New Remington R51 - 3913 killer?
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bigfatdave
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Pistols of that era werent standardized yet
Check out the Rem51, Colt1903, and Savage1907 - all competing designs in about the same size and caliber, VERY different look to each.
Making today's Rem51 look like the old one is a feature to me, not a bug.
Check out the Rem51, Colt1903, and Savage1907 - all competing designs in about the same size and caliber, VERY different look to each.
Making today's Rem51 look like the old one is a feature to me, not a bug.
Billy Shears,
Where did you find that 1917 Marine board reasoning? It's really funny considering the 1911 "was designed to be carried cocked and locked" re-history that's so often posted.
It looks to me that they took the M1 design, which relied on a heavy SA trigger and enclosed hammer, and went to a Condition 2 design with the M3, like the 1910 and early Colts.
Where did you find that 1917 Marine board reasoning? It's really funny considering the 1911 "was designed to be carried cocked and locked" re-history that's so often posted.
It looks to me that they took the M1 design, which relied on a heavy SA trigger and enclosed hammer, and went to a Condition 2 design with the M3, like the 1910 and early Colts.
Gtscotty
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I might be interested in a .30 BFD cartridge, as long as it's a .40 S&W necked down to .30 (ish). That would be a hot cartridge, but maybe not so much for a short barreled carry gun.
I have to admit, the more I look at the R-51, the more it grows on me. Is it so wrong to dig the smooth curves and the 50's-esq swoopyness?
I have to admit, the more I look at the R-51, the more it grows on me. Is it so wrong to dig the smooth curves and the 50's-esq swoopyness?
earlthegoat2
Member
Looks very cool. Reminiscent of a Mauser HSC. If it works then good. Im not buying it until I know though.
The last decade- New + Remington = Junk.
The last decade- New + Remington = Junk.
Billy Shears
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One of the main reasons for that was the need to avoid infringing patents that were still in force then, but have long since expired. The Browning tilting barrel design is overwhelmingly dominant today. Even companies that used to produce pistols with different locking systems (e.g. Walther, H&K, Steyr) no longer produce designs with those competing systems, but do produce Browning tilting barrel handguns. But back when Pedersen designed the Model 53 and 51, Browning's patents were still in force, and he had to come up with an alternative system. I remember reading somewhere that Browning himself said once that Pedersen was as talented a designer as he ever was, but he simply had the misfortune to come along a generation after Browning, and meanwhile, Browning had perfected a lot of his designs and got them to the market first. Consequently, Pedersen spent most of his career designing his way around Browning's patents, and it limited him in a number of ways. (Interestingly, Browning himself ran into this problem designing the Grande Rendement, which Dieudonne Saive finished to create the Hi Power, because Colt by then held the patents on the 1911, and Saive could only incorporate those features the guns shared after those patents expired in the 1930s.)
Billy Shears
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It's printed in the October 1969 issue of "The Gun Report" in an article by Charles Walker. It's worth reading if you're interested in the history of the design. Walker cited the original records from the Marine/Navy trials, and there are photos and patent drawings and a lot more info. Look for a copy on ebay if you want to pick one up; they come up for sale every now and again.
HarcyPervin
Member
Hated the look of it this morning...gave it some time (had some coffee) and looked again this afternoon, now I'm starting to like it a little more.
Price is right, would really need to hold it to gauge how much I like it. Can't really tell if that grip safety will be engaged by the palm on the grip or if the pressure needs to come from the top of the hand.
Price is right, would really need to hold it to gauge how much I like it. Can't really tell if that grip safety will be engaged by the palm on the grip or if the pressure needs to come from the top of the hand.
I think it could be argued that Pederson may have come up with a superior design to Browning's, and history just didn't pay attention.
Here's a system that has all the advantages of a delayed blowback pistol but is no more costly to machine than a Browning action.
I'm excited.
Here's a system that has all the advantages of a delayed blowback pistol but is no more costly to machine than a Browning action.
I'm excited.
verdun59
Member
Billy, I looked at the video more than once, and then did some research on the original, and I believe you have sold me on my new purchase. I could trade my Shield (which I have tried to love but just can't), and it would be the proverbial win-win for me. So I'm going to spring into action when they are available. Thanks.
gc70
Member
Form follows function. The current crop of small 9s look largely the same because they are based on a locked breech and tilting-barrel mechanism. When the size of the overall package is reduced as far as possible, the necessary components result in a certain commonality of appearance.
The Remington looks more like small pistols that did not use the tilting-barrel system - FN 1910, Savage 1907, or Astra 300.
We have grown accustomed to small 9s looking the way they do, but I am confident that, when it was introduced, the 1911 looked alien to people accustomed to the Single Action Army.
The Remington looks more like small pistols that did not use the tilting-barrel system - FN 1910, Savage 1907, or Astra 300.
We have grown accustomed to small 9s looking the way they do, but I am confident that, when it was introduced, the 1911 looked alien to people accustomed to the Single Action Army.
I tend to have a fondness for retro/non-conforming styling. At first glance it grabbed my attention, then I started to nit pick the design. Now after a few hours of reflection, and the modest price, I think i'll add it to my "to buy" list.
gc70
Member
Hammsbeer said:
The frame says Charlotte NC.
Billy Shears
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Well, I'm no engineer, but I'm a little surprised they made it work with a 9mm, and plus P at that. Remember, the case backs out of the chamber just a little -- as I said, by about the same distance as the thickness of the cartridge rim, but the 9mm is a tapered case, and the plus P is pretty high pressure. The degree of taper is small, but I suppose it's possible that the case ends up blown out just a tiny bit, maybe enough you won't get as many reloads out of it.
Looks interesting. We'll have to see how the trigger feels.
I'm optimistic.
For CCW, I do prefer a safety switch that can be operated easily.
The low bore axis sounds good.
How the Pedersen system works with the Parabellum remains to be seen, but it was OK with the .45 ACP, and again, I'm optimistic.
I'm optimistic.
For CCW, I do prefer a safety switch that can be operated easily.
The low bore axis sounds good.
How the Pedersen system works with the Parabellum remains to be seen, but it was OK with the .45 ACP, and again, I'm optimistic.
barnbwt
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"Reverse the rear sight and it'd look great."
Reverse the rear sight and it'll snag on your holster, too. Looking at this gun reminds me of the scene in The Aviator where Hughes is insisting on countersunk rivets on his racing monoplane to the frustration of his staff; "She needs to be slippery"
I haven't been this instinctively excited about a new gun since the Boberg was introduced. And while that gun is very interesting on the inside, the exterior is the same carry gun formal we've all seen for like ten years now; box on a comfy grip. This new Remington is both truly innovative (in as much as a dusted-off 100yo design can be called "innovative," which it can when everyone has been riding JM Browning's corpse's coat tails for 100 years) and offers something aesthetically unique in a market crowded with angular clones covered in levers. It's about time Ortgies came back into fashion
Pederson was at least the same level of genius as Browning, so anyone shrugging off an execution of a principle he developed is speaking from ignorance. The design basically marries the low recoil of a locked breech and the simplicity/reliability of a roller-delayed blowback. From the animation, the critical factor determining its durability appears to be the quality of steel Remington uses; easy enough to figure out early on before buying. The rest of the action looks like it doesn't depend on Rube-Goldbergs or super tight tolerances to function. It's basically a recoil action except the barrel doesn't move with the slide (the breech is still locked internally)
We'll soon see if my long-held belief that the innovation-demanding gun public actually hates innovation is correct or not. At best, I'll have a fantastic carry gun that looks and functions well, while being noticeably smaller in profile than competitors. At worst, I'll have a rapidly appreciating collector's item.
Not nearly enough people realize just how stagnant the modern duty-pistol market has been mechanically. You have your 1911's, your Hi-Powers, your SIGs, PX4s, and some blowbacks in small calibers. Yes, there's bit players like Boberg, Wildey, and Desert Eagle out there, but not in any real capacity. Bringing a new player to the game which appears readily competitive is, by definition, a game-changer. I'm most interested in how Remington managed to produce this action affordably; the Army passed on the 45cal variant because it cost too much (i.e. they couldn't disqualify it on other grounds, and a 1911 was somehow cheaper by comparison)
"FUGLY....I have never liked the look of the Euro style blowbacks."
Yeah, the slide looks wrong, but only because it's not the same thickness as the grip. Notice how much skinner it can be when there's no need to drop it down inside the frame (compare to a P228, for example). The "swoop" on the side which someone on page one photoshopped away to make it look more "normal" looks to remove a substantial amount of dead weight. How else would you thin the slide while still retaining slab sides to cut grip notches into? At least they didn't cut striations at the front of the slide or leave it flat (and heavy) with an ugly rollmark. Personally, I like the neo-Deco look to it; it's curvy enough for ladies to be drawn to it, but still looks fast/modern to attract men --just like a Ferrari
I've seen pictures of the gun with and without a polished/blued slide; I sincerely hope Remington ponies up to deliver the guns with polished slides instead of the crummy/rusty matte "park" they put on so many of their guns now.
TCB
Reverse the rear sight and it'll snag on your holster, too. Looking at this gun reminds me of the scene in The Aviator where Hughes is insisting on countersunk rivets on his racing monoplane to the frustration of his staff; "She needs to be slippery"
I haven't been this instinctively excited about a new gun since the Boberg was introduced. And while that gun is very interesting on the inside, the exterior is the same carry gun formal we've all seen for like ten years now; box on a comfy grip. This new Remington is both truly innovative (in as much as a dusted-off 100yo design can be called "innovative," which it can when everyone has been riding JM Browning's corpse's coat tails for 100 years) and offers something aesthetically unique in a market crowded with angular clones covered in levers. It's about time Ortgies came back into fashion
Pederson was at least the same level of genius as Browning, so anyone shrugging off an execution of a principle he developed is speaking from ignorance. The design basically marries the low recoil of a locked breech and the simplicity/reliability of a roller-delayed blowback. From the animation, the critical factor determining its durability appears to be the quality of steel Remington uses; easy enough to figure out early on before buying. The rest of the action looks like it doesn't depend on Rube-Goldbergs or super tight tolerances to function. It's basically a recoil action except the barrel doesn't move with the slide (the breech is still locked internally)
We'll soon see if my long-held belief that the innovation-demanding gun public actually hates innovation is correct or not. At best, I'll have a fantastic carry gun that looks and functions well, while being noticeably smaller in profile than competitors. At worst, I'll have a rapidly appreciating collector's item.
Not nearly enough people realize just how stagnant the modern duty-pistol market has been mechanically. You have your 1911's, your Hi-Powers, your SIGs, PX4s, and some blowbacks in small calibers. Yes, there's bit players like Boberg, Wildey, and Desert Eagle out there, but not in any real capacity. Bringing a new player to the game which appears readily competitive is, by definition, a game-changer. I'm most interested in how Remington managed to produce this action affordably; the Army passed on the 45cal variant because it cost too much (i.e. they couldn't disqualify it on other grounds, and a 1911 was somehow cheaper by comparison)
"FUGLY....I have never liked the look of the Euro style blowbacks."
Yeah, the slide looks wrong, but only because it's not the same thickness as the grip. Notice how much skinner it can be when there's no need to drop it down inside the frame
(compare to a P228, for example). The "swoop" on the side which someone on page one photoshopped away to make it look more "normal" looks to remove a substantial amount of dead weight. How else would you thin the slide while still retaining slab sides to cut grip notches into? At least they didn't cut striations at the front of the slide or leave it flat (and heavy) with an ugly rollmark. Personally, I like the neo-Deco look to it; it's curvy enough for ladies to be drawn to it, but still looks fast/modern to attract men --just like a Ferrari
I've seen pictures of the gun with and without a polished/blued slide; I sincerely hope Remington ponies up to deliver the guns with polished slides instead of the crummy/rusty matte "park" they put on so many of their guns now.
TCB
Deaf Smith
Member
I'll start saving money now.
If the Remington does live up to the ads I'll get one.
But I'd sure prefer a STAINLESS one. Say with a polymer finish to make it dark yet still stainless underneath.
We will see.
Deaf
If the Remington does live up to the ads I'll get one.
But I'd sure prefer a STAINLESS one. Say with a polymer finish to make it dark yet still stainless underneath.
We will see.
Deaf
chicharrones
needs more ammo
Sam Cade
Member
I'm highly optimistic about this.
Milled extended trigger finger index point.
Nice.
Milled extended trigger finger index point.
Nice.
1SOW
Member
Aluminum with steel slide.
SA. Compared favorably to 1911 SA in the testing
High grip
Very small dimensions and light weight
Completely dehorned
Grip safety only
Design withstands higher pressures due to fixed bbl and locking block
INEXPENSIVE!
Wow
Deaf Smith +1
SA. Compared favorably to 1911 SA in the testing
High grip
Very small dimensions and light weight
Completely dehorned
Grip safety only
Design withstands higher pressures due to fixed bbl and locking block
INEXPENSIVE!
Wow
Deaf Smith +1
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