anti gunners here will keep wringing their hands about it for awhile, then as the number of successful events unfold, completely stop talking about it.

Then, given a few years, they will trot out the Israeli Solution to "gun violence," that the bearer of a weapon should be required to have periodic mental exams to retain their license. It will dovetail nicely with what they want to do absent total confiscation.

We now have a roadmap of their future agenda.

 

[omcf]

"BLITZER: Well, one final question, Micky, before I let you go. Aren't you concerned, though, it's one thing for police and military to walk around with weapons, but it's another thing for civilians simply to be walking around with weapons. Some of them may be trained, some of them not so well-trained, Aren't you concerned that they might simply shoot before they really know for sure there's a danger?

ROSENFELD: There are very strict firing orders when one is allowed to open fire both for the Israeli police as well as for citizens. One is only allowed to open fire when you are in a life-threatening situation, but unfortunately what we've seen over the last 10 day is sporadic attacks that have taken place in many cities around the country, and therefore, in this moment in time, we have to make sure that heightened security continues, that people that are walking around with their own personal weapons and lots of Israeli police and border police and undercover units that are working in different areas is essential. "

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Frank although that is a valid concern, I really think you are getting side-tracked in this instance....

And I think you're naive.

In my experience major concerns among non-gun people here with private citizens going around in public with guns are training, qualifications, mental stability and need. And when the Israeli process is examined, as it will be if the issue is pressed, it becomes apparent that (1) the Israelis aren't encouraging just anyone to carry a gun; and (2) the Israeli process allows only persons with what the government considers adequate training, qualifications, mental stability and need to carry guns in public.

 

[omcf]

"BLITZER: The Israeli Public Service Minister approved steps today that would make it easier, we're told, for civilians, for Israeli civilians to obtain gun permits. Do you think Israeli citizens should be defending the streets with more guns on their sides, armed?

MICKY ROSENFELD, ISRAELI POLICE SPOKESMAN: Absolutely, there's no problem with that issue whatsoever. The more Israelis that are walking around with pistols, that is important that the members of the public can also respond and react. Let's not forget that just over a week ago, a Palestinian 18-year-old woman stabbed an Israeli man in the back of his neck in the Old City. He pulled out his weapon and he responded and he shot that Palestinian woman who was, in fact, taken to a hospital in serious condition. So it is effective."

 

[gun_with_a_view]

Should the U.S. go the way of Israel and gun up?

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/n...ab-wounds-in-a-queens-park.html?mabReward=CTM

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/201...-in-northeast-dallas-suspect-in-custody.html/

 

[Frank Ettin]

Should the U.S. go the way of Israel and gun up?

Obviously you haven't read this thread. Israel is not "gunning up." Israel is encouraging the widespread carrying of guns by a very select group of highly qualified persons who have satisfied stringent requirements.

As outlined in this recent article, requirements to own a personal handgun have been very slightly eased but remain stringent:

...Access to gun permits in Israel have been restricted to graduates of certain Israel Defense Forces and police units and those above certain ranks; those employed in jobs where cash is handled, like taxi drivers; and residents of Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria — commonly known as the West Bank — who often encounter Palestinian stone-throwers on the road.

Under the new policy, as reported in the Israeli media including the Times of Israel, lower-ranking former officers will now be approved for licenses as well as residents of towns considered under heightened danger.

Gun licenses must be renewed every few years, which involves a medical and mental health exam and practice at a shooting range.....

Are you suggesting that we take a page from Israel's book and adopt similar policies?