Remington's motivation for moving.
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Kynoch
member
Way too much overlap. The only thing that Ruger would benefit from are Marlin's lever guns...
Kynoch
member
If they intended to idle the plant, I suspect they would keep the museum open. The opportunity cost for not selling the property would be minimal -- Ilion would be devastated and real estate prices would plummet.
Still, I suspect NY State and the Feds would do everything it could to crucify Remington if Remington actually moved to close the plant.
It's interesting -- those that vilify Remington for closing and consolidating Marlin, Bushmaster, etc. into Ilion, NY and Mayfield, KY with regard to product quality issues are also the ones that wet their jeans in glee when there is news of any Remington production moving to Huntsville, AL.
rfwobbly
Member
Real estate prices in upper state NY are already on the ropes.
This is a true statement under the current Federal administration. Remember what happened to Boeing's move to SC ? Two years is about right to open a plant in AL. Don't look for any big announcements until the end of January 2017.
Sunray
Member
Winchester left Canada in 1979ish for the same reason. Ditto for Century. Century was no loss though.
Speedo66
Member
This is all Cuomo. What union do you think he belongs to?Thoughts...
The real story here is that union factory workers are being shafted by unionized bureaucrats. That's the story that's not being covered here.
Kynoch
member
Nothing like what would happen to Ilion if Remington closed. Ilion is a small village that sort of grew-up around Remington. Ilion would be devastated.
It all depends on how much the marketplace contracts. I don't know how much space the numerous non-Ilion businesses will occupy of the 800K square feet in Huntsville? That would be extremely interesting to know.
No matter how much they consume, I don't see them adding product lines that currently occupy more than 1M square feet in Ilion on top of everything else (even though the Huntsville facility is more modern) -- particularly if they wanted room to grow.
However, if their projections show market contraction and the cutting of product lines, maybe all will fit into Huntsville?
Factory space also depends somewhat on how much Ilion floorspace is taken up with idle lines for Military contracts. The government can (and does) require the original contractor to provide spares from time to time, no need for those idle lines to move. In fact, if a Military line gets moved an entirely new First Article run and qualification would be required.
Surly
Member
That's not Remington's fault. Cuomo and the other anti morons are the ones solely responsible for this. None of them will account for their actions and Remington's owners will be made to be the bad guys when it's spun by the media.
Remington (and other companies) will be doing what individuals say they can't. I can't understand how people complain about the laws, taxes, etc. and don't relocate. The worst of all is that said individuals finance their own enslavement through taxes they pay. If a company can relocate, any individual can to.
420Stainless
Member
A government that is openly hostile to your products sounds like it's a great reason to leave. Remington will lose a lot of skilled experience and I feel bad for the workers and their families, but Huntsville has a lot of machine shops and skilled labor. If any of them were able to move with the company, they probably would find plenty of competitive options for employment in the future if they decide they don't like Remington for some reason.
Thank goodness there isn't some sort of eminent domain to stop them yet. Someday soon I expect places like New York and California will probably try to use the "you didn't build that" mentality to keep companies from trying to leave their states or make it very expensive to do so.
Thank goodness there isn't some sort of eminent domain to stop them yet. Someday soon I expect places like New York and California will probably try to use the "you didn't build that" mentality to keep companies from trying to leave their states or make it very expensive to do so.
Kynoch
member
Sure it is. Trying to use the NY SAFE law as an excuse simply doesn't pass the smell test.
First, while the law potentially reduces the consumption of some Remington products by New Yorkers, it doesn't (nor can it) prohibit the production of guns in NY that are legal elsewhere.
Second, I'm not sure that there are any Remington-branded firearms that cannot be sold due to the SAFE act in NY. If there are, the number are small and the above still applies.
Because those with a longer view realize that things go in cycles. What specifically most impacts a business today might not be what most impacts it tomorrow. They also realize that there is value to continuing a tradition in Ilion, NY that began in 1828 and that Huntsville isn't always going to be peaches-n-cream as some suggest it is today.
Further, moving factories isn't easy, nor is it always successful. The same people bemoaning the move of Marlin/H&R and Bushmaster to Ilion (largely because of product quality issues) are the same wetting their pants with glee at the thought of those lines moving (or have already moved) to Mayfield, KY or Huntsville, AL.
You infer that Remington employees can simply move to Huntsville if indeed Ilion is closed. If Remington closes Ilion, I suspect one major reason will be to ditch their union. I suspect any new jobs will be non-union. Talk about "enslavement."
Kynoch
member
Why, if it does not impact the manufacture of them?
Hmmm... "eminent domain", huh?
Kynoch
member
Space is space. After Remington moved Bushmaster to Ilion they actually had to add and remodel a bit of space (paid for in part by the State of NY) to complete the move. News from the facility advertised the plant as being full.
Other than maybe the Remington Adaptive Combat Rifle which I'm not sure is even being built today, I don't think a lot of military contracts exist at Ilion.
420Stainless
Member
Why? Government (if it was actually transparent) - "It's ok for you to make them here as long as we get the tax and wage benefits for now. But since we think the end product is really unsuitable for public consumption and detrimental to safety, we'll only continue to add restrictions and make life more difficult for you in the future. We won't say that explicitly, but you can look at the tobacco and alcohol tax progressions and prohibitions overs the years and see where the road goes once we determine that the product you're producing is immoral even as we continue to consume and utilize them ourselves. There is some minority opposition to these sin taxes and restrictions, but since most of our residents are non-smokers and only casual drinkers it has worked out well so far. Hunters and gun enthusiasts are an even smaller portion of the population so we really aren't concerned that there will be significant backlash going forward given the political demographics of our particular state."
Kynoch
member
Naw. There are long standing Federal Interstate Commerce Laws that prohibit a state from making the manufacture of a product illegal when it's legal to sell in other states.
They might not be able to sell the product locally (which is not the case to my knowledge with any Remington-branded firearms in NY) but they cannot be stopped from producing it.
FWIW, NY has actually supported Remington with tax incentives/grants in the not too distant past.
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420Stainless
Member
They don't have to make it illegal to manufacture. That doesn't stop them from adding more and more restrictions and barriers over time. Supporting them with tax incentives and grants was a good thing, but when the voters appear to be trending toward more restrictions to firearms its not something I'd want to hang my future on as a manufacturer - not when things are much more likely to be politically favorable someplace else for quite some time.
Kynoch
member
From manufacturing specific items? Yes it does.
Kynoch
member
The State of NY's impact on Remington being able to manufacture firearms in Ilion has largely been positive with tax breaks, grants, etc. The NY SAFE Act does not reduce Remington's ability to produce guns in Ilion. It's not an excuse to cut and run.
That doesn't mean that Remington won't still choose to slither away. They could likely ditch their union and most of their higher paid legacy workers if they did. They could take advantage of the gov't pork trough on the other end, which is doing all that it can to induce companies like Remington to move. It might be able to abandon a hard-used, antiquated and contaminated physical plant.
Surly
Member
So what you are saying is that you would like to see the gubmit intervene and force the evil company to stay, right?
Maybe the gubmit can force a majority of the shares to be sold to the union to fix things and then we, the tax payers, can finance the losses when the company is running in the red (not meant to be pejorative). GM is an awesome company now because of this kind of intervention and the post office is the epitome of efficiency with taxpayer subsidies.
The gubmit should intervene in all aspects of out lives to make things better. What do we know, right?
I sort of doubt that the US government is offering incentives for companies to leave NY and move to Alabama.
Remington is smart. They get all kinds of tax incentives from the state of Alabama and they get out of the prohibitive costs of unionized labor in NY. In Alabama they can pay a semi-skilled worker $22 an hour and get high quality employees standing in line to work. At that pay rate you can make $45k per year which is decent money in Alabama because the cost of living is so much lower (though I can't speak specifically to the area where the new plant is). This is the reason that so many car companies are located in the Southeast now and Detroit is a cesspool.
Upstate New Yorkers don't tend to have the same mindset of the City dwellers so having a few more move to Bama is probably okay.
Remington is smart. They get all kinds of tax incentives from the state of Alabama and they get out of the prohibitive costs of unionized labor in NY. In Alabama they can pay a semi-skilled worker $22 an hour and get high quality employees standing in line to work. At that pay rate you can make $45k per year which is decent money in Alabama because the cost of living is so much lower (though I can't speak specifically to the area where the new plant is). This is the reason that so many car companies are located in the Southeast now and Detroit is a cesspool.
Upstate New Yorkers don't tend to have the same mindset of the City dwellers so having a few more move to Bama is probably okay.
Kynoch
member
Please don't ever try to speak for me again...
What I would like to see are those who bemoan the move of Bushmaster, Marlin and other Remington properties WHILE wetting their pants with glee at the mere prospect of Remington closing Ilion and going south, take a moment to actually ponder the incongruency of holding both views at the same time.
Remington Outdoor Products, Inc. is not a publicly traded company. There are no "shares." How is your sarcastic comment about taxpayer financing any different than state and local governments using taxpayer funds to essentially buy Remington a facility in Huntsville or Ruger a facility in Mayodan, NC? Ever think about this matter at a deeper level?
Was that one last attempt at levity?
Kynoch
member
Both Remington and Ruger have pumped state and local governments hard with regard to their recent acquisitions. Nothing like scarfing down at the taxpayer trough. Odd how some gorging is OK and other gorging is not in some peoples' eyes.
Remington isn't pulling out of Ilion, but if they did, I suspect one big reason would be to ditch their union. A union that has been on good terms with the company for generations. One that has served the company quite well.
Interesting comment about cesspools. Compared to Upstate, NY, I would suggest that Huntsville is a cesspool -- particularly in the summer.
Surly
Member
1. I'll speak my mind, thank you very much.
2. Individuals, businesses and corporations can relocate to wherever they choose, whenever they choose. If feelers get hurt, oh well. That's how it is and how it is supposed to be.
3. The difference is...if a locale wants to give incentives for a business to move in, create jobs and collect more taxes, more power to them. At least there will be a profit for the locale with taxes, employment, etc. instead of throwing taxpayer money at something that doesn't work, like the gubmit always does.
The "shares" was an example I threw out there. When all else fails, pick apart the argument and engage in semantics to confuse, right?
4. If you don't get it, that's not my problem.
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