USPSA draw and mag change split times

[LiveLife]

Any other thoughts?

1. Practice with 1/4 sheet and 1/2 sheet of copy paper as your targets. Set them at 5 yards to start and practice until you can get all your shots as fast as you can shoot then move them out to 7-10-15 yards.

After you practice with smaller 1/4 and 1/2 sheet targets, the shoot area of your no-shoot targets will be bigger than what you practiced with and you will be more confident in shooting at your normal "fast" speed (Remember what Rob Leatham said? "Why would you ever shoot any slower?"). Actually, you can even "gray" them out during the stage and just see the 1/4 and 1/2 sheet targets superimposed on the shoot part of the target.

Finally, range practice by making your own shoot/no shoot targets by duplicating the different match setups and practice at different distances. Practice until you shoot no-shoot targets just as fast as regular targets.

2. Viewing "right side" video, looks like you were "palming" the magazine with a hesitation (to verify mag well?). Orient the magazine in the mag pouch so bullet nose faces front. Practice grabbing the magazine with left index finder in front of the magazine/follower to index with mag well while shooting hand is raising/tilting the pistol to aid in mag insertion into the mag well (while quickly visualizing/glancing top of magazine entering mag well). Practice mag change so mag drop to getting pistol back on target is done in one smooth motion without hesitation.

3. What are you talking about? Even Rob Leatham has a belly. I have a belly (well, not as big as yours, maybe like Rob's). Belly doesn't keep you from isolating the trigger finger to release the hammer/striker without moving the front sight. Consistently "jerking" the trigger without moving the pistol is what Rob wants us to do to shoot fast and accurate. He never said we had to have skinny bellies to shoot fast and accurate. I have taught point shooting to many people with all sorts of bellies and they all went "tap tap" without any issues. Now, moving quickly from targets to targets, that's a different story.

 

[LiveLife]

Just watched the last video.

Instead of over reaching and balancing your body while tip toeing, practice bending at the knees to reposition the body so you can shoot around cover with more stable base.

I think you did pretty good.

 

[DLrocket89]

bds -

1) Sounds good. Going to get something set up in the apartment here soon. Have you (or anyone) ever worked with something like this: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/266982/laserlyte-quick-tyme-target

2) the mag switch thing, a few practice shoots ago I slammed my finger between the pistol frame and the magazine butt-pad, so I've been a bit shy on that. I watched the Tommasie video earlier in the thread and that makes sense having seen that. I'm going to work on keeping the pistol "high" so everything happens in my line of sight. Having seen that video, I remember having done that base 12-13 years ago and it making a big difference. Apparently I forgot.

3) lol - one of the reasons I'm focusing on classifiers is that I'm slow on the rest of things. Just forces me to be as efficient as possible in the rest of it.

Sounds good on the barricade technique. Thanks!

 

[Doublehelix]

1) Sounds good. Going to get something set up in the apartment here soon. Have you (or anyone) ever worked with something like this: https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/266982/laserlyte-quick-tyme-target

I use their laser as a snap cap and aiming device, but it is not overly accurate. It is "OK", don't get me wrong, but I have both a 9mm and a .40 version, and the 9mm is pretty far off, whereas the .40 is pretty much dead-nuts on.

I do not use the Laserlyte targets, but I use the red dot to help with my aiming, especially after a draw and fire to see how quickly I am getting on target when really pushing the time envelope.

In order to get the laser to trigger however, you have to rack the slide after every shot, so it is not good for double-taps or multi-target shots. I think they sell a plastic laser gun that "fires" the laser after every shot, but I am not 100% positive on that.

 

[DLrocket89]

Doublehelix - I saw that you have to rack the slide, but I was thinking that maybe my DA/SA hammer fired gun, which has a restrike capability", would work without cycling the slide?

 

[9mmepiphany]

After taking a look at your videos I noticed something I'd like to bring to your attention.

Evaluate what you left hand is doing during your draw...or perhaps, what it isn't doing...that is slowing you down.

Between this and your reload technique, you might consider getting some formal training to establish good fundamentals

 

[DLrocket89]

9mmepiphany - on the draw, not much (a weird bob thing maybe) until the gun is coming up too...thought they met up at a good time. But maybe not? Doing it how I did it gets me into a solid grip reliably, which is why I do it.

Reload technique...I have several new things to try from comments here, so we'll see where I end up there.

Regarding training, very good point. I got some way back when, but clearly I've forgotten things...

 

[ATLDave]

9mmepiphany - on the draw, not much (a weird bob thing maybe) until the gun is coming up too...thought they met up at a good time. But maybe not? Doing it how I did it gets me into a solid grip reliably, which is why I do it.

The dominant school of thought these days is that, while the right hand is moving to the gun, your left hand is moving equally aggressively towards a point over your lower abdomen, right side, so that as soon as the gun comes out and the muzzle gets clear of your left hand, you can move your left hand onto the gun. Done this way, the hands tend to join about the time the gun is at the bottom of the sternum, rather than at pectoral height, but the precise positioning is not so important. The main thing is to move the left hand aggressively and let it start building the grip earlier. Hard to get the sights settled down while the left hand is slamming into position.

All in all, I thought things looked good, especially for someone who is just getting back into this stuff after several years away. There's always stuff to work on and stuff to improve, but that looked well within the fat part of the curve of performances that you see at matches. Welcome back to the game!

 

[9mmepiphany]

9mmepiphany - on the draw, not much (a weird bob thing maybe) until the gun is coming up too...thought they met up at a good time. But maybe not? Doing it how I did it gets me into a solid grip reliably, which is why I do it.

On the view from the left side, it looks like your left hand is floating in space until the gun almost reaches your centerline...bringing the gun toward the hand. The most efficient place for your left hand to meet the gun is as it clears your hip...as the muzzle comes pass your fingers.

This allows you to establish a solid grip earlier, which allows you to bring the gun up sooner, which allows the sights to align sooner on the pushout, which allows you to begin prepping the trigger sooner.

Even if you didn't do all the above, simply moving your left hand aggressively toward your core, during the draw, would speed up your draw speed

 

[LiveLife]

+1 to what 9mmephiphany posted.

My left/support hand mirrors what my right/shooting hand does as I draw and raise the pistol hugging the chest. As 9mmephiphany posted, I also emphasize this for defensive shooting as once the "grip" is formed in front of the chest, you can start shooting unsighted point shooting (see 7:30 minute mark of bottom video for "guard") and then "push out" to raise the pistol at eye level for sighted/point shooting.

Jerry Miculek demonstrates support hand meeting shooting hand/pistol at the chest in slow motion (Notice when he pulls the trigger, the front sight does not move - What Rob Leatham calls "jerking" the trigger without moving the pistol)



Bob Vogel explains draw and support hand placement at 2:00 minute mark of video



And once my left hand joins the right hand to form the grip, my head locks with the grip (imagine a body cast from head down the shoulders/arms to hands) and wherever I look, the pistol/muzzle points and all I need to do is to "jerk" the trigger without moving the pistol.

This video illustrates different grips/stance



Evolution of pistol techniques explained from guard to full extension for surgical point shooting

 

[Doublehelix]

Regarding your left hand and where it meets the right hand and the gun:

Slowly do your draw backwards and watch where your left hand comes off of the gun as you go to reholster. Do this several times until you get a feel for the best place to have your hands come apart. This should be about the same place they come together when you are drawing and moving towards your aim spot. This is advice from Steve Anderson that helped me find that ideal spot.

Doublehelix - I saw that you have to rack the slide, but I was thinking that maybe my DA/SA hammer fired gun, which has a restrike capability", would work without cycling the slide?

Yes, your DA/SA gun should be fine. Sorry, I am such an SAO guy, I was not thinking about other setups! You will just be shooting with a DA trigger pull every time, which is a bit more difficult.

 

[waktasz]

Your shooting pace is fine for that classifier to be honest, assuming you are hitting things, but there is a lot going on here to work on.

First and foremost, and there's no nice way to say this, but you are just holding the gun wrong. Get your strong hand thumb up out of the way and get more of the weak hand in contact with the pistol. I don't love the finger on the trigger guard style but it can be made to work if you are consistent with it. On the "right" video, you can tell that your grip is different before and after the reload...

Why are you moving your feet and bending your knees on the draw? Get in your shooting position before the beep. When you draw, only your arms should move. Also, look how much your head moves when you draw. This could be related to your holster position as well. It's about 4-6 inches behind where I would wear mine, which is as far forward as legally allowed in Production.
As soon as you hear the beep, both hands should move as if they were tied together with a 12 inch string.

Also, see that thing you do where you pull the gun in real fast after you shoot the last shot of the drill? That's a real bad habit and shows you are not following through. It will bite you with mikes on the last shot in a position or at the end of the stage. I have had somewhat of the same issue but mostly related to wanting to be moving out of a position fast and not respecting the last shot on that position. Shoot some drills with steel as the last shot and you will know right away what I mean.

 

[DLrocket89]

The dominant school of thought these days is that, while the right hand is moving to the gun, your left hand is moving equally aggressively towards a point over your lower abdomen, right side, so that as soon as the gun comes out and the muzzle gets clear of your left hand, you can move your left hand onto the gun. Done this way, the hands tend to join about the time the gun is at the bottom of the sternum, rather than at pectoral height, but the precise positioning is not so important. The main thing is to move the left hand aggressively and let it start building the grip earlier. Hard to get the sights settled down while the left hand is slamming into position.

All in all, I thought things looked good, especially for someone who is just getting back into this stuff after several years away. There's always stuff to work on and stuff to improve, but that looked well within the fat part of the curve of performances that you see at matches. Welcome back to the game!

Took me awhile to visualize that but the part that makes that "work" in my head is the part about how hard it is to settle sights down when slamming your left hand into it. Because after a couple of draws with my "typical" technique, that's EXACTLY what I'm doing. Something to work on, thanks!

 

[DLrocket89]

On the view from the left side, it looks like your left hand is floating in space until the gun almost reaches your centerline...bringing the gun toward the hand. The most efficient place for your left hand to meet the gun is as it clears your hip...as the muzzle comes pass your fingers.

This allows you to establish a solid grip earlier, which allows you to bring the gun up sooner, which allows the sights to align sooner on the pushout, which allows you to begin prepping the trigger sooner.

Even if you didn't do all the above, simply moving your left hand aggressively toward your core, during the draw, would speed up your draw speed

That combined with what ATLDave said makes sense. Thanks!

 

[DLrocket89]

Regarding your left hand and where it meets the right hand and the gun:

Slowly do your draw backwards and watch where your left hand comes off of the gun as you go to reholster. Do this several times until you get a feel for the best place to have your hands come apart. This should be about the same place they come together when you are drawing and moving towards your aim spot. This is advice from Steve Anderson that helped me find that ideal spot.




Yes, your DA/SA gun should be fine. Sorry, I am such an SAO guy, I was not thinking about other setups! You will just be shooting with a DA trigger pull every time, which is a bit more difficult.

Running it backwards sounds interesting...I'll give that a shot next time I can. And yeah...if I can double action a couple of good shots, SA should go well too I'd expect.

 

[DLrocket89]

Your shooting pace is fine for that classifier to be honest, assuming you are hitting things, but there is a lot going on here to work on.

First and foremost, and there's no nice way to say this, but you are just holding the gun wrong. Get your strong hand thumb up out of the way and get more of the weak hand in contact with the pistol. I don't love the finger on the trigger guard style but it can be made to work if you are consistent with it. On the "right" video, you can tell that your grip is different before and after the reload...

Why are you moving your feet and bending your knees on the draw? Get in your shooting position before the beep. When you draw, only your arms should move. Also, look how much your head moves when you draw. This could be related to your holster position as well. It's about 4-6 inches behind where I would wear mine, which is as far forward as legally allowed in Production.
As soon as you hear the beep, both hands should move as if they were tied together with a 12 inch string.

Also, see that thing you do where you pull the gun in real fast after you shoot the last shot of the drill? That's a real bad habit and shows you are not following through. It will bite you with mikes on the last shot in a position or at the end of the stage. I have had somewhat of the same issue but mostly related to wanting to be moving out of a position fast and not respecting the last shot on that position. Shoot some drills with steel as the last shot and you will know right away what I mean.

A lot to absorb here. Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out.

1) OK, I will give that a shot. I've always shot basically with my thumbs stacked and pointing at the target. That's what I learned a decade ago. I've also always shot with my left index finger on the front of the trigger too...Just sitting here, what I can "feel" (without the pistol going bang in my grip) is that maybe a lack of finger on the front makes it easier get my left hand buried properly. I'll try it without the finger on the triggerguard, but dang that's gonna be a hard habit to break if it's decided I need to break it.

So - it's OK for my strong thumb to basically point upwards? That's new to me, but learning is fun so that's excellent.
Also - yeah, I fumbled the grip replacement on the second video. Decided to show that instead of reshooting it because, well...it's what I screwed up, and I'm here to get better, so showed the crap reload, lol. I think part of that was screwed up because I fumbled the mag reload itself, and that threw me some. Another thing I need to get better on - not letting a screw up throw me off for the rest of the stage.

2) Why? No idea. And yeah...I just got the holster I was working with (heck, just got the pistol too). I'll spend some time getting the holster position worked out, I'll fully admit I hadn't spent any time there.

Love the idea of the 12" string for the hands. Great tool to visualize it, thanks!

3) I hadn't noticed that at all...I'm guessing I've always done that. Will break that one ASAP, thanks for pointing it out.

 

[DLrocket89]

bds - thanks for posting the videos, that helps getting these ideas to "jel" in my brain so to say.


Everyone - thank you so much for the extensive time and effort put into making me suck less, I greatly appreciate it. I'll let you know how it goes as things progress. First match I'll be able to make it to is probably April 22...so it'll be awhile yet.

 

[waktasz]

I don't personally like the trigger guard thing, but the best shooter in the world shoots like that, so what do I know It's the weak hand being pushed off the gun because it's on top of your strong thumb that you should really look to change. You are a big guy, but your gun is flipping a lot, because your weak hand isn't doing as much as it could/should be. You don't have to point the right thumb straight up, usually just putting it on top of the safety is fine, but you do have extra big hands. You're shooting a CZ75 right? I shood a tanfoglio and wear XL size gloves, but your hands are definitely bigger than mine. I shoot it just like I'd shoot a 1911. Right thumb on top of safety, weak hand as high up on the grip as I can, making as much contact with the left side of the pistol as possible.

I want the meaty part of my weak hand palm to fill up this entire spare on the left side of the gun. All my right thumb is doing is getting out of the way


Put all of this muscle


into this gap, as high as possible for best leverage



so it looks like this

 

[DLrocket89]

I don't personally like the trigger guard thing, but the best shooter in the world shoots like that, so what do I know It's the weak hand being pushed off the gun because it's on top of your strong thumb that you should really look to change. You are a big guy, but your gun is flipping a lot, because your weak hand isn't doing as much as it could/should be. You don't have to point the right thumb straight up, usually just putting it on top of the safety is fine, but you do have extra big hands. You're shooting a CZ75 right? I shood a tanfoglio and wear XL size gloves, but your hands are definitely bigger than mine. I shoot it just like I'd shoot a 1911. Right thumb on top of safety, weak hand as high up on the grip as I can, making as much contact with the left side of the pistol as possible.

I want the meaty part of my weak hand palm to fill up this entire spare on the left side of the gun. All my right thumb is doing is getting out of the way


Put all of this muscle
View attachment 780564

into this gap, as high as possible for best leverage

View attachment 780565

so it looks like this

View attachment 780566

Lol, fair enough on the finger/trigger guard. I'll try it both ways and see where it ends up. And I love the muscle pictures, that makes sense. And yeah, based on those pics, my left hand is waaaaaaaay out of position if that muscle is supposed to be touching the side of the pistol.

Shooting a CZ75 SP-01 Tactical, so it's a decock instead of a safety. I need to see where my thumb would fall on the decocker lever and what happens if it's unintentionally depressed some. As it is, it needs to rotate about 80 degrees to decock, so it's not going to decock, what I'm worried about is something jamming up or whatever from a partial decock...what happens when the slide cycles if I'[m inadvertently slightly thumbing the lever basically.

Thanks again!

 

[waktasz]

I was wondering about that actually while googling pictures of "cz75 grip"..all I found were all the different types of grips people make for that gun, not what I was looking for.
When I shot a Glock a had my strong thumb out and away from the gun so as to avoid hitting the slid stop by accident when shooting. Looking back on my videos now it looks weird, but at the time it didn't feel out of place.

 

[waktasz]

It's funny actually how in this picture, the guy has his gun stippled in exactly the opposite place from where I add grit to my guns. I want that part of my palm shown above to be crunching down into that area. The bottom of the grip that this guy has stippled hardly matters to me.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've always shot basically with my thumbs stacked and pointing at the target.

I'll point out that in your videos, your right thumb isn't pointed toward the target...it's pointed down.

The biggest thing you're giving up when you have you right thumb under your left one is contact between your left hand and the gun. Wherever you don't have contact is where the gun will jump as it flips

 

[DLrocket89]

I'll point out that in your videos, your right thumb isn't pointed toward the target...it's pointed down.

The biggest thing you're giving up when you have you right thumb under your left one is contact between your left hand and the gun. Wherever you don't have contact is where the gun will jump as it flips

Didn't even realize.... thanks for pointing that out!

 

[waktasz]

I asked the good people of facebook if they owned a 75 decocker, and if so, how do they hold it. There's too many comments to repost them all but some people added photos

 

[DLrocket89]

Looks like most people go with "just under the decock lever", which makes a lot of sense. It's a good reference point, and won't move if you put your thumb there.

Thanks!!

Dustin