CraigC said:
That's ironic coming from an energy clinger. Sorry but far too many head of big game have fallen to such loads.
You are tilting at windmills. How many times have I said that rounds like the .45-70 are perfectly capable. You are intent on perpetuating an argument that isn't being attended by anyone but yourself.
CraigC said:
My wife has taken around 6 antelope and 5 mule deer with her .45 Colt. She uses a 4 3/4" Seville and the handload is a 260 Keith cast at 900 fps. This load will shoot lengthwise of antelope and mule deer at 100 yards.
Not to be too blunt, but bull droppings.
No 900 fps 45 Colt is going lengthwise through a Mulie at 100 yards. No way, no how. Not happening. That alone should be enough to discredit anything coming from that link.
But as long as we are mentioning unethical hunting, trying to take Mulies at 100 yards with .45 Colt out of a 4.75 inch barrel single action revolver.. That qualifies.
CraigC said:
We have proven that energy is a meaningless number.
Who we kimosabe?
CraigC said:
What matters is what a specific bullet does at a specific impact velocity. How much does it expand? How deeply does it penetrate? How broad a wound channel does it create? Does it exit? The energy it produces while doing so is irrelevant.
Read the part I underlined, then read your previous conditions and tell me where you went wrong.
Hang on, I'll point it out:
CraigC said:
How broad a wound channel does it create?
This is a function of energy as well as a function of bullet diameter. A high energy high velocity round creates a wound channel far out of proportion to the bullet diameter that can disrupt and destroy vital organs the bullet never touched.
If you had the experience of pouring deer out of their chest cavities you would know this to be true. The heart and lungs didn't just throw themselves in a conveniently located chest blender. This effect only happens with high velocity high energy rounds and never ever with low velocity low energy rounds. Wonder why that is?
CraigC said:
It's a simplistic crutch for those who do not understand that terminal ballistics is a terribly complicated subject that can't be explained away with a simple mathematical formula.
How cute.
I've been elbows deep in about fifty animals so far this season. I could tell you within seconds which ones were shot by high energy high velocity rounds and which weren't. You know why? Because the ones shot with the high energy rounds have soup organs. The ones shot with low energy rounds have bullet sized holes through their organs. Either it's an amazing coincidence that this always seems to happen, or there something at work here that your refuse to acknowledge.
I'm starting to suspect that the reason you are being so steadfast is because you shoot something on the slower low energy side and you simply refuse to believe there might be something here. I suspect that if you'd actually killed animals with a large variety of firearms and ammunition you would know that high energy projectiles behave way out of proportion to bullet expansion or diameter. That you so steadfastly refuse to even acknowledge that the high speed passage of a projectile proximate to organs not directly touched by the bullet can cause severe disruption, failure or even complete disintegration of the organ tells me that you really don't have much actual hands on experience in the matter.
Perhaps you should qualify that for us now. Since you said, "My own experience supports this beyond any doubt.:, what exactly is your experience in this field that allows you to speak so authoritatively about the non-existent wounding effects that I observe first hand dozens of times a year? Because right now, every time you tell us energy doesn't wound, all I hear is you saying you've not killed a lot of animals with high energy rounds.
Jason_W said:
Unless you subscribe to Dr. Fackler's theories.
Fackler never shot enough living creatures. I'd hardly call it irrelevant if all the organs in your chest cavity are reduced to a soupy mash. Fackler has also been directly contradicted by more modern battlefield wound studies.
"Distant injuries away from the main track in high velocity missile injuries are very important and almost always present in all cases especially in the chest and abdomen and this should be put in the consideration on the part of the forensic pathologist and probably the general surgeon.
— R. S. Selman et al."
Furthermore:
"Nathan Foster of Terminal Ballistics Research found that it is possible to induce hydrostatic shock in Bovines providing impact velocity is above 2600fps, using controlled expanding projectiles of appropriate weights. Furthermore, using hunting cartridges between 6mm and .338 bore diameters, a nominal velocity of 2600fps or higher produces the same results on most mammals where bullet weights and bullet construction are again appropriately matched to game body weights for optimum energy transfer. During tests, wider bores were capable of producing hydrostatic shock at lower impact velocities than the small bores on medium game- but not heavy game, showing the subtle relationships between bullet frontal area and energy transfer and bullet weights versus game weights.
Tests revealed that Hydrostatic shock produces an immediate loss of consciousness. This often appears to the viewer as an 'instant kill' But it is the action of loss of consciousness combined with rapid blood loss to the point that life can no longer be sustained, that results in what can be better described as fast, humane killing. Mr Foster also found that results with Hornady TAP ammunition (frangible A-Max projectile) can produce neural trauma on medium sized game at much lower impact velocities than traditional hunting projectiles.[62]
Dr. Randall Gilbert describes hydrostatic shock as an important factor in bullet performance on whitetail deer, “When it [a bullet] enters a whitetail’s body, huge accompanying shock waves send vast amounts of energy through nearby organs, sending them into arrest or shut down.”[63] Dave Ehrig expresses the view that hydrostatic shock depends on impact velocities above 1,100 ft (340 m) per second.[64] Sid Evans explains the performance of the Nosler Partition bullet and Federal Cartridge Company’s decision to load this bullet in terms of the large tissue cavitation and hydrostatic shock produced from the frontal diameter of the expanded bullet.[65] The North American Hunting Club suggests big game cartridges that create enough hydrostatic shock to quickly bring animals down."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock#Autopsy_Findings_in_Iraq
The science is in. Remote wounding from high energy projectiles is established fact. People still arguing it doesn't happen either don't have hands on experience or aren't up on the research.