Police departments & the 9mm....?

[kenno]

If you can't hit your target it does not matter what caliber the gun is.

 

[mothermopar]

Most (if not all) of the major Federal agencies now only issue/allow 9mm's as a backup weapon (if at all). 40's are most common, with the USSS issuing 357 Sigs.

 

[stinger 327]

Quote:
I don't think the 30-30 is a very good sniper round.

But, if I got shot in the head with one, I might change my mind.

W.E.G.

So what is a good sniper round in 30.06? Which grain 150? 165?

 

[stinger 327]

not only is the trigger easier to teach, reloading is magnitudes easier with a semi-auto. with the same amount of training and practice, the first accurate shots from the holster are about even, but reloading is consistently faster with a mag and more rounds are loaded at each time

Most shootings are within 7 yards and don't require reloading.
It's those first few shots that count. Spray n pray endangers public safety.

 

[9mmepiphany]

posted by stinger 327
Spray n pray endangers public safety.

ha ha...this from someone who posted that most defensive use of a handgun would consist of point shooting

Most shootings are within 7 yards and don't require reloading.

if you're referring to the FBI stats, they are referring to shootings that result in deaths...they don't count shootings where you put down the other guy, but they don't die. it has to do with how the information is captured

if shoot outs didn't require reloading, then LEOs wouldn't carry extra ammo...tell that to the guys at the North Hollywood shoot out (i'll bet that threw off the average with hundreds of rounds fired) or the FBI Miami shootout or even the old CHP Newhall shootout

So what is a good sniper round in 30.06? Which grain 150? 165?

good snipers are now using the .338 Lapua
LE is using the 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm
good long distance shooters are using the .260 Rem or 6.5 variations

 

[tpaw]

How do police these days carry those Glocks? Are they cocked already or do they have to rack a round into the chamber?

Here in NYC they are hot and ready to go. If during a surprise inspection you do not have one in the tube, you are subject to department charges.

 

[blackwalnut]

Cleveland Ohio adopted the Glock 17 just 2 years ago. I have talked to 2 officers and they both like the pistol and cartridge. Also talked to a female marine buying 9mm at Walmart she likes the caliber. They all qualify well. I have a Glock 17 and enjoy it too.
Hitting the target is very important. Big noises dont get the job done. I am sure bad hits dont count much either sometimes. I wonder if some people have a fantasy about saving a rainy day or going up against a regiment of Germans and Moro savages . The 9mm may and I mean may be smaller than some but Im sure no one wants to get on the receiving end of one to prove a point against it. I hope I never have to use one.

 

[stinger 327]

Cleveland Ohio adopted the Glock 17 just 2 years ago. I have talked to 2 officers and they both like the pistol and cartridge. Also talked to a female marine buying 9mm at Walmart she likes the caliber. They all qualify well. I have a Glock 17 and enjoy it too.
Hitting the target is very important. Big noises dont get the job done. I am sure bad hits dont count much either sometimes. I wonder if some people have a fantasy about saving a rainy day or going up against a regiment of Germans and Moro savages . The 9mm may and I mean may be smaller than some but Im sure no one wants to get on the receiving end of one to prove a point against it. I hope I never have to use one.

I have a Glock 21 and a Glock 17 and prefer the Glock 21 just because I can hit better with it. For some reason the 9mm Glock 17 I can not get good groups on it. The .45 ACP comes out to be more accurate even though both of these have fixed sights.
Now with the 9mm don't more people survive from getting hit from this caliber?
I heard that originally the 9mm was made to wound in order to tie up the soldiers with helping and carrying the wounded.

 

[stinger 327]

ha ha...this from someone who posted that most defensive use of a handgun would consist of point shooting



if you're referring to the FBI stats, they are referring to shootings that result in deaths...they don't count shootings where you put down the other guy, but they don't die. it has to do with how the information is captured

if shoot outs didn't require reloading, then LEOs wouldn't carry extra ammo...tell that to the guys at the North Hollywood shoot out (i'll bet that threw off the average with hundreds of rounds fired) or the FBI Miami shootout or even the old CHP Newhall shootout



good snipers are now using the .338 Lapua
LE is using the 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm
good long distance shooters are using the .260 Rem or 6.5 variations

These were rare shootings that police went up against well armed felons with a.
Mini-14 in the 1986 Dade Florida shootout with FBI. The felon Pratt? was wounded but it took too much time for his mortal wounds to stop him from shooting. Didn't some agent take him out with his .38 revolver finally?

The LA bank robbery felons had body armor on so even with extra ammo wouldn't have helped just bounced off. They had fully automatic weapons. Police would have been better off with shot placement. LAPD had the man power but they had underpowered guns in this situation from what I heard to meet the felons resistance. They just weren't prepared for something like this at that time.

I don't know the exact specifics of that shooting but doesn't SWAT handle this type of situation? Did Swat step in? It isn't a common type of shooting if you want to call it that as Special Weapons and Tactics would be warranted here especially since bank robbers were still on the move and had not escaped. But there is no honor among thieves as one of them took off in the car and left his partner in the open without any cover.

More patrol officers end up pulling their guns alot more than ever shooting them in their careers.

The Oakdale incident I understand that the CHP officers were trained to dump their brass into their pockets (neatness on the range perhaps? or too much spit and shine military discipline mentality wrongly used here in training?) and that endangered their lives so they had to change their training after learning from this unfortunate shooting. They reverted back to the way they were trained which wasn't the best in this case.
I believe the felons over ran them when they were reloading and putting brass back into their pockets. Were 4 CHP officers killed? When did the Newhall Oakdale incident occur? What were the felons armed with and how many? I don't remember this but have heard of this incident.
Other groups in the past such as the Black Panthers/militant groups are not what your typical patrol officer is confronted with or prepared to deal with as element of surpise favors the other guys who already have a plan.

 

[wrs840]

I recently asked an Iredell County NC detective buddy of mine what his current duty weapon was, he said he had a 9mm, a .40, and a .45, all Glocks, and switches out and just carries what he feels like carrying that day. I then asked which he likes best. He said he "likes" his 9mm best because it's the one he's most accurate with. He's a country boy, a lifelong shooter, and a field cop, not a desk-driver.

FWIW,
Les

 

[stinger 327]

I recently asked an Iredell County NC detective buddy of mine what his current duty weapon was, he said he had a 9mm, a .40, and a .45, all Glocks, and switches out and just carries what he feels like carrying that day. I then asked which he likes best. He said he "likes" his 9mm best because it's the one he's most accurate with. He's a country boy, a lifelong shooter, and a field cop, not a desk-driver.

FWIW,
Les

I shot my friends Sig P-228 the 9mm model and that was deadly accurate right on so it could be differences in the guns.

 

[9mmepiphany]

posted by stinger 327
These were rare shootings that police went up against...

i guess you can make anything fit the stats if you keep adding qualifications

i just add some final personal experience. in 28 years in LE, i've have been through more than one post-incident debriefing with officers who have been involved in shootings...some resulting in death, others not...and more than half the incidents have involved reloading their weapons to stay in the fight. our department spent a lot of time on the ability to reload under pressure

 

[stinger 327]

i guess you can make anything fit the stats if you keep adding qualifications

i just add some final personal experience. in 28 years in LE, i've have been through more than one post-incident debriefing with officers who have been involved in shootings...some resulting in death, others not...and more than half the incidents have involved reloading their weapons to stay in the fight. our department spent a lot of time on the ability to reload under pressure

What jurisdiction were you in?

 

[9mmepiphany]

What jurisdiction were you in?

CA

1500+ department before the budget cuts...why do you ask?

 

[stinger 327]

CA

1500+ department before the budget cuts...why do you ask?

It wouldn't happen to be Oakland would it?

 

[TEXMEX]

Many police departments have found that the 9mm +P is far easier for the average officer to qualify with. Plus, it is sufficiently effective on the street. (Contrary to net gossip!)

So......departments have to make a choice. Better gun control for most, or slightly more stopping power at the cost of less gun control. Less gun control means less accuracy. Less accuracy means bad hits or complete misses. And bad hits and misses aren't good.

I can carry whatever I want, and choose to carry a 9mm loaded with +P+ JHP's.

 

[danez71]

These were rare shootings that police went up against well armed felons with a.
Mini-14 in the 1986 Dade Florida shootout with FBI. The felon Pratt? was wounded but it took too much time for his mortal wounds to stop him from shooting. Didn't some agent take him out with his .38 revolver finally?

The LA bank robbery felons had body armor on so even with extra ammo wouldn't have helped just bounced off. They had fully automatic weapons. Police would have been better off with shot placement. LAPD had the man power but they had underpowered guns in this situation from what I heard to meet the felons resistance. They just weren't prepared for something like this at that time.

I don't know the exact specifics of that shooting but doesn't SWAT handle this type of situation? Did Swat step in? It isn't a common type of shooting if you want to call it that as Special Weapons and Tactics would be warranted here especially since bank robbers were still on the move and had not escaped. But there is no honor among thieves as one of them took off in the car and left his partner in the open without any cover.

More patrol officers end up pulling their guns alot more than ever shooting them in their careers.

The Oakdale incident I understand that the CHP officers were trained to dump their brass into their pockets (neatness on the range perhaps? or too much spit and shine military discipline mentality wrongly used here in training?) and that endangered their lives so they had to change their training after learning from this unfortunate shooting. They reverted back to the way they were trained which wasn't the best in this case.
I believe the felons over ran them when they were reloading and putting brass back into their pockets. Were 4 CHP officers killed? When did the Newhall Oakdale incident occur? What were the felons armed with and how many? I don't remember this but have heard of this incident.
Other groups in the past such as the Black Panthers/militant groups are not what your typical patrol officer is confronted with or prepared to deal with as element of surpise favors the other guys who already have a plan.

Police shooting are pretty rare in general. But they count towards statistics. Big shoot outs are pretty rare as well but they still count towards statistics as well. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that a .38 was the round that took the guy out after you just said that he already had mortal wounds.

Regarding the LA shoot out.... No, extra rounds dont just "bounce off" other than in cartoons and movies. Everytime a vest gets hit it degrades. Saying they wernt prepared is like saying we werent prepared for 911. In a free country you cant really prepare for random acts of violence. Yes, SWAT got involved but it was largely LAPD that stopped the bad guys.

In the Oakdale case you mentioned that they were reloading. Another example of police needing to reload.

As 9mmephinay said, you can make the stats fit anything if you keep putting qualifiers on it - Ill add "after the fact" to his statement.

Rather than play that way, how about stating what qualifies as a normal shoot out 1st?

Ahhh.... and there lies the rub. There really isnt a normal shoot out because shoot outs dont normally happen and they are all different.

 

[stinger 327]

Police shooting are pretty rare in general. But they count towards statistics. Big shoot outs are pretty rare as well but they still count towards statistics as well. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that a .38 was the round that took the guy out after you just said that he already had mortal wounds.

Regarding the LA shoot out.... No, extra rounds dont just "bounce off" other than in cartoons and movies. Everytime a vest gets hit it degrades. Saying they wernt prepared is like saying we werent prepared for 911. In a free country you cant really prepare for random acts of violence. Yes, SWAT got involved but it was largely LAPD that stopped the bad guys.

In the Oakdale case you mentioned that they were reloading. Another example of police needing to reload.

As 9mmephinay said, you can make the stats fit anything if you keep putting qualifiers on it - Ill add "after the fact" to his statement.

Rather than play that way, how about stating what qualifies as a normal shoot out 1st?

Ahhh.... and there lies the rub. There really isnt a normal shoot out because shoot outs dont normally happen and they are all different.

I concur with you. The spray n pray syndrome.
No point meant on Miami shootout with .38. It was that was the final shot that finished him off is what I heard with a 38 revolver.

 

[rscalzo]

They used to autherize the Kahr as well.

Last I heard they reauthorized it after Kahr brought an entire service dept. down to
rodman's Point and repaired them all.

Right across the river many of our people still carry second and third gen. S&W SA's in 9mm. New officers are required to carry a Glock 23.

 

[mothermopar]

When we switched from G19s to Sig229 in 40, many had issues adjusting to the new weapon platform. However, time and practice solved that.

If you can shoot and operate both well, there's no reason to not shoot the larger caliber, IMO.

 

[TEXMEX]

recalzo: Last I heard they reauthorized it after Kahr brought an entire service dept. down to
rodman's Point and repaired them all.
--------------------------------------------------------

Which model and caliber KAHR and exactly what were the problems? What fixes were done, and are the KAHR's 100% now?

 

[RetDep310]

My former department carried Sig P226's in 9mm since the late 80's. Still do, along with a couple of surrounding counties. Indiana State Police issues the Glock 17.

 

[stinger 327]

If you can't hit your target it does not matter what caliber the gun is.

So very true

 

[rscalzo]

Which model and caliber KAHR and exactly what were the problems? What fixes were done, and are the KAHR's 100% now?

Tell you truth I forgot. My department was right across the river from NYC and I talked to a few guys about it. All i remember is Kahr coming to NYC to handle the problem. Not a big deal because they aren't that far away. It wasn't just one problem but a few combined. Bad springs and parts as the basic design was fine.

NYPD had a lot of their people carrying the handgun so they couldn't simply just drop it without a lot of complaining. It's back on the approved list so I'd say they solved the problem. I agree with some that think they got too big too fast and couldn't keep up the quality and produce the numbers needed to meet demand. To not solve this problem would have been a PR nightmare. Personally, I don't see the lure of the handgun. It no longer is the reasonably priced handgun it once was when first released. Glock is a much better deal in my opinion.

 

[TEXMEX]

rscalzo, the lure (for me) is that some KAHR models are the lightest, thinest +P 9mm's with smooth 6 pound DA triggers on the market for pocket carry. I've owned 5-6 in 9mm & 40, and never once experienced a malfunction.

By the way, KAHR does make two models that cost +/- $400. The CW-9 & CW-40. Both weigh about 16oz and function as well as their more expensive brothers.

Knowing NYPD's high standards, I expect the KAHR's they approved are 100%. As are Glocks.