You have got to really plan ahead...Before you draw! Right?!

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Hokkmike

Hokkmike

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Many of us carry a handgun everyday. CC or OC, it is a common practice. We never know when or if our weapon of choice will be needed - and so we are ready; we think we are anyway. Seven million nine hundred and fifty thousand Americans, according to USA Today, own firearms.

Statistically the odds of using a gun in defense of oneself or others are infinitesimally small; According to the NRA, a source most of us will accept, they are:

1 in 80,658,175,170,942,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000

I am NOT using that statistic as an argument against carrying. When "that number" applies to you it is a ratio of 1:1. What I am saying is that a whole lot of excitement as well physical, emotional, psychological, and mental demands are forced on you in just a few seconds.

So two days ago in my small rural Pennsylvania town of 800 people a DOLLAR STORE, which I visit maybe once a week, was held up. It was an armed robbery.

My immediate thought was that had I been there it would have been different. But would it have, really? I started to talk yesterday with some of my gun buddies and realized that I had not decided in the case of a scenario like this before hand what I would do. I guess you really can't figure it out totally in advance. But you have to have some kind of guiding strategy.. I am not talking about the tactical handling of firearms but of the larger idea of "What the heck is going on and what do I do now?"

My first thought was, "If I could have gotten the drop on the guy he would have been thwarted." But, my second after thought was, "Wouldn't' it be better just to let the bad guy go in this case and let the police do their job, that is, if nobody, including myself were threatened with imminent bodily harm?" (of course having a gun pointed at you might be consider an immediate threat)

The more I thought about it and the more my friends and I talked, they all carry, the more we decided that it probably would have been the best course, after all, to have done nothing. Of course we weren't there so we really will never know. But, the incident ended with the perpetrator getting his money and no one being physically harmed.

Then I realized, though I practice with my pistol, I have not trained my mind enough to make reflexive decisions based on the unfolding events unique to a case like this to know what to do without taking too long to think about it. Does that make sense to you?

So, friends, I am going to try to school myself and deal with this area of "practicing with a gun".

I am interested in your thoughts and reflections on this as well as suggestions as to how to better prepare the mind for this kind of encounter in case some day the odds do visit me. I hope they never do.
 
There are so many permutations to what can happen that it's really hard to say. You might want to attend a self defense class, where they lay out scenarios, and practice with dummy guns. Sometimes computer projected scenarios are used, introducing "shoot/don't shoot" scenarios. You can learn things that way.
As a general principal I'd say that a civilian arms himself to defend himself, or family, not to play policeman, so usually if you can get out of Dodge, that would be best, and let the police do the chases.
But a robbery scenario can easily also turn into a defense one. Say the robber shoots the store clerk and wants to eliminate witnesses? A thug may just run....but he might also hunt a witness if he knows one is there.
Stay frosty...alert, and remember that the goal is to end up alive, not supercop.
 
if the odds of using a firearm in self defense are lower than 1 in all the humans that have ever existed including presapiens, does that mean such an event has never, and in the next thousand years will never happen? That number seems just kinda fake. I'll agree the number is mathematically insignificant, but not 1 in Mole.
 
Hokkmike writes:

Statistically the odds of using a gun in defense of oneself or others are infinitesimally small; According to the NRA, a source most of us will accept, they are:

1 in 80,658,175,170,942,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000.
Click to expand...

This statistic seems to be an impossibility, given that that number far exceeds the number of humans currently occupying the planet, and there are likely better than one million uses of firearms for defense each year in this country alone. (It's funny that there are so many digits used there, but the last twelve are all zeros.)

I agree that, whatever the "mathematic likelihood" is of you needing to use a firearm for defense, that it becomes real significant, real quick, when you become the target.

Yes, you sound like you'd enjoy some "scenario training." A lot of it can be done without live-fire, too.
 
You're walking from a bank at Poplar&Highland in Memphis, about a mile from a small section of the hood. ..............A guy at the range told me that this happened to him..............

You can Not hear the guy sprinting up to you in soft running shoes from behind, so he suddenly appears in front of you with a gun, tells you to give him his wallet. They don't Want anybody to hear, or see their intentions.

The victim carried a concealed handgun, kept calm, cool, handed over his wallet as the mugger ran away.
In this type of situation (I did Not say all.....read this carefully), what good does it do to have a large caliber, and be able to make a tight group of bullet holes on a target, in a calm manner?

Sure, maybe muggers can be known to slowly approach from your 11:00-1:00 as they slowly reach into the back of their pants, watching you the whole time. It is possible that they will Give you time to first pull your gun out...but really? :)

Obviously if you are known to keep jewelry or piles of cash in your home (or they hear that the security system is inop......), or live in a rural (etc) area, knocking with no response, and they force a door open, a tight group could be helpful.
 
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Lets say the bad guy was holding a gun on the clerk and showed signs that he was going to use it to eliminate the witness.

Even if I had a clear shot at him, I fear the muscular reaction may be enough for him to pull the trigger and get the shot off anyhow whether he knew it or not. That would be a very bad thing to have happen.
 
Unless you believe that you're going to be shot, hand over your money. That ccw permits isn't a badge.

Don't carry anything that you can't afford to lose.

I had my ccw in my hand yesterday when a pit bull was racing toward me through my bean field that I was checking.

I don't agree with that statistic. It's rough out there.
 
[QUOTE="
So two days ago in my small rural Pennsylvania town of 800 people a DOLLAR STORE, which I visit maybe once a week, was held up. It was an armed robbery.
[/QUOTE]

Corporate executives don't provide security for their employees at store level because it costs money. Don't be stupid enough to provide free security service for them.
 
An off duty brother officer was in a holdup in a Manhattan hardware store one time. He took no action as the robbery unfolded. However, once the crooks had gotten the money, they told the store owner and customers to move to the back of the store. This was a deciding point for the officer, there had been a number of store robberies at the time where the robbers had point blank shot all witnesses in the backs of stores.

As he was heading back, he ducked behind a column, pulled his revolver, and started shooting at the robbers. They turned and fled, none appeared to have been shoot.

As an aside, we were carrying .38Spl. revolvers at the time, he had a 2" S&W Chief with +P ammo. One shot hit the thick glass front door at an angle and slid off without breaking it, another bullet was lodged between the folds of a coiled garden hose.

Every situation is different, but I'd feel hesitant about pulling a gun when someone already had their gun pointed at me. Been retired quite a few years, I'm probably not that quick. Takes a lot less time to just pull a trigger as opposed to moving my hand towards the gun, hoping for a snag free withdrawal, bringing the gun up to shooting level, and pulling the trigger. You may have the element of surprise, but you better be darn quick. I'm not willing to bet my life on it, in a quick grab and run, a store's insured money is not that important to me. They want me to walk to the back, that will change my perspective.
 
Speedo66 said:
Every situation is different, but I'd feel hesitant about pulling a gun when someone already had their gun pointed at me.
Click to expand...

That should only be done as last resort when you have much better chance than average that you will get shot if you don't do anything. When the odd seem hopeless the only option open is to "take the fight to them".
 
I used to carry money for an armored car service and it was always in my mind and some of us always trained for it. Its just money and no ones life, even the robbers is worth being taken away over pieces of paper. I have been in some of the roughest cities in the country carrying a lot of money and sometimes had thoughts something bad was going to happen just by how people were acting or talking. I always contemplated what i would do in the situation of someone robbing a bank or store i was in and said to myself its not worth the headache, $, media, etc just to be a hero. Now, unless they actually fire a round then that's a different story. If someone has the drop on you or gun pointed at someone else its absolutely stupid to pull your weapon because now the suspect is going to get nervous and possibly do something stupid like shoot an innocent person.

I saw a video of a cop in a drug store standing behind the perp and the perp pulls a gun and points it at the cashier, the cop pulls his gun and grabs the guy and sticks it to his head. the bad guy could have easily shot the cashier out of spite, fear, etc. Too many movies and TV shows give us a false sense when it comes to this stuff. bad guy walks into a bank and the guard pulls his gun immediately. If someone walked into a bank with AR/AK/SMG I'm stripping, security who?

Now when i carried money it crossed my mind what if someone walked into a bank and starts shooting like in the movies? they don't know where i am in the bank and we are trained on barricade, clearing rooms, etc shooting and once that gun goes off that suspect just made the conscious, reasonable, justifiable choice to cause death or severe bodily harm to someone and i will protect myself and the innocent people.

I was sitting in a car one time while riding with my best friend to take his nephew and his nephews girl friend home and he dad was slobbering drunk and had a gun. told the kid you see that and pointed to the gun on a stand outside the house. buddy tells the nephew lets go, its time to leave, dad gets mouthy and grabs the gun. I never trained for that but my mindset and training over the years told me to keep it holstered because by myself bringing a firearm into the situation i was now putting everyone's lives in danger. Suspect sees me pull a firearm and is now threatened and possibly fires creating a more dangerous environment. I let the guy run his mouth and after talking my way out of it he put the gun down and was later arrested.
 
Seven million nine hundred and fifty thousand Americans, according to USA Today, own firearms.
Click to expand...
A quick Google search came up with the study that USA Today quoted which actually said they believe about 55 Million Americans own firearms. (Around 22% of the total population.)

They also said that approximately 3% of the American population fall into a group they call "Super Owners" who own quite a few guns (average 17 per S.O.).

I don't know where the 7,950,000 number came from, but it's way off.
 
Well one commonly cited statistic is that there are about 2.5 million instances each year where a citizen uses a firearm to prevent or stop a crime. The vast majority of those cases do not involve gunfire; they are of the "better get out of here, I have a gun" nature, or a simple display of the weapon. Other reports put the number lower than that but still in the tens or hundreds of thousands annually. Frequently you will see a post on a gun forum asking "has anyone ever . . . " followed by multiple accounts within a day or so where posters describe incidents there the display or use of a weapon halted or prevented a robbery, burglary, assault, etc.

Even the most conservative estimates indicate that the self defense use of firearms if fairly common, with most such cases not even reported officially. From experience of ten-plus years close up around law enforcement I would put the number in the mid-hundred thousands as a good guess, or at least once or twice a week in a typical city. That is clear ratification of the value of firearms in self protection, and a pretty good indicator that such use likely short circuits or prevents a great many crimes and saves a not insignificant number of lives.
 
Sam1911 said:
A quick Google search came up with the study that USA Today quoted which actually said they believe about 55 Million Americans own firearms. (Around 22% of the total population.)

They also said that approximately 3% of the American population fall into a group they call "Super Owners" who own quite a few guns (average 17 per S.O.).

I don't know where the 7,950,000 number came from, but it's way off.
Click to expand...

Yeah, thanks. I suspect we could get other numbers as well. The first one I got WAS from the NRA.
 
PabloJ said:
[QUOTE="
So two days ago in my small rural Pennsylvania town of 800 people a DOLLAR STORE, which I visit maybe once a week, was held up. It was an armed robbery.
Click to expand...

Corporate executives don't provide security for their employees at store level because it costs money. Don't be stupid enough to provide free security service for them.[/QUOTE]

Valid point - in fact, corporations make little effort at all to protect you in this situation, at best the clerk has a button to push which may alert a monitoring service who then phones them in the next few minutes to check on them. PD isn't dispatched if the work is ok. Therefore, no, you can't depend on the store to protect you, therefore, please don't take it on yourself to protect the store. The clerks know this and will bail at the an optimum opportunity. Those videos we see online where they get the drop on the intruder? It's actually a very rare situation in the tens of thousands of armed robberies nationwide.

So, going with the OP's intent of "Strategy in Public Places" is the knowledge that your gun is to protect you and yours from immediate lethal danger. Not be the pro bono cop/hero on the scene. Unless you have trained in negotiating strung out crack heads armed with a stolen gun he doesn't know has a two pound trigger 'cause "Murica I can do as I like wid muh gun" then the better course would be to NOT ESCALATE the situation pulling out your gun.

Just retreat in the best possible manner. You do know which way to go, right? Start scoping out those Stop and Rob's you frequent. How do you get out, after all? You can't choose to run out the back if you don't even know how to find the door.

Now, run? Well, maybe not, one, it's personally dangerous to attract attention like that, two, it's a simple thing to walk out and every step counts. Most importantly, tho, is that you'd be better off trying to keep an eye on things and not turn your back on a potential shooter. Just like farm club baseball, the ball comes your way when you aren't looking. If you don't see them turning the muzzle, you can't respond if necessary. Making distance will allow you to get behind concealment and at least get your hand on the gun but it's still not a good thing to draw - once outside you are "a man with a gun!" to bystanders or worse, a patrol car who just arrived. Bad juju. It does happen.

I believe these are the kind of things the OP has in mind, not a useless discussion of what the odds are. We already calculated the odds and they were too high, it's why we carry, that point is moot. What to do - or not do wrong - is the issue.

Be very careful studying police tactics for tips and tricks as they are predicated on confronting the armed thug and arresting him. Wrong viewpoint for strategy, wrong viewpoint for what gun to carry.
 
Deadly force laws provide a safety net for law-abiding citizens who have no other choice but to use deadly force for the defense of innocent life.

If you are trapped on the top floor of a burning building and there's no other way down then you jump and hope the safety net works as intended. But if you can safely take the stairs, there's no point in jumping.
 
Back in June I walked in on my 28yr old daughter getting raped. The guy drugged her, had her clothes off, and was taking his off. I had my gun and wanted to blow his head off. The gun stayed concealed as I sufficiently ended the threat without violence. What was interesting in retrospect was how calm I was. My wife and son said they thought the guy was dead, they never saw me look the way I did that day.
I sincerely believe God was guiding me, i really wanted to rip that guy apart.

You will never be able to train for every possible scenario, all you can do is try to keep a level head.
 
Chances of using a gun in self defense 1 in 8 * 10 to the 67th power seems likely to be a little bit off.
 
When you shoot in defense of yourself or others, you will have to subsequently justify your actions. In making the decision to pull the trigger it is not sufficient to simply know the law, you really should be familiar with how the prosecutors view the law as well as how the courts in your area are applying the law. Take the time to research and read recent court decisions on self defense shootings in your area. They're public record and can usually be found on the court's web site.

Depending on the jurisdiction, if you were to shoot a person waving a gun around while telling the clerk to empty the cash register into a bag while he "danced" excitedly towards the door, you might walk away with no charges ever being filed, or because nobody's life was in imminent danger, you might find yourself charged with a felony.
 
Recently several dollar stores close to my home were robbed. The robbers tended to show up right at closing time coming in armed. In the pictures that I saw one of them had a long gun that looked like an AR the other seemed to be holding a 9mm pistol. I decided to quit patronizing dollar stores. I would prefer not to put myself in a position where I might shoot someone. I'm not saying I would draw but depending on the circumstances I might. I'd prefer not to be there instead.
 
Vern Humphrey said:
Cut to the chase -- is your life, or that of a loved one in immanent danger? If not, do not fire. Fire ONLY to protect human life, not to stop a robbery or apprehend a felon.
Click to expand...
Exactly. If you are truly in fear of your life the stats, practices, morals, and even the laws aren't going to mean squat; you do what you need to do to stay alive. If you have the time to recall something you read in an online forum and debate it in your head, I'd guess you aren't really in all that much fear of death or great bodily harm. After the fact, they will (ideally) apply the 'reasonable man' doctrine to your actions to decide if you should be prosecuted. If you honestly consider yourself a reasonable man or woman- great. If you know you're a hothead, drunkard, or the like, don't carry a gun. The newspapers are full of chuckleheads shooting fleeing car thieves, garden shed prowlers, and trying to arrest criminals.
 
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