So you find yourself in a 10 x10 cage with an armed maniac and no way out...

[JeffG]

Sounds pretty ridiculous, right? Well it happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

So I was on business travel and got into town late. I found a motel that was open (the previous three were booked due to the convention). This one wasn't great and it was across town but I only needed a place to sleep until the next morning.

I go into the office...a 10 x10 room with a glass entry door and a glass door to the main lobby, which has a security slide so only people with motel keys could open that door. The clerk was in an office behind plexiglass that you could slide credit cards and identification under to get a room.

A maid comes in from the lobby to go outside. She is an about 5'0" Hispanic woman. At the same time a large, angry guy comes in from the other door to the outside. He is about 6'0", about ~50 years old, muscular with a crew cut. He has a 7" KBAR on his right hip and is madder than hell at the maid. I suspect he was an ex-Marine because of his appearance and the fact that he had hand-written "USMC" on the knife sheath. He had a light jacket and it was possible he had a firearm as well as the knife.

He was screaming something about a camera, accusing the maid of stealing it. He kept saying that it was a $5,000 camera and was very upset. His face was reddened. The maid denied knowing about it and backed into the security door. The guy was in front of the entrance door to the outside world, effectively blocking the only way to escape. I was at the counter. The room was quite literally 10 x 10. I am not making this up. Two guys could not have laid down head to foot in that room.

I nodded at the clerk behind the glass and she read my mind, calling the police. I turned sideways with my right side to the clerk's counter and quietly unsnapped my holster on a Sig P230...a 380 ACP pistol that I carry everywhere. I suddenly wished I had opted to carry my .357 that morning.

The angry man kept accusing the maid of stealing the camera and she just kept repeating "No. No". I could tell that it was frustrating him. So I said something. I said a simple "What's up?" and he promptly said, "Shut the f up". I did not want to escalate the situation but I thought a simple statement reminding him that he was not alone might delay any violent reaction. I know that it could also have caused him to lose control. It was a calculated guess to buy time.

I made the decision that if he drew the knife I would shoot. I would not be able to use the sights at all since due to the close quarters extending the gun to arms length would be inviting him to take it. A hip shot isn't known for accuracy so I was worried that I could not down him with one shot of 380 ACP. He was so close that if he survived for more than a few seconds he would be able to stick that KBAR right through me. The Sig did have a grip laser which would have helped.

He kept yelling at the maid, the maid kept saying "no" and I just kept looking at him. Eventually he turned around and shoved the exit door (smacked it) open and left. The maid quickly turned around and swiped her card to open the security door and left. I turned around and the clerk was gone. I was alone in my cage.

The clerk eventually came back and gave me a card. I hung out in the lobby on the other side of the security door until the police arrived and then went to my room.

Later on that evening the clerk called me (she knew my room number, of course) to tell me that the cops found the guy's camera in the guy's car. She also thanked me for hanging around in the lobby.

So everything turned out ok but it still bothers me. I don't normally walk into a 10 x10 cage with no way out, especially at night on the wrong side of town. In that regard, I feel like an idiot. On the other hand, how was I supposed to get a room if I didn't go in to see the clerk?

I carry the Sig .380 religiously under the theory that carrying a gun that is carryable is better than a large unwieldily gun that stays in your safe. However, given the situation of that night I wonder if this is a good theory. I know that all handguns are fairly ineffective weapons in the regard of immediately dropping someone; that would most likely take a rifle. But I don't think that many people would be walking around with a rifle all day long. That would be awkward to say the least.

So what are your thoughts? What did I do right/wrong? That night could have easily gone sideways and I keep thinking about how I could of handled it better.

BTW, I am getting sick of business trips.

So what are your thoughts? What did I do right/wrong? That night could have easily gone sideways and I keep thinking about how I could of handled it better.

Right? Wrong? You survived, unscathed that's what's important. Calling attention to yourself during a rage event wasn't desireable. Let him fixed on his target until it's time to stop him, should that time come. Making a decision that you would shoot if he drew the knife, helped your mindset.
None of us were there. You did good. Glad you are ok.

 

[stillquietvoice]

A few years ago, in a Walmart parking lot, just before Christmas I heard a woman screaming " he stole my purse". A quick scan of the lot revealed the thief running. I chased him down. He had tossed the purse before I caught him but a couple found it under a car. He was 6' tall in his mid 20's, I'm 5' 6" and at the time 50 but tackled him any way and tried to hold him. My age showed I couldn't hold him long enough for le to arrive. Turned out he was armed took purse at knife point.

Something scared him badly when he got loose his eyes bugged out and he ran away.

The woman got her purse back with everything still inside she had the couple that recovered her purse takee to her so she could thank me. She cried was embarrassed cause she wet herself. Several women went into Walmart and got her dry clothes.

You did well. No one was hurt and you didn't have to use your carry gun either

 

[Bfh_auto]

Personally I think you did alright.

Probably should've said something else though. That particular guy is quite possibly normally fairly law abiding, he's just angry and not thinking momentarily because his blood was up over the "theft" of the camera. Get him to think and maybe he'll control himself and you wouldn't have to think about punching holes in him, you won't get any in yourself and you won't have to deal with the subsequent legal ramifications that go along with that.

Maybe something along the lines on "Maybe you should call the police" (but said in such a way with your voice inflected where he thinks that you're somewhat on his side and view the maid as a potential thief. This also introduces the police into the picture and gets him to view possibly assaulting her as a bad idea because the police will end up being called) or "This is going to go bad" (it's a warning in a couple different ways. I used that one in a slightly similar circumstance and the guy realized that it was going to be three on one and that I was probably armed and he left them and me alone).

I also didn't see any mention made of pepper spray. Not that you're going to use it on a knife weilder in uber close proximity to you inside a small room (which would essentially be suicide), but not every threat will be under that particular set of circumstances.

Are you still going to carry the .380? Or are you looking at a small subcompact 9mm, .40 or .45?

Looking at doing some training or drills in close quarters?

Pepper spray in a confined area is almost like spraying yourself in the face with it.
Like you said the OP did alright. All three went home in one piece.

 

[adcoch1]

At that distance, and in that situation a knife proof jacket would probably work better than a gun to keep you safe. Keeping your brain turned on probably kept you out of real danger there. Deescalation is always worth a shot, and even if you said the wrong thing that time at least you made him aware that there were others close by. I would bet that he didn't think he was being threatening to anyone but the maid, whom he felt deserved it. Truthfully you probably weren't in danger, but the scary part is how quickly that could of changed. Good for you for not losing your cool and making it worse! Glad everyone is ok too. What a mess..

Another thought, the guy may not have even remembered the knife was on his side. He is just a loudmouth otherwise, and the knife makes him a lethal threat. Lot to think about in this one. I think you did good!

 

[Trunk Monkey]

I begin to sing them the song of my people

I go into the office...a 10 x10 room with a glass entry door and a glass door to the main lobby, which has a security slide so only people with motel keys could open that door. The clerk was in an office behind plexiglass that you could slide credit cards and identification under to get a room.

Seriously, that should have been your first clue to find another motel.

 

[Ignition Override]

After seeing the Marine tattoo, I only would have asked "Maybe artillery, infantry?", and that's all. Nothing else at that point.

At least you Had the .380.
Did that guy apologize to anybody, as a Real Man would have done, after forgetting that the camera was in his car?

As Trunk Monkey stated, the structure and location of that motel easily indicated that trouble is much more likely. >A slight reduction in hotel/motel desirability (also: Never have a room with No hallway) equates to a really disproportionate increased exposure to the types of people you don't want to be near<. This is no exaggeration at all.

I stayed mostly in good or great hotels, constantly for thirty seven years.
Places like that by Atlanta Airport (usually directly under final approach or departure for Runway 10 or 9R-terrible jet engine noise) never allow a good night's sleep, even with mellow guests and solid walls.

 

[Kaybee]

A shame that you were there for his freak out, but didn’t get to see his face when they found the camera in his car. (I bet it was priceless)

 

[Kaybee]

Also, just a thought, another reason I prefer conceiled over open carry. Don’t need everyone considering me deadly threat if I raise my voice or do something that they perceive weird. (not that I act like that hothead)

 

[Browning]

Pepper spray in a confined area is almost like spraying yourself in the face with it.
Like you said the OP did alright. All three went home in one piece.

If you take the crook of your elbow and put it over your face while spraying it not only protects your chin/CNS from strikes it shields you some from breathing it in.

In all reality in some situations you'll catch some of your own spray no matter what. That's why it's a good idea to get sprayed yourself so you can fight through it.

Like I said though, in that situation I wouldn't have used it. Too close and at the very least he's very angry, has a large knife and there's very little room.

I also didn't see any mention made of pepper spray. Not that you're going to use it on a knife weilder in uber close proximity to you inside a small room (which would essentially be suicide), but not every threat will be under that particular set of circumstances.

In other situations I have. It just depends.

If I can avoid trouble in the first place I will.
If I can walk away from trouble, I will.
If I can defuse the situation verbally I will.
If it's night and white light disorients them and throws them off I'll go with that.
If I can run away and that's the tactic that's needed I'll run.
If I can drive away I'll do that. I'll drive on unused sidewalks, across lawns and scrape by other vehicles if need be to do so in some situations.
If pushing them away from my family or myself works I won't go further.
If I have to go hands on and strike I will.
If spraying them with pepper spray is what keeps me from shooting them I'll do that too.

If the situation immediately elevates itself to drawing a pistol or grabbing a long gun and immediately ending the threat while moving to cover or to escape then I'll do that.

It's just if your only tool is a hammer then everything looks like a nail.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

first to draw his gun gets to live.

Ummmm, no.

 

[Sovblocgunfan]

Never mind.

 

[Wisco]

first to draw his gun gets to live.

The opposite happened to me.

 

[.455_Hunter]

Deleted due to re-read of OP.

 

[SDGlock23]

A 380 is better than nothing but it's so far down the line of good options that I don't really see the point. There are small .40's and .45's than can be easily concealed and offer much better performance. I pack a G27 Gen4 around all the time, that's 10rds of .40 that can even be pocket carried if need be. The 357 SIG version is the G33 if you like it better.

 

[scaatylobo]

Sounds pretty ridiculous, right? Well it happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

So I was on business travel and got into town late. I found a motel that was open (the previous three were booked due to the convention). This one wasn't great and it was across town but I only needed a place to sleep until the next morning.

I go into the office...a 10 x10 room with a glass entry door and a glass door to the main lobby, which has a security slide so only people with motel keys could open that door. The clerk was in an office behind plexiglass that you could slide credit cards and identification under to get a room.

A maid comes in from the lobby to go outside. She is an about 5'0" Hispanic woman. At the same time a large, angry guy comes in from the other door to the outside. He is about 6'0", about ~50 years old, muscular with a crew cut. He has a 7" KBAR on his right hip and is madder than hell at the maid. I suspect he was an ex-Marine because of his appearance and the fact that he had hand-written "USMC" on the knife sheath. He had a light jacket and it was possible he had a firearm as well as the knife.

He was screaming something about a camera, accusing the maid of stealing it. He kept saying that it was a $5,000 camera and was very upset. His face was reddened. The maid denied knowing about it and backed into the security door. The guy was in front of the entrance door to the outside world, effectively blocking the only way to escape. I was at the counter. The room was quite literally 10 x 10. I am not making this up. Two guys could not have laid down head to foot in that room.

I nodded at the clerk behind the glass and she read my mind, calling the police. I turned sideways with my right side to the clerk's counter and quietly unsnapped my holster on a Sig P230...a 380 ACP pistol that I carry everywhere. I suddenly wished I had opted to carry my .357 that morning.

The angry man kept accusing the maid of stealing the camera and she just kept repeating "No. No". I could tell that it was frustrating him. So I said something. I said a simple "What's up?" and he promptly said, "Shut the f up". I did not want to escalate the situation but I thought a simple statement reminding him that he was not alone might delay any violent reaction. I know that it could also have caused him to lose control. It was a calculated guess to buy time.

I made the decision that if he drew the knife I would shoot. I would not be able to use the sights at all since due to the close quarters extending the gun to arms length would be inviting him to take it. A hip shot isn't known for accuracy so I was worried that I could not down him with one shot of 380 ACP. He was so close that if he survived for more than a few seconds he would be able to stick that KBAR right through me. The Sig did have a grip laser which would have helped.

He kept yelling at the maid, the maid kept saying "no" and I just kept looking at him. Eventually he turned around and shoved the exit door (smacked it) open and left. The maid quickly turned around and swiped her card to open the security door and left. I turned around and the clerk was gone. I was alone in my cage.

The clerk eventually came back and gave me a card. I hung out in the lobby on the other side of the security door until the police arrived and then went to my room.

Later on that evening the clerk called me (she knew my room number, of course) to tell me that the cops found the guy's camera in the guy's car. She also thanked me for hanging around in the lobby.

So everything turned out ok but it still bothers me. I don't normally walk into a 10 x10 cage with no way out, especially at night on the wrong side of town. In that regard, I feel like an idiot. On the other hand, how was I supposed to get a room if I didn't go in to see the clerk?

I carry the Sig .380 religiously under the theory that carrying a gun that is carryable is better than a large unwieldily gun that stays in your safe. However, given the situation of that night I wonder if this is a good theory. I know that all handguns are fairly ineffective weapons in the regard of immediately dropping someone; that would most likely take a rifle. But I don't think that many people would be walking around with a rifle all day long. That would be awkward to say the least.

So what are your thoughts? What did I do right/wrong? That night could have easily gone sideways and I keep thinking about how I could of handled it better.

BTW, I am getting sick of business trips.

I hope you do know that regardless of what handgun you had on you [ other than "possibly" a S&W 500 magnum ] you could not have stopped him dead in his tracks with anything other than a brain shot !.

So in that close a CQC situation,a real hand to hand skill set would be the real deal.

Very happy you did not shoot him,you would have very well been in VERY DEEP POO.As far as survival goes.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I am not willing to walk (or run) away and leave a defenseless person facing an armed and furious person

Just no.

 

[OneFreeTexan]

Just curious.......5 or six shots to ‘that’ groin area??/. What caliber is necessary to end the fight??

 

[Rifleman173]

Bigger bore pistols, in small rooms, do have their advantages in some situations. So do headshots at close range. Keep in mind, that if you do shoot a pistol in a small confining space like a 10 by 10 room, your hearing is going to be messed up for many, many days. Kind of makes one want to go practice more often...

 

[Zaydok Allen]

As far as I’m concerned you did everything right except choosing to stay in a shady motel in a crappy part of town. Though I choose a 9mm as a minimum. Not going to debate your choice though. Business casual for me looks like I’m going on a weekend camping trip.

It happens though. I once stayed in a Days Inn on the south side of Chicago. Heard several gun shots several minutes apart. Sirens all night. Barricaded my door that night.

Never again.

Glad you and the maid are ok.

 

[Trunk Monkey]

Keep in mind, that if you do shoot a pistol in a small confining space like a 10 by 10 room, your hearing is going to be messed up for THE REST OFYOUR LIFE.

FIFY

 

[Labguy47]

Never shoot a large caliber man with a small caliber bullet.

 

[GBExpat]

I think that you handled that intense situation well, Flechette. Good job!

 

[straightshooterjake]

I am glad everything worked out for the OP, and I certainly understand the consideration of a larger gun. However, it is important to understand the general stopping power of handguns, and the reality is, no handguns will consistently provide instantaneous stops. This is just the nature of small bullets at moderate velocities. Unfortunately, life has risks, and some things always just come down to luck. Good planning and training can greatly increase our "luck," but it will never take luck out of the equation. This is just the nature of life.

For anyone who is not a hunter, I recommend talking to an experienced hunter about recovering game animals. When whitetails are well shot with a 30-30, sometimes they drop, and sometimes they run quite a ways. These are generally animals under 150 lb, and they are no tougher than a 200 lb person. And a 30-30 round has far more power than any service handgun. If a deer runs 100 yards, that means that it would have had plenty of energy to attack you with a K-bar if it had chosen to do so. Even a very short run, like 40 yards, means it had strength for a few seconds.

A scary event, such as happened to the OP, is an excellent time to re-evaluate strategy, tactics, and gear. And if one prefers changes in their everyday carry items, then that is a fine choice. But no gear can insure a positive outcome, and for some people, gear that is easy to carry will still be the best option.

 

[Flechette]

As far as I’m concerned you did everything right except choosing to stay in a shady motel in a crappy part of town. Though I choose a 9mm as a minimum. Not going to debate your choice though. Business casual for me looks like I’m going on a weekend camping trip.

It happens though. I once stayed in a Days Inn on the south side of Chicago. Heard several gun shots several minutes apart. Sirens all night. Barricaded my door that night.

Never again.

Glad you and the maid are ok.

Believe it or not, I did pass on some motels that were even more "shady" than this one that night. By comparison it looked alright.

 

[Flechette]

Are you now considering something more than your 380 for daily carry?

I am considering carrying my .357 more often. It is a S&W scandium with a 3 1/8th inch barrel so it gets pretty good muzzle velocity compared to a snubby. It gives about 50% more energy than a typical 9mm and about twice as much as a typical .380. It actually weighs nearly identically to the Sig. It is also pretty thin. Other than the cylinder it is thinner than the Sig. If the cylinder is placed right above the belt line it is pretty comfortable. Both are much thinner than a typical 9mm and thus I find it more comfortable and easier to conceal.

One possible advantage is that being a revolver it has no slide. In really close quarters a slide might not be able to cycle adequately and the pistol would jam after one shot.

The downside for the S&W is only five shots. Yes, it kicks.

The Sig .380 has 7+1 shots. I like it a lot and it is very comfortable to carry all day.

Neither of these guns have ever jammed or misfired on me.