Condition 1 or Condition 2

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Because it's not possible to control the circumstances of an attack, this testing should also include some real world contingencies.

I'm a HUGE believer in this. Some people go on and on about bullet expansion, projectile velocity, energy on target, external hammers, safety or no safety, lights and sights, etc, etc. NONE of that is going to matter in a sudden engagement, at least not as much as X amount of hours spent practicing and drilling... realistically, or as realistically as you can... with your sidearm. Anyone who has done any realistic stress training... with or without a firearm... can tell you the Moment of Truth changes everything. Even in the controlled environment of a classroom I've seen it.

Carrying a defensive firearm in a condition other than Condition 1 (or whatever that is for your particular firearm...) is simply a factor contributing to your defeat. I figured that out in about 10 minutes with my .380 Colt, and set out after to remedy that.
 
I really like how Paul Harrell concluded his video about condition 3 carry (and I'm paraphrasing):

For those who just can't bring themselves to carry a modern, ergonomic, drop resistant handgun with a round in the chamber

1) Get over it.

2) Or, if you just can't get over it, and you carry every day in condition 3 and you train hard on an empty chamber presentation, then

you'll be better off than the person who doesn't carry every day because somebody told them that carrying with an empty chamber was as bad as not carrying at all.

 
C3 makes no sense when we've got an embarrassment of riches of semiautomatic pistols that permit carrying in C1 safely. Train accordingly. If you don't/can't trust your gun for C1, get one that you can.

One can train and achieve proficiency in C3, but equal training and proficiency in C1 will always be faster and more efficient than C3 because C3 requires more administrative handling and time to execute than C1. In gunfights, seconds matter and C3 requires response time that may not exist.
 
Tap the brakes folks.

As a guy that brought up Condition 3 in this thread, it was not a recommendation over Condition 1, it was merely a suggestion that it may be preferable to Condition 2 with a single action auto.

The OP is trying to decide between Condition 1 and Condition 2, and as a lefty with only a left side thumb safety.

My recommendation was not Condition 3 over Condition 1. I don't think there is a debate that Condition 1 is the preferred method for carrying a single action auto, unless forum member Slamfire should happen to join the debate, I was merely suggesting that until the OP could get an ambidextrous thumb safety, he may be better off with Condition 3 rather than Condition 2.
 
As a guy that brought up Condition 3 in this thread, it was not a recommendation over Condition 1, it was merely a suggestion that it may be preferable to Condition 2 with a single action auto.
Right.
 
Option 1- have a ambi safety installed, if you are really in love with the BHP. Option 2- switch to a diferent pistol design that doesn't present this problem. Thumbing a hammer after the draw is tactically inefficient, and lowering the hammer on a live round is potentially dangerous- if you "lose" the hammer doing this, you may have an AD, so at least make sure its pointed in a safe direction and not at anything you care about, and wear eye and ear pro when you do it. Regarding thumbing the hammer cocked, this is not a good idea, because the shooter's grip on the pistol should be firmly established at the draw, and remain in place until its time to re-holster. I challenge anyone to establish a proper grip on a handgun and maintain it when the thumb has to do all that work. All of this takes way too much time, and time is important in a gunfight. A decent manual safety should be able to be operated some time between the draw and the piece being brought to bear, without compromising the shooter's grip/purchase on the piece. Likewise, safeing the pistol to re-holster should be do-able quickly and using 1 hand. I don't see either happening if you need to lower the hammer prior to re-holstering.
 
...if you just can't get over it, and you carry every day in condition 3 and you train hard on an empty chamber presentation, then you'll be better off than the person who doesn't carry every day because somebody told them that carrying with an empty chamber was as bad as not carrying at all.
Absolutely. It would be foolish to say that chamber empty is just like not having a gun at all. In fact, there are some situations where it might be virtually a non-issue. If there's no need for speed, no need for remaining silent, no need to use only one hand, time to address a potential malfunction induced by manually loading the chamber, then it's a tossup.
 
Saturday, the OP claimed that he decided to carry his high power clone in condition 2, rather than implement the simpler and far more effective solution of installing an ambi safety.

If he had selected condition 3, the discussion would likely have been the same.

But he hasn't checked back. @357smallbore , what do you think of members' responses?
 
It's common place to say something 'served me well' when it has never been tested in a real situation or even a realistic simulation - a draw or picking up a gun off a table is not one. It's like the cliches on House Hunters - Where's my white kitchen, those counter tops have to go. Just meaningless. But let's wait for the next unchambered carry thread - it will appear after the next 5 is enough thread. Or maybe "I can't shoot a Glock because of the grip angle".
 
Back around 2010, I decided to replace my Officer's Frame .45 with a couple column 9. When I looked at the Hi Power, I was surprised to find that I could reasonably carry it concealed, but I did not like the safety or the trigger pull, and I chose something else.
 
Since this is still going I will throw in my 2 cents and we all know how much 2 cents is worth today. Get the ambi safety. I am a righty thanks to the sudden stop after falling out of a tree when I was a kid. I have never had a problem with the off side safety but there are ways of almost eliminating it if you do. If I had huge hands it might be different but mine are only ordinary medium sized.

If I am going to the trouble of carrying a gun I want it loaded and ready to use.
 
Doing some other research, I ran across this Beretta APX video where this Italian dude uses Condition 3 throughout the video. It is not how I would carry a Beretta APX, but it is interesting watching him manipulate the gun.

 
If I was to carry it condition 2, I would carry it half cocked.
I've been letting this thread run so folks could vent their feelings, but when the thread descends down to this level, I feel obligated to post.

There are four (4) states/conditions how SAO platforms like the 1911 and the FN-35 are commonly carried. This type of discussion has been going on forever, but I realize sometimes knowledge gets lost with the passage of time. We tested these four states back in the late 60s with several top tier shooters, a timer, and lots of rounds

The four states are:
Condition 0 (zero) - loaded chamber, unlocked
Condition 1 - loaded chamber, hammer cocked, locked (thumb safety applied)
Condition 2 - loaded chamber, hammer uncocked
Condition 3 - empty chamber, hammer uncocked - often referred to as the Israeli Carry (used by the IDF)

For speed into action
1st - Tie between Condition 0 and Condition 1
2nd - Condition 3
3rd - Condition 2

For safety
1st - Condition 3 - no chance of ND until a round is chambered
2nd - Condition 1 - the thumb safety might slip off or be disengaged prematurely
3rd - Condition 0 - the "safety is keeping your finger out of the trigger guard until ready to fire
4th - Condition 2 - cocking on the draw can cause fumbles and the trigger finger can enter the trigger guard while trying to maintain control on the pistol

The Israeli carry was still popular at the time so racking the slide on the draw was still practiced and could be very fast...but it required two hands...racking on the holster, on the draw, is much slower and less reliable. The draw was popular not because it was better, but because, at that time, the Israelis had a wide selection of sidearms which required different manual of arms. The draw they used worked with any pistol they might pick up.

Condition 2, cock the hammer was like watching seals clap as neither the 1911 or the FN-35 were designed to be put into action in that way (as military sidearms, they were both designed for Condition 3). The only 1911 I'm aware of that made accommodations to be thumb cocked on the draw was the Detonics Combat Master which had the rear of the slide cut away at the request of a large contract they were pursuing.

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The only "Gun Expert "/writer I've ever heard advocate for it was Jerry Ahern. He had his protagonist, John Rourke, in his pulp action novel series The Survivalist carry twin Detonics Combat Masters in a double Alessi shoulder rig in Condition 2
 
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@9mmepiphany , thanks for your contribution to this discussion.

In your testing 50 years ago, do you recall how much faster draws from condition 0/1 were compared to those from condition 3?

Also, in the late 60s, those top-drawer shooters could have been drawing to a one-handed grip and stance. Do you recall if they were drawing to a one-handed or two-handed shooting position?

Do you happen to recall whether the delays varied based on their firing grip?

Thanks!
 
FWIW, the SA 35 does not have a FPB (firing pin block) and is there for not technically drop safe with the hammer down.
For drop safety, it doesn't matter where the hammer is.

Without a firing pin block the issue is the inertia of the firing pin overcoming the firing pin spring. You could have the hammer in any position, and the hammer doesn't have to move, but if the firing pin over powers the firing pin spring due to inertia, it can strike the primer and set the round off.
 
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There is another version of condition 3,
Chamber empty, hammer cocked, and safety off.

That allows for the fastest 2 handed operation of a pistol that has a hammer. The problem comes when the safety is knocked into the on position.

Being left handed and shooting 1911's since 1988 adding an ambi-safety was / is always my 1st priority for a carry gun.
While I have a few in my collection, I wont carry a gun that has a right hand only safety.

My carry guns are for the most part striker fired pistols with no thumb safeties. They are carried with loaded chambers in either rigid leather or kydex holsters. The holster is a key ingredient to a semi-auto handgun that doesn't have a thumb safety. The holster protects the trigger.
 
I am left handed. My Springfield Armory SA-35 only has the safety on the left side of the slide. I am carrying in condition 2 (loaded chamber, hammer down) I can manipulate the hammer easier then trying to take the safety off. Its a bitch trying to use my left hand to take the safety off.
Any thoughts.
Switch to a Glock. Seriously.
 
Also, in the late 60s, those top-drawer shooters could have been drawing to a one-handed grip and stance. Do you recall if they were drawing to a one-handed or two-handed shooting position?

Do you happen to recall whether the delays varied based on their firing grip?

Those would be some great questions for a separate thread, but I think this one has pretty much run it's course
 
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