Usefullness of 30-30 in "Modern Combat"

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if the ads for the LeveRevolution slug can be believed the full potential of the venerable 30-30 has been upped to a higher level, shame the new slugs are so expensive but my nephew that has the Marlin lever awaits with bated breath my handloads with the new slug. I have little doubt that the new slug and the recent addition of a Weaver scope atop his rifle are going to make it a real threat at 200 yards and further judgeing by his performance with iron sights and round nose slugs at 100 yds. Marlins have a rep for accuracy as they are.
suitable for modern combat - yes - particulary so if a comrade(s) has a shotty(s) and/or hi-cap large bore pistol(s)
 
someone once told me that 30-30 and 7.62 x54mmR are pretty much the same, dunno bout that, but 7.62 x54mmR is definitely used in modern combat
 
The 30-30 IS ballistically superior to the x39 maybe not by a mile but it IS
The 7.62x39 was developed as a combat round. The 30-30 was developed as a hunting round. They are both very good at their own role.

someone once told me that 30-30 and 7.62 x54mmR are pretty much the same, dunno bout that, but 7.62 x54mmR is definitely used in modern combat
They both are. 7.62x39 is used far more than 7.62x54, but they are both common rounds to be seen in combat.
 
For the poster who asked, as much as I like the .30-'30 round, its performance isn't even in the same league as the 7.62x54R. The latter is more comparable to the early J loaded 7.92x57 Mauser round, or a bit better.
 
7.62x54R works at a lot higher pressures than .30-30, being chambered in a lot stronger action in the first place. It compares well with .308 (7.62x51NATO for you tacticool types), ballistically.

The .30-30 is a classic hunting round. I won't knock the round as I've taken deer with it from rifle and pistol and still hunt with it, but it is what it is, a low pressure brush hunting round for quick, easy to tote, easy to point brush rifles that happen to be beautiful to look at IMHO. When it came out, it had already been eclipsed as a fighting round by the 8mm Lebel. And troops in the Spanish American war thought they were outgunned by the Spanish using 7x57. American troops were armed with the .30-40 Krag, which is itself ballistically superior to the .30-30, if not by all that much.
 
The 7,62 X 54R is in a different power class compared to the 30-30.....is somewhat in between the 308 Winchester (or the slightly different military variant 7,62 X 51) and the venerable 30-06 Springfield...actually is closer to the 30-06 than the 308.


But the 30-30 is significantly more powerful than the 7,62 X 39 (and heavier bullets too which means better sectional density)...people that keep saying that they are equal they are deluding themselves or did not bother to read the ballistic tables for the 2 rounds.
 
The 30-30 round? Probably not, it's rimmed, and thus doesn't work too well in select-fire rifles (you are talking about military combat, right?)with hi-capacity magazines.

The rifle? Still no, it's not select fire with hi-capacity magazines, so it wouldn't be a good general issue rifle. Also, lever actions can be difficult to operate from cover/sitting.
 
Today? There aren't any real advantages, unless everybody's wearing body armor and everybody else is armed with an M16. Keep in mind that the .30-30 has more energy than a .223, or even 7.62x39.

Anyway, the .308 is more effective, works better in most guns, weighs about the same, and is already standardized.

Having a .30-30 lever gun in an 18th century battle or earlier is an entirely different story. :)
 
+1^

Personally I love lever actions and find them to be quite accurate rifles; at least the Marlin variants.

For instance, I witnessed my father shoot a ground hog at a distance of 150+ yards (possibly further but don't want to inadvertantly exaggerate), with a Marlin 1893 chambered in .32 special with open sights, loaded with remington corelokt sp's. Shooting off hand, the round entered just behind the ear and exited in the area of the forehead. I remember it quite well as I bet him that he couldn't even hit the groundhog; and dad stated he'd hit him in the head. Needless to say I had to pay up.

Now obviously this isn't the .30-30, but pretty close. Modern combat? No, but certainly if you can shoot; the rifle and round will serve you quite well. I am continually amazed at people who need 12X optics, heavy barrels, match triggers, bench rests/caldwell sleds, and custom handloaded ammo to achieve 2" groups?!? I guess my family, friends, and I have simply been lucky when it comes to getting accuracy from our "outdated cowboy guns."

Perhaps a return to fundamentals i.e. more practice would serve these people better than throwing more and more hardware at the lack of accuracy issues.
 
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It's an accurate round. I picked up my Winchester 94 because it was a terrific deal and my father has one. I was floored when I shot it. Amazing accuracy, far better than I expected from a mere lever gun with its two piece stock and cowboy round. I put a scope on top of it, and now it's MORE accurate. I let my Dad shoot it at my range on a visit, and with one single shot, he scored, from standing, offhand position, at 100 yards, using the 9 power setting, a perfect bullseye. I mean, the very dead center of the bullseye. When I get guns like that, and I do from time to time, I hang onto them for dear life.
 
If you're trained, anything will "work".

That being said, I'd rather have something that will "work better." There's not too much that a .30-30 can do that my SKS can't do, and my SKS takes up about the same amount of space, has a round that has similar ballistics, and is more appropriate for the intended scenario. Plus, it comes with a built-in pig-skewering device.

And I have more effective firearms for the purpose than my SKS, to boot.
 
This is my Marlin 336 30-30 scoped with a 4-16X 40 with illuminated Mil Dot reticle (I use the Weaver rings with the large screw attachment so I can take off the scope in a matter of seconds and switch to iron sights)

I did let fire a full magazine of Hornady Leverevolution ammo to an old lever "expert" and he constantly did killing hits at 300 yards.

At that distance the 160 gr Hornady polymer pointed spitzer bullets have basically the same retained energy of a 223 at the muzzle...


marlin336scopedresizedcc4.jpg
 
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The 30-30 round itself would be perfectly adequate as a combat round. Set aside for a moment the shortcomings of its normal platform, the lever action, and look only at it's terminal ballistics. I am sure that if a modern action with the requisite removable box magazine were designed for it, it would be a useful battlefield implement. There are of course many other cartridges that surpass it and the amount of work going into creating a suitable semi-auto rifle that would take into account the physical dimensions and issues caused thereof would be daunting. Therefore, we will never see the venerable .30 WCF as a combat munition ever again (the Russians did use it in some numbers if I recall, as well as the US Army in very small numbers to guard spruce timber reserves).

I think perhaps the more telling question would be "if I were armed with a lever action in 30-30, would I be effective on the battlefield in modern combat?"

The answer there of course is no. Modern combat requires a long logistical train, large numbers of well trained troops equipped with what will give them the greatest tactical flexibility. The small arm they carry is practically the least of these. Simply compare the weight of the individual weapon as a percentage of the total combat load and how it has changed over time to see what I mean. However, in spite of that, the issued small arm must conform to the principle of giving the greatest tactical flexibility, hence the common run of modern small caliber, small dimension, combat rifles.

Another relevant question might be "if I am armed with a 30-30 lever action rifle, could I be an effective guerrilla fighter against those typically equipped for modern combat?"

For me, the answer is of course I can. But that is perhaps more of a reflection of my training than of the efficacy of the weapon itself. What answer would be correct for you, who can say if you cannot?
 
Try to take a deer at 300 yards with an SKS....

Don't get me wrong, I love the 7,62 X 39 and I do own an AK but the two rounds are hardly comparable.


At 300 yards the lighter 125 gr. SKS bullet will retain about 600 ft/lb of energy a 160 gr. Leverevolution 1025 ft/lb.....

A regular commercial 30-30 load in 170 gr. flat point at that distance will retain 700-750 ft/lb (the Winchester Silvertip just shy of 800 ft/lb) and it will smack pretty hard because of the weight and the flat nose.

The 30-30 is easier to "soup up" for reloaders and there are specialized loads still within the SAAMi pressure limits that can beat the above mentioned numbers

The Grizzly Cartridges 170 gr. Hawk Flat Point retain almost 900 ft/lb at the same distance.

I'm curious to see what kind of numbers Buffalo Bore will get out of their soon to be introduced 190 gr heavy 30-30 which is advertised safe to shoot in any 30-30 lever.
 
Repeat with me: The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances, The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances, The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances...

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...........

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:banghead::banghead::uhoh::cuss::cuss::banghead::banghead:
 
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30-30 is really effective at close range... I have seen the damage done to hogs... But I am not sure it would be too useful past 200 yards... I know there are the rare guys who take the long shots w/ the lever guns. I can only go off of what I have personally witnessed.
 
Repeat with me: The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances, The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances, The 30-30 and the 7,62 x 39 ARE NOT similar in ballistic performances...

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I don't get it....they are...within 100fps...
 
don't get it....they are...within 100fps...

The 30-30 fires a heavier bullet.....150 or 170 gr. versus 123 gr....depending on the load, there is between 20 and 30% difference in muzzle energy (with an heavier bullet which means better sectional density being the caliber the same)

It is enough to make the 2 rounds different...the gap is not negligible...
 
You can get 150gr 7.62 ammo too ya know. That is actually the data i compaired. I personally would want the lighter 130-140gr stuff in the 30-30 if i were to use it in defense, or the heavier leverevoultion if it were there.
 
I shoot my 94 at the 200 yard berm regularly. Yes, the scope on top of it needs to be adjusted a bit for that range. I can also shoot at that range using the buckhorn sights (the scope is mounted above, so I can fall back on the iron sights) but elevation adjustment is rather crude.
 
You can get 150gr 7.62 ammo too ya know. That is actually the data i compaired. I personally would want the lighter 130-140gr stuff in the 30-30 if i were to use it in defense, or the heavier leverevoultion if it were there.
Today 01:57 PM

In 150 gr. the 7.62 X 39 goes below or on par with the velocity of a 170 gr 30-30...20-30% less energy no matter how you look at it.
 
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