Most shootings are within 7 yards and don't require reloading.not only is the trigger easier to teach, reloading is magnitudes easier with a semi-auto. with the same amount of training and practice, the first accurate shots from the holster are about even, but reloading is consistently faster with a mag and more rounds are loaded at each time
posted by stinger 327
Spray n pray endangers public safety.
Most shootings are within 7 yards and don't require reloading.
So what is a good sniper round in 30.06? Which grain 150? 165?
How do police these days carry those Glocks? Are they cocked already or do they have to rack a round into the chamber?
I have a Glock 21 and a Glock 17 and prefer the Glock 21 just because I can hit better with it. For some reason the 9mm Glock 17 I can not get good groups on it. The .45 ACP comes out to be more accurate even though both of these have fixed sights.Cleveland Ohio adopted the Glock 17 just 2 years ago. I have talked to 2 officers and they both like the pistol and cartridge. Also talked to a female marine buying 9mm at Walmart she likes the caliber. They all qualify well. I have a Glock 17 and enjoy it too.
Hitting the target is very important. Big noises dont get the job done. I am sure bad hits dont count much either sometimes. I wonder if some people have a fantasy about saving a rainy day or going up against a regiment of Germans and Moro savages . The 9mm may and I mean may be smaller than some but Im sure no one wants to get on the receiving end of one to prove a point against it. I hope I never have to use one.
These were rare shootings that police went up against well armed felons with a.ha ha...this from someone who posted that most defensive use of a handgun would consist of point shooting
if you're referring to the FBI stats, they are referring to shootings that result in deaths...they don't count shootings where you put down the other guy, but they don't die. it has to do with how the information is captured
if shoot outs didn't require reloading, then LEOs wouldn't carry extra ammo...tell that to the guys at the North Hollywood shoot out (i'll bet that threw off the average with hundreds of rounds fired) or the FBI Miami shootout or even the old CHP Newhall shootout
good snipers are now using the .338 Lapua
LE is using the 5.56x45mm or 7.62x51mm
good long distance shooters are using the .260 Rem or 6.5 variations
I shot my friends Sig P-228 the 9mm model and that was deadly accurate right on so it could be differences in the guns.I recently asked an Iredell County NC detective buddy of mine what his current duty weapon was, he said he had a 9mm, a .40, and a .45, all Glocks, and switches out and just carries what he feels like carrying that day. I then asked which he likes best. He said he "likes" his 9mm best because it's the one he's most accurate with. He's a country boy, a lifelong shooter, and a field cop, not a desk-driver.
FWIW,
Les
posted by stinger 327
These were rare shootings that police went up against...
What jurisdiction were you in?i guess you can make anything fit the stats if you keep adding qualifications
i just add some final personal experience. in 28 years in LE, i've have been through more than one post-incident debriefing with officers who have been involved in shootings...some resulting in death, others not...and more than half the incidents have involved reloading their weapons to stay in the fight. our department spent a lot of time on the ability to reload under pressure
What jurisdiction were you in?
It wouldn't happen to be Oakland would it?CA
1500+ department before the budget cuts...why do you ask?
These were rare shootings that police went up against well armed felons with a.
Mini-14 in the 1986 Dade Florida shootout with FBI. The felon Pratt? was wounded but it took too much time for his mortal wounds to stop him from shooting. Didn't some agent take him out with his .38 revolver finally?
The LA bank robbery felons had body armor on so even with extra ammo wouldn't have helped just bounced off. They had fully automatic weapons. Police would have been better off with shot placement. LAPD had the man power but they had underpowered guns in this situation from what I heard to meet the felons resistance. They just weren't prepared for something like this at that time.
I don't know the exact specifics of that shooting but doesn't SWAT handle this type of situation? Did Swat step in? It isn't a common type of shooting if you want to call it that as Special Weapons and Tactics would be warranted here especially since bank robbers were still on the move and had not escaped. But there is no honor among thieves as one of them took off in the car and left his partner in the open without any cover.
More patrol officers end up pulling their guns alot more than ever shooting them in their careers.
The Oakdale incident I understand that the CHP officers were trained to dump their brass into their pockets (neatness on the range perhaps? or too much spit and shine military discipline mentality wrongly used here in training?) and that endangered their lives so they had to change their training after learning from this unfortunate shooting. They reverted back to the way they were trained which wasn't the best in this case.
I believe the felons over ran them when they were reloading and putting brass back into their pockets. Were 4 CHP officers killed? When did the Newhall Oakdale incident occur? What were the felons armed with and how many? I don't remember this but have heard of this incident.
Other groups in the past such as the Black Panthers/militant groups are not what your typical patrol officer is confronted with or prepared to deal with as element of surpise favors the other guys who already have a plan.
I concur with you. The spray n pray syndrome.Police shooting are pretty rare in general. But they count towards statistics. Big shoot outs are pretty rare as well but they still count towards statistics as well. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make that a .38 was the round that took the guy out after you just said that he already had mortal wounds.
Regarding the LA shoot out.... No, extra rounds dont just "bounce off" other than in cartoons and movies. Everytime a vest gets hit it degrades. Saying they wernt prepared is like saying we werent prepared for 911. In a free country you cant really prepare for random acts of violence. Yes, SWAT got involved but it was largely LAPD that stopped the bad guys.
In the Oakdale case you mentioned that they were reloading. Another example of police needing to reload.
As 9mmephinay said, you can make the stats fit anything if you keep putting qualifiers on it - Ill add "after the fact" to his statement.
Rather than play that way, how about stating what qualifies as a normal shoot out 1st?
Ahhh.... and there lies the rub. There really isnt a normal shoot out because shoot outs dont normally happen and they are all different.
They used to autherize the Kahr as well.
So very trueIf you can't hit your target it does not matter what caliber the gun is.
Which model and caliber KAHR and exactly what were the problems? What fixes were done, and are the KAHR's 100% now?