So you find yourself in a 10 x10 cage with an armed maniac and no way out...

[Flechette]

Are you still going to carry the .380? Or are you looking at a small subcompact 9mm, .40 or .45?

Looking at doing some training or drills in close quarters?

I am considering going to something more powerful. For me it is difficult to carry a full sized gun concealed, especially during the summer when it gets hot. Many times I have had people ask why I don't take my jacket off when it is 90F.

I have done some close quarter drills. I am pretty confident that I could get off a few rounds and hit a man-sized target at close range. However, hitting a vital organ as opposed to a gut shot is less likely. There would be little chance to aim.

I guess the reason I am considering a change is that this guy was big, strong and angry, not a skinny junky looking for some quick cash.

 

[Flechette]

It sounds like you handled it about as well as it could have been handled. I agree that the pistol you have with you is much better than the bigger more powerful one that is not with you. Are your business trips planed enough in advance that you can call ahead and make reservations? Just trying to think of a way to avoid the seedier parts of town.

This one was on short notice so I did not get a chance to make reservations. The motel was not the worst one I looked at that night (believe it or not!) and was about 10 miles away from the convention. The better motels I stopped at were full.

 

[Flechette]

How high can you jump?

Let's see, the guy was about 6'0", probably close to a 3' arm reach and a 7" knife...not that high.

 

[scaatylobo]

I am considering going to something more powerful. For me it is difficult to carry a full sized gun concealed, especially during the summer when it gets hot. Many times I have had people ask why I don't take my jacket off when it is 90F.

I have done some close quarter drills. I am pretty confident that I could get off a few rounds and hit a man-sized target at close range. However, hitting a vital organ as opposed to a gut shot is less likely. There would be little chance to aim.

I guess the reason I am considering a change is that this guy was big, strong and angry, not a skinny junky looking for some quick cash.

FACT [ google it if you don't want to believe me ] that NO SHOTS unless brain stem,would STOP that man from tearing you up till he bled out.

Sorry but that is fact,and I would have been better armed [ always am ] and still would be praying that I don't need to do a mag dump at point blank in hopes it would work.

And HELL YES to whoever mentioned being a bit deaf for life after that mag dump.

 

[ancientnoob]

I have a good friend (an older gentleman) whom was in a similar situation a number of years ago. He used to carry a Walther PPKS in .380 Auto. After the encounter he opted to carry something with a bit more oomf, and the PPKS was relegated to the safe. He always advised me to do the same. As far I am concerned something is better than nothing, and a .380 is better than just something.

OP I think you handled yourself well. Kudos to you. Carry the magnum.

 

[Casefull]

I like to relate the true story of the Alaskan hunter who shot a grizzly with his 30 06. The grizzly then killed him and was found a hundred yards away where said grizzly expired.
Remember why the Marines started using 45 ACP as a 38 was not getting the job done before tribal attacker was hacking on the Marine. Wasn't that in the Philippines?
I'm not saying a 380 is insufficient but that confined space stuff is not good. It's not like we can carry a sawed off shotgun in our pants.

 

[JeffG]

Just curious.......5 or six shots to ‘that’ groin area??/. What caliber is necessary to end the fight??

I'm not here to second guess anyone. However, if you intentionally shoot an area other that center mass or central nervous system, you may invite questions. Questions such as, "You were so afraid of the threat this guy presented, you shot him in the (groin) (shoulder) (hand) (knee) or were there other options that you ignored?

On another note, when going to someone else's aid, please quickly assess if the help you are offering, and the risk you are taking, is worth the jeopardy you are putting yourself into. Picking a victim off the pavement, with the perp some distance away is one thing. Chasing a robber down, and getting a screwdriver in the liver for $20 in a purse, is quite another. Getting into a shoot at that point, might cause an attorney to claim that you created the situation. Some things to consider.

How would your spouse/family react to you winding up in ICU, or out of work for 6 months?

 

[Fiv3r]

FACT [ google it if you don't want to believe me ] that NO SHOTS unless brain stem,would STOP that man from tearing you up till he bled out.

Sorry but that is fact,and I would have been better armed [ always am ] and still would be praying that I don't need to do a mag dump at point blank in hopes it would work.

And HELL YES to whoever mentioned being a bit deaf for life after that mag dump.

You're isolating the situation down to one data point as a fact. Respectfully, that's not sound. If shoot a larger, angry guy with my .380 in the gut who is completely intent on running me through, you're probably right, I'm skewered. I'm dead, he might be dead. It's bad.

However, we live in a world of extraneous variables. The guy was angry but maybe not a full on lunatic. If the guy was a marine, I'm sure he knows what a gun can do to him. He may be very, very angry with this made, but if a gun is drawn that $5000 camera might not seem like a big deal and he backs away...or maybe he gores you like a wild hog. No way of knowing. Presentation might win the day. Pain from flesh wound may take the fight out of him before he ramps up. A wild random shot to his pelvis might cripple him to the floor before he can take two steps and lunge.

Maybe the same situation a guy is carrying a Glock 19 in a fast draw holster with 3 17 round mags on his belt and practices at the range every day on his lunch hour and has taken a tactical shooting course. In the situation, it does go sideways and he draws...click. The universe chambers a 1 in 2000 dud for him to ponder on as the tip of the kabar pokes out the small of his back. Not likely, but Fate seems to like getting an ironic chuckle at my expense from time to time.

I totally get what you are saying, and I agree. A bigger weapon would increase the odds. However, in a 10 by 10, short of a shotgun held at the ready, I would put money on the guy with a knife. It's not about who wins, it's about who doesnt die. I think short of round of OO, both combatants are dead regardless of the caliber in a 10' area. I mean, we pour over data of penetration and wound channels of high end bullet designs. The wound channel of a kabar is 1.5" wide, 7" deep and doesnt require any aiming as it will rip a fatal hole faster than a rifle. The guy might be dead and not known it, but shooter who has been pig stuck probably knows in short order that his ticket has been punched.

I'm not a knife fighter, soldier, cop, nor have I been trained in any martial arts short of high school wrestling. However I'm a fairly beefy guy at a lean 200lbs who lifts weights a bit. In that situation I think I would almost rather have my hands free to keep him from gutting me and hope that even a few of the old wrist control moves I learned 25 years ago would keep him from killing me. I can tell you I, personally, would certainly have a better chance of at least getting out of the situation only cut to ribbons and not dead from being run through by muscling my way through rather than relying on my shooting skill of any caliber. That's a knock on my shoddy skill to defend myself and not those who carry a larger gun. My SD MO is to empty my mag into whatever is attacking me while backing away chanting a mantra on "oh (curse word of choice)" over and over.

10x10 is just going to be a bloodbath if the assailant doesnt have a one sided advantage.

 

[Rifleman173]

Fiver, you're right about this situation being one of where it's about who does not die. The key for such an event is getting plenty of practice and having the right gear for "the right social occasion." After all, you don't want to go tap dancing while wearing combat boots, right?

In a tight situation a 9 mm pistol or a .380 caliber pistol works best if you can do a high speed dumping of a lot of rounds into the center mass of the target and put a couple into the skull/brain cavity. In other words, the old Mozambique Shooting Scenario. The idea is to disrupt the CNS (central nervous system) as quick as possible to bring a hasty end to the confrontation. With a bigger bore pistol you're depending on the size of the ammo to be more efficient and to do more damage to the CNS in a shorter time period. Both theories will work but you have to adjust your tactics for the caliber or type of firearm that you carry. To get into a fight with a big ape who may or may not have been force fed steroids as a young'un isn't any kind of a pleasant idea for any of us. The thing to remember about any pistol is that they are always and will always be a weak sister compared to a decent rifle or shotgun for most shooting needs. I have never considered my handguns as a primary weapon but rather as a back-up or secondary firearm to my rifle or shotgun. Since a shotgun was not available, then the handgun became the defacto weapon of choice for this situation.

When I read about situations like this one, which involves a 10 by 10 room, it makes me think about me finding myself in such a situation. It causes me to review what I carry and why I carry what I carry for my concealed firearms. I also force myself to review my tactics. The idea of a big guy with a Kabar doesn't sound real appealing to me at all even with a high cap 9 or a big bore .45 caliber pistol. I don't know but I think that the original poster came out of this incident okay and did it right. You can't fault success with or without a .380 acp pistol.

 

[Browning]

I am considering going to something more powerful. For me it is difficult to carry a full sized gun concealed, especially during the summer when it gets hot. Many times I have had people ask why I don't take my jacket off when it is 90F.

I have done some close quarter drills. I am pretty confident that I could get off a few rounds and hit a man-sized target at close range. However, hitting a vital organ as opposed to a gut shot is less likely. There would be little chance to aim.

I'm curious about why you feel that you must have a jacket on in order to successfully conceal a pistol.

Year round I successfully carry either a Glock 26.3 9mm or a Glock 23.4 .40 S&W in TX (one of the more sweat producing States in the US) in IWB holsters concealed by nothing more than a t-shirt.

Sometimes I just carry a Walther PPS 9mm in a pocket holster. Depends on what I'm doing and where I'm going.

I guess the reason I am considering a change is that this guy was big, strong and angry, not a skinny junky looking for some quick cash.

Attackers come in all shapes and sizes. They have all sorts of motivations too.

Not all of them revolve around cash or drug use. Not all of them are against people with no training, skills or physical conditioning either.

 

[Wisco]

I was recently talking about how I was really liking the 10mm lately and wanting more options for it and a LGS clerk/ninja matter-of-factly stated it didn’t matter what I shot him with, I’d still be dead when he got to me and before he succumbed to his wounds.

That assumes I’m going to just stand there and let him kill me and not fight back, but it also addresses that if someone is determined, there’s fight left after being shot.

You were in life threatening situation and the other person drew first on you and survive ? Please do tell.

I wasn’t sure about sharing, but here it goes...

This was in Iraq - I shot two AK wielding Iraqis with 9mm NATO from an M11.

It was unpleasant, but the sake of sharing what pistols do and don’t do to people, one guy took two to the torso, two more to the torso and one to the upper lip. He stopped immediately at that last shot. The other guy, two to the torso, two more to the torso and one to the cheek/face/side of the head, the the rest of the mag to his his torso. I’m not going to pretend whether I know or not that every round was a great hit, but the second guy, he had at least five rounds in his chest, one in his face and was still moving on the ground, crying.

Had either or both of the guys started shooting faster than they did, kept advancing, had some fortitude, they could’ve easily killed me. I’ve never been shot in the chest and most people haven’t, so it’s honestly a little phony to say that you can shoot me, but I’ll still get you and you’ll die. Anyway, that was a scary reload, although I didn’t need more rounds at that point. I think they were mostly just scared, having run into me as they were attempting to flank another position, before they realized they were being shot up.

It was scary then and still is to think about now. At least I didn’t freeze up, poop or pee my trousers, and I hit what I needed to. It’s nothing good bourbon and some self-reflection hasn’t fixed, mostly.

My takeaways?

Handguns are a last resort and comparatively weak.

Don’t over-rely on other security. The young national guard soldier supposed to be pulling security for me was behind cover, cowering, with an M4 while I engaged rifle carrying guys with my sidearm. You can only really ever count on yourself.

You might just default to your training. For me that was controlled pairs, failure drills, and strings of five or more for targets that need it. Had I not practiced drawing and controlled pairs a thousand times, I might be dead.

Be able to physically defend yourself when it happens - had those guys reached me, I would’ve had to fight with a knife or hands. That’s exhausting for in shape people. It’s impossible for out of shape people against in shape people. Would’ve been easier at 23 than now in my mid 30s and later at 45/55/65+.

Don’t discount the psychological impact of harming other people and don’t let violence become your default as a problem solver.

 

[Dibbs]

Food for thought.
I'll be traveling, in a few weeks.
The Makarov is lighter and easier, but the 357 snubbie does pack a punch...

 

[JeffG]

Handguns are a last resort and comparatively weak.

That's the crux of it.

 

[stillquietvoice]

I was recently talking about how I was really liking the 10mm lately and wanting more options for it and a LGS clerk/ninja matter-of-factly stated it didn’t matter what I shot him with, I’d still be dead when he got to me and before he succumbed to his wounds.

That assumes I’m going to just stand there and let him kill me and not fight back, but it also addresses that if someone is determined, there’s fight left after being shot.



I wasn’t sure about sharing, but here it goes...

This was in Iraq - I shot two AK wielding Iraqis with 9mm NATO from an M11.

It was unpleasant, but the sake of sharing what pistols do and don’t do to people, one guy took two to the torso, two more to the torso and one to the upper lip. He stopped immediately at that last shot. The other guy, two to the torso, two more to the torso and one to the cheek/face/side of the head, the the rest of the mag to his his torso. I’m not going to pretend whether I know or not that every round was a great hit, but the second guy, he had at least five rounds in his chest, one in his face and was still moving on the ground, crying.

Had either or both of the guys started shooting faster than they did, kept advancing, had some fortitude, they could’ve easily killed me. I’ve never been shot in the chest and most people haven’t, so it’s honestly a little phony to say that you can shoot me, but I’ll still get you and you’ll die. Anyway, that was a scary reload, although I didn’t need more rounds at that point. I think they were mostly just scared, having run into me as they were attempting to flank another position, before they realized they were being shot up.

It was scary then and still is to think about now. At least I didn’t freeze up, poop or pee my trousers, and I hit what I needed to. It’s nothing good bourbon and some self-reflection hasn’t fixed, mostly.

My takeaways?

Handguns are a last resort and comparatively weak.

Don’t over-rely on other security. The young national guard soldier supposed to be pulling security for me was behind cover, cowering, with an M4 while I engaged rifle carrying guys with my sidearm. You can only really ever count on yourself.

You might just default to your training. For me that was controlled pairs, failure drills, and strings of five or more for targets that need it. Had I not practiced drawing and controlled pairs a thousand times, I might be dead.

Be able to physically defend yourself when it happens - had those guys reached me, I would’ve had to fight with a knife or hands. That’s exhausting for in shape people. It’s impossible for out of shape people against in shape people. Would’ve been easier at 23 than now in my mid 30s and later at 45/55/65+.

Don’t discount the psychological impact of harming other people and don’t let violence become your default as a problem solver.

Glad you made it out of that mess. Thanks for your service.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I have yet to talk to someone or read where the person said after being forced to use their pistol in self-defense "I sure am glad I didn't use a more powerful gun."

Talk to Harold Fish.

 

[Browning]

Talk to Harold Fish.

It was more of a problem with the SD law in AZ at the time than anything. That's been remedied.

I know the firearms related media has made it solely about the "way too powerful 10mm", but that's not really true.

 

[theotherwaldo]

I don't believe that any repeating weapon that can be carried in one hand or is concealable on the body can be considered to be excessively powerful against an assailant - unless it is too powerful to be controlled.

You are responsible for every round that you fire.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

I know the firearms related media has made it solely about the "way too powerful 10mm", but that's not really true.

I think you're missing the point. It wasn't solely about the 10mm but it was undeniably a factor. I expect he would have loved to go back in time and avoid the situation or barring that use a more common weapon (although iirc Mr. Fish has recently passed so I can't ask him).

 

[Flechette]

I'm curious about why you feel that you must have a jacket on in order to successfully conceal a pistol.

Year round I successfully carry either a Glock 26.3 9mm or a Glock 23.4 .40 S&W in TX (one of the more sweat producing States in the US) in IWB holsters concealed by nothing more than a t-shirt.

Sometimes I just carry a Walther PPS 9mm in a pocket holster. Depends on what I'm doing and where I'm going.

In my experience carrying a gun IWB with a t-shirt is ineffective as it seems that the t-shirt prints too easily and/or it gets snagged on the pistol's butt when I bend over or move in a way that allows the shirt to snag the butt. Thus, I tend to carry a shoulder rig (where my weak arm can cover the gun to prevent printing) or an IWB with a shirt that extends well below my belt (like a light jacket or heavy flannel shirt).

I have carried a gun in my pocket on many occasions but have to be very conscientious about it at all times. I once had a gun fall out of my pocket when sitting. I managed to keep my cool and pick it up without anyone noticing.

I do have a daytimer type holster but rarely use it as I worry that I would set it down and forget it and/or someone might snatch it from me.

So in the summer I either carry in my pocket (and constantly worry about it) or put my trusty little .380 in an IWB holster deep enough that the butt of the gun is virtually level with my belt. This makes for a slow draw but reduces the probability of printing).

On the night in question I had a light jacket and the Sig .380 in an outside the waste band holster: very comfortable and easier draw.

 

[Sulaco]

I didn't read all of the posts (I usually don't because the "experts" show up and I can't tolerate all the good advice...) but just wanted to add that as soon as I read your post and see you were carrying a 380 I figured somewhere along the way you'd be re-evaluating that caliber choice.

Just my opinion but I figure out how to carry the gun I can depend on in a worst case scenario, not a best case, most comfortable to carry scenario. Just my two cents.

 

[Sulaco]

I was recently talking about how I was really liking the 10mm lately and wanting more options for it and a LGS clerk/ninja matter-of-factly stated it didn’t matter what I shot him with, I’d still be dead when he got to me and before he succumbed to his wounds.

That assumes I’m going to just stand there and let him kill me and not fight back, but it also addresses that if someone is determined, there’s fight left after being shot.



I wasn’t sure about sharing, but here it goes...

This was in Iraq - I shot two AK wielding Iraqis with 9mm NATO from an M11.

It was unpleasant, but the sake of sharing what pistols do and don’t do to people, one guy took two to the torso, two more to the torso and one to the upper lip. He stopped immediately at that last shot. The other guy, two to the torso, two more to the torso and one to the cheek/face/side of the head, the the rest of the mag to his his torso. I’m not going to pretend whether I know or not that every round was a great hit, but the second guy, he had at least five rounds in his chest, one in his face and was still moving on the ground, crying.

Had either or both of the guys started shooting faster than they did, kept advancing, had some fortitude, they could’ve easily killed me. I’ve never been shot in the chest and most people haven’t, so it’s honestly a little phony to say that you can shoot me, but I’ll still get you and you’ll die. Anyway, that was a scary reload, although I didn’t need more rounds at that point. I think they were mostly just scared, having run into me as they were attempting to flank another position, before they realized they were being shot up.

It was scary then and still is to think about now. At least I didn’t freeze up, poop or pee my trousers, and I hit what I needed to. It’s nothing good bourbon and some self-reflection hasn’t fixed, mostly.

My takeaways?

Handguns are a last resort and comparatively weak.

Don’t over-rely on other security. The young national guard soldier supposed to be pulling security for me was behind cover, cowering, with an M4 while I engaged rifle carrying guys with my sidearm. You can only really ever count on yourself.

You might just default to your training. For me that was controlled pairs, failure drills, and strings of five or more for targets that need it. Had I not practiced drawing and controlled pairs a thousand times, I might be dead.

Be able to physically defend yourself when it happens - had those guys reached me, I would’ve had to fight with a knife or hands. That’s exhausting for in shape people. It’s impossible for out of shape people against in shape people. Would’ve been easier at 23 than now in my mid 30s and later at 45/55/65+.

Don’t discount the psychological impact of harming other people and don’t let violence become your default as a problem solver.

"Handguns are a last resort and comparatively weak." This should be the first thing everyone who carries concealed should learn. It's the gospel truth. Fight to your rifle.
"...failure drills..." This is the second thing everyone who carries concealed should learn. Shoot to stop and that means CNS, failure to stop drills.

 

[Browning]

I think you're missing the point. It wasn't solely about the 10mm but it was undeniably a factor. I expect he would have loved to go back in time and avoid the situation or barring that use a more common weapon (although iirc Mr. Fish has recently passed so I can't ask him).

It was one argument made by the prosecution that tried to make Mr Fish out to be a loose cannon. That's what gets focused on.

Of more importance was the witness that testified that the incident actually occurred earlier than reported by Mr Fish and that he hadn't reported it.

 

[Browning]

In my experience carrying a gun IWB with a t-shirt is ineffective as it seems that the t-shirt prints too easily and/or it gets snagged on the pistol's butt when I bend over or move in a way that allows the shirt to snag the butt. Thus, I tend to carry a shoulder rig (where my weak arm can cover the gun to prevent printing) or an IWB with a shirt that extends well below my belt (like a light jacket or heavy flannel shirt).

I have carried a gun in my pocket on many occasions but have to be very conscientious about it at all times. I once had a gun fall out of my pocket when sitting. I managed to keep my cool and pick it up without anyone noticing.

I do have a daytimer type holster but rarely use it as I worry that I would set it down and forget it and/or someone might snatch it from me.

So in the summer I either carry in my pocket (and constantly worry about it) or put my trusty little .380 in an IWB holster deep enough that the butt of the gun is virtually level with my belt. This makes for a slow draw but reduces the probability of printing).

On the night in question I had a light jacket and the Sig .380 in an outside the waste band holster: very comfortable and easier draw.

Maybe it depends on your body type as well the pistol (hundreds of makes and models and various sizes), specific holster and location on the body (appendix, 3 o'clock, 4 o'clock, 8 o'clock[LH], 9 o'clock [LH]). :Shrug.

Too many variables.

I haven't had any trouble concealing one though.

 

[old lady new shooter]

Never have a room with No hallway

This is a big deal for me, I will not stay in a place where the door to my room goes right outside. I also always ask for the second floor so as not to be behind easily climb-in-able windows. And I have an alarm thing you push under the door which goes off really loud if someone tries to open the door from the other side: https://www.amazon.com/SABRE-Wedge-Security-Alarm-Siren/dp/B00M30SQGA

 

[Phaedrus/69]

It was one argument made by the prosecution that tried to make Mr Fish out to be a loose cannon. That's what gets focused on.

Of more importance was the witness that testified that the incident actually occurred earlier than reported by Mr Fish and that he hadn't reported it.

Again, it was a factor in being prosecuted to begin with and an issue at the trial. Certainly not the only factor but it was a factor.