So you find yourself in a 10 x10 cage with an armed maniac and no way out...

[Browning]

Again, it was a factor in being prosecuted to begin with and an issue at the trial. Certainly not the only factor but it was a factor.

I disagree.

If you'd like to talk about it just PM me. This thread doesn't have much to do with the 10mm or Mr Fish's shooting.

 

[BSA1]

I am considering carrying my .357 more often. It is a S&W scandium with a 3 1/8th inch barrel so it gets pretty good muzzle velocity compared to a snubby. It gives about 50% more energy than a typical 9mm and about twice as much as a typical .380.

One possible advantage is that being a revolver it has no slide. In really close quarters a slide might not be able to cycle adequately and the pistol would jam after one shot.

The downside for the S&W is only five shots. Yes, it kicks.

Many years ago a LEO friend was checking a burglary alarm at a Pharmacy and encounter the prep. The prep took off running with the Officer catching him after a foot chase. They got into a struggle and the Officer fell down with the prep on top of him. My friend said he is not sure why he went down. He said it could have from the slick grass they were on or he was overpowered. Anyway he is flat on his back with the prep on top of him beating on him. Fearing for his life he drew his S&W Model 29 loaded with 44 Special reloads, jammed it into the attackers lower body and pulled the trigger.

What happened next was totally unexpected. He said the gun went "pop" instead of a loud bang and my friend feared he had a misfire. He was about to pull the trigger again when the prep said "You shot me" and stopped his attack. Backup arrived along with EMS and the prep still fought the officers before being transported to the hospital.

The internal damage to the prep was massive. The gunshot went into his liver and passed completely through his body, The bullet was not recovered. The "pop" was the result of the muzzle of the gun being jammed so tightly against the preps body that all of the muzzle blast (fire, burning and unburnt power) went inside his body. The Doctors almost succeeded in killing the prep. Over the next two weeks he underwent surgery at least four times as the Doctors removed more and more of his liver. He ended up losing either half or 2/3 of it. He was a parole violator from California and when he finally healed up enough they sent him back to California without filing any charges. The D.A. decided begin shot up was punishment enough.

The lessons he learned are:

One shot stops are a myth. My friend says he wished he had kept pulling the trigger as the prep as the prep was never physically shut down by the shot.

Big bores are not always better. At the time we read all of Keith and Skeeter Skelton and believed big holes and the 44 Special. Back then the only 44 Special factory ammo was RNL so he was using reloads using a Semi-wadcutter bullet.

As a result he switched to carrying a S&W Model 27 loaded with hot factory 125 gr. JHP's.

Reloads are bad idea. This incident happened many years ago and while it was ruled a good shoot he was warned about carrying reloads in the future.

Later in his career he was involved in a 2nd shoot when a prep that was apparently planning on kidnapping and raping a nurse as they came off duty at a hospital tried to run him down when officers approached his car. He was underwhelmed by the performance of the 40 caliber Glock the department had switched too. He was only able to fire one shot which was deflected and hit the dash instead of the driver. A .357 Magnum would have probably went straight through.

This is one of the reasons I carry the Beretta 92FS. The extended barrel gives me reliability in close quarters combat. In your situation closing the distance would prevent the attacker from effectively using his knife. With the Beretta I can jam the muzzle against his and pull the trigger with the expectation the gun will keep functioning.

I carry Hornady's excellent 124 gr. +P XTP round as it gives me more power for deeper penetration.

As I said one shot stops is a myth. 15 rounds of 9mm greatly improves the chances of shutting the attacker down quickly.

I discourage your interest in the lightweight S&W. As you say it has a lot of muzzle flip from it's light weight and muzzle blast from the short barrel. Accurate, quick follow-up shots will be difficult. I would choose a steel K-Frame with 3" barrel which also gives you 6 instead of 5 shots. And practice, practice, practice.

 

[il_10]

With the Beretta I can jam the muzzle against his and pull the trigger with the expectation the gun will keep functioning.

With most locked breech semiautomatic handgun designs pushing the barrel into something will push the slide out of battery enough that it won't fire without a 'standoff' device designed to prevent this. I don't have a beretta 92, are they immune to this?


OP: That's a scary situation. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and it sounds like you being home and safe to type up the post is proof enough that you handled this one the right way.

 

[WestKentucky]

No matter what anybody says, right, wrong or indifferent, you sensed things that words cannot describe, and you reacted with the full knowledge of what you sensed. If nothing else your comment to the guy threw him off from what was his target at the time and diverted his attention to give her time to make any moves she thought necessary to protect herself.

My only word of caution, when you tense up like that and are preparing yourself, you may get the order of operations wrong. You did well by unsnapping, but a jerking motion to draw while “prepared” may cause a foot or leg to develop a leak whereas a reactive instinctive draw may be more smooth and is more likely to get order of operations right... bad guy develops the leak.

 

[BSA1]

I don't have a beretta 92, are they immune to this?

Yep. Google a picture of the 92FS or the M-9 and you will see why.

 

[WheelGunMan]

I c

Sounds pretty ridiculous, right? Well it happened to me a couple of weeks ago.

So I was on business travel and got into town late. I found a motel that was open (the previous three were booked due to the convention). This one wasn't great and it was across town but I only needed a place to sleep until the next morning.

I go into the office...a 10 x10 room with a glass entry door and a glass door to the main lobby, which has a security slide so only people with motel keys could open that door. The clerk was in an office behind plexiglass that you could slide credit cards and identification under to get a room.

A maid comes in from the lobby to go outside. She is an about 5'0" Hispanic woman. At the same time a large, angry guy comes in from the other door to the outside. He is about 6'0", about ~50 years old, muscular with a crew cut. He has a 7" KBAR on his right hip and is madder than hell at the maid. I suspect he was an ex-Marine because of his appearance and the fact that he had hand-written "USMC" on the knife sheath. He had a light jacket and it was possible he had a firearm as well as the knife.

He was screaming something about a camera, accusing the maid of stealing it. He kept saying that it was a $5,000 camera and was very upset. His face was reddened. The maid denied knowing about it and backed into the security door. The guy was in front of the entrance door to the outside world, effectively blocking the only way to escape. I was at the counter. The room was quite literally 10 x 10. I am not making this up. Two guys could not have laid down head to foot in that room.

I nodded at the clerk behind the glass and she read my mind, calling the police. I turned sideways with my right side to the clerk's counter and quietly unsnapped my holster on a Sig P230...a 380 ACP pistol that I carry everywhere. I suddenly wished I had opted to carry my .357 that morning.

The angry man kept accusing the maid of stealing the camera and she just kept repeating "No. No". I could tell that it was frustrating him. So I said something. I said a simple "What's up?" and he promptly said, "Shut the f up". I did not want to escalate the situation but I thought a simple statement reminding him that he was not alone might delay any violent reaction. I know that it could also have caused him to lose control. It was a calculated guess to buy time.

I made the decision that if he drew the knife I would shoot. I would not be able to use the sights at all since due to the close quarters extending the gun to arms length would be inviting him to take it. A hip shot isn't known for accuracy so I was worried that I could not down him with one shot of 380 ACP. He was so close that if he survived for more than a few seconds he would be able to stick that KBAR right through me. The Sig did have a grip laser which would have helped.

He kept yelling at the maid, the maid kept saying "no" and I just kept looking at him. Eventually he turned around and shoved the exit door (smacked it) open and left. The maid quickly turned around and swiped her card to open the security door and left. I turned around and the clerk was gone. I was alone in my cage.

The clerk eventually came back and gave me a card. I hung out in the lobby on the other side of the security door until the police arrived and then went to my room.

Later on that evening the clerk called me (she knew my room number, of course) to tell me that the cops found the guy's camera in the guy's car. She also thanked me for hanging around in the lobby.

So everything turned out ok but it still bothers me. I don't normally walk into a 10 x10 cage with no way out, especially at night on the wrong side of town. In that regard, I feel like an idiot. On the other hand, how was I supposed to get a room if I didn't go in to see the clerk?

I carry the Sig .380 religiously under the theory that carrying a gun that is carryable is better than a large unwieldily gun that stays in your safe. However, given the situation of that night I wonder if this is a good theory. I know that all handguns are fairly ineffective weapons in the regard of immediately dropping someone; that would most likely take a rifle. But I don't think that many people would be walking around with a rifle all day long. That would be awkward to say the least.

So what are your thoughts? What did I do right/wrong? That night could have easily gone sideways and I keep thinking about how I could of handled it better.

BTW, I am getting sick of business trips.

I could only HOPE that if I'm ever in that situation again that I handle it as calmly and reasonably as you did.

I was in a similar situation years ago where I was an instructor at a technical institute in Detroit. The majority of the students were there looking for a way out of the of life in the streets. One morning a disagreement started between two students who had no love for one another and quickly escalated into a shouting match. One pulled a knife on the other. The other student said "I can top that" and left the classroom. While he was gone the one with the knife positioned himself behind me at the podium and the door with knife still drawn awaiting the others return. Everyone assumed he was going to get a gun. I tried to calm the situation by speaking to the student with drawn knife, but he wasn't in the mood to hear any of it. The other student returned with his hand in his pocket, and we all assumed that he was holding onto a gun. I must admit when he walked back into the room with his hand in his pocket and squared up with the other one the only thing that was between them was the podium and me. I have never been so scared in my life as I was at that very moment. The only thing I could do was to try and talk calmly to them and state that there were other ways to settle their differences...the whole time I felt my boys pulling up deeper into my crotch and my knees were weak and shaky. The situation was finally diffused by other students who were members from the same community and the two parties exited the building via separate doors. The police were immediately called and of course, both students were terminated from the program.

Back then the only carry permit allowed was to and from the range and open carry while hunting. To get any other permit you had to go thru the Sheriff review board and either had to be a store owner carrying deposits or well connected. Of course carrying in any learning institution was considered a cardinal sin.

 

[il_10]

Yep. Google a picture of the 92FS or the M-9 and you will see why.

I've handled and fired several, but don't have one here for reference. It looks like the barrel recoils with the slide, dropping the locking lugs down into the frame to release the slide, which would mean the barrel could be pushed backwards to push it out of battery unless I'm missing something.

I'd certainly be interested in knowing why it doesn't, as I keep a Jericho 941 as a home defense gun for the same reason. In that case it's the full dust cover which prevents muzzle contact from pushing it out of battery. A failure-to-fire due to being out of battery at contact distance would be a bad, bad thing.

 

[Ignition Override]

old lady new shooter: Here's one reason to avoid rooms with only outside doors:
This was about fifteen years ago. A guy I know was at a La Quinta 'hotel' in the northern part of Jackson MS, by I-55.

The first thing that happened: a guy knocked on his door and a stranger said "You left your key in the door". "G." thanked the stranger, and soon after the door was closed (probably just barely jammed) two guys opened it, abruptly walked into his room. The victim was robbed at gunpoint.

A much worse danger is when women's rooms are near blind corners, ice machines etc. Totally different subject, but a flight attendant in this scenario - Nancy Ludwig - was found murdered in her room, DTW Airport, around '90.

 

[old lady new shooter]

There was also a case a few years ago, husband and wife in their late 60's, the wife was I think a former police officer and the husband I think former CIA, some @#$% got into their motel room from the adjacent parking lot, husband had been in the shower but came right out and engaged the @#$%, got hit four times but @#$% ended up dead. He might have been retired but he definitely hadn't lost his chops.

I might be getting the former professions not exactly right, probably someone here remembers the details better than I do.