A Gun Could Have Helped Here...

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herrwalther said:
One of my survival instructors described bear spray in my favorite way. In reference to dealing with large bears "it is like hot sauce for your corpse after Grizzly kills you." Would rather carry a gun, even a 9mm.
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The spray channel of bear spray is much larger than a 9mm round, which is only going to work up his appetite.
 
Paul7 said:
From your link:

"But user competency is the largest determining factor in the successful use of a firearm. “When a person is competent with firearms—and I mean competent under pressure —it is an effective deterrent I highly recommend,” he says. “Conversely, those with little to no firearm experience shouldn’t rely on a firearm to save them from a close encounter with a bear.”

He recommends getting training if you intend to carry a gun. “However, even that same firearm-competent person would do well to carry bear spray also,” the researcher states. Smith highlights bear spray’s ease of use and portability as the reasons for that, as well as its effectiveness in nonlethal encounters."

IMHO the average person who isn't proficient in firing powerful handguns is better off with bear spray. The victim in this thread probably wasn't a gun person.
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Firstly, people have successfully defended themselves and others from large bears using 9mm pistols. Obviously those are not ideal but it has been done. Repeatedly. So I'm not specifically advocating a "powerful handgun". Nor was I suggesting that the victim or anyone should have had a handgun. Only that, from the original article, it seemed to me that a gun of some description may have proved more effective than bear spray. It does however appear, upon reading more detailed articles, that this is likely not the case due to how the attack actually happened.

Regarding training, and the recommendation in the article that anyone wanting to carry a gun for bear defense should get training: I don't think training is necessary. I think learning to safely and effectively handle, present, and shoot a chosen firearm is necessary. As well as practice. How much and what kind of practice is necessary would depend entirely on the situation.

For example: If I am pulled out of my tent in the night and mauled by a bear, would practicing scenarios of shooting a charging bear be helpful? Probably not. But perhaps being able to shoot a handgun quickly at close range with only one hand would be helpful.

Another example: If I awake to find a companion in the next tend has been pulled from it and is being mauled by a bear, do I need to be able to aim my shots well enough to hit the bear without hitting the victim? Yes.

If a person can go to the square range, and shoot a gun at 21 feet and consistently hit a 12" target with some speed, they can help a person who is being mauled. Providing they have the will to try.

Is bear spray a good idea in Grizzly country? Yes. Is a gun a good idea in Grizzly country? Yes. Is knowing how to use each effectively important? Yes.
 
I think it's worth pointing out that no gun or bear spray would have prevented the middle-of-the-night surprise attack, but a gun could have ended it sooner than the bear had intended. The lady would've died regardless, but a firearm could've at least shuffled one more overly aggressive bear off this Earth to prevent it from killing someone else.
Paul7 said:
The spray channel of bear spray is much larger than a 9mm round, which is only going to work up his appetite.
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Really?
 
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SquidBubble said:
I think it's worth pointing out that no gun or bear spray would have prevented the middle-of-the-night surprise attack, but a gun could have ended it sooner than the bear had intended. The lady would've died regardless, but a firearm could've at least shuffled one more overly aggressive bear off this Earth to prevent it from killing someone else.
Really?
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Brown bears have been killed with a .22 LR, but I wouldn't want to try it. I would bet you bear spray has a much better success rate than a 9mm pistol.
 
herrwalther said:
I have personally watched a bear get hit with spray and a 12ga slug. Wanna guess which one actually stopped the bear? My point of rather having a firearm, any firearm, stands.
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So which would be better for the lady victim who is most likely not familiar with guns? We spend so much time on these forums we think everyone can handle and carry a .454 Casull or 12 ga. whenever they hike or camp.
 
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Paul7 said:
Brown bears have been killed with a .22 LR, but I wouldn't want to try it.
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And neither would I if given the choice, but that wasn't my point. The point is, run what you brung. The caliber and other circumstances may not be ideal, but it's better than bear spray alone. Bear spray is a compliment and not a replacement for a gun. It's always best to have both when you're on their turf.
 
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WrongHanded said:
I don't think training is necessary. I think learning to safely and effectively handle, present, and shoot a chosen firearm is necessary. As well as practice.
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Isn't that training?

Is bear spray a good idea in Grizzly country? Yes. Is a gun a good idea in Grizzly country? Yes. Is knowing how to use each effectively important? Yes.
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Can't argue with that, if I were regularly in bear country I'd probably have a Glock 10mm, but for the majority who aren't gun people willing to train with one bear spray is probably the way to go. A 60+ petite lady for example is probably not going to do well with a heavy recoiling handgun, or want to carry it. Personally I won't be camping in Grizzly country no matter what I have with me, thank you.
 
Paul7 said:
So which would be better for the lady victim who is most likely not familiar with guns?
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Tragic accident that happened. But the whole point of this forum is how to be prepared in situations where self-defense is warranted. Where the vast majority of advice is a) get firearm and b) get training. In lieu of a and b, there is c) bring along someone with a and b. I have gone on many hikes to more places than I would have because I had a gun and carry it with me
 
Paul7 said:
Isn't that training?
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Nope. You cannot receive training from yourself. To train, is to teach. To teach you must already know. And the reason I said all that is because the article (like many others regarding firearms) is suggesting a person must pay an "expert" to teach them how to do something they can learn to do competently on their own. But maybe I'm wrong, and the vast majority of people cannot learn to do something for themselves without an "expert" holding their hand.

Paul7 said:
Can't argue with that, if I were regularly in bear country I'd probably have a Glock 10mm, but for the majority who aren't gun people willing to train with one bear spray is probably the way to go. A 60+ petite lady for example is probably not going to do well with a heavy recoiling handgun, or want to carry it. Personally I won't be camping in Grizzly country no matter what I have with me, thank you.
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You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink. Even assuming for a moment that this woman actually knew and understood the risks of the wildlife in an area she decided to camp (which seems unlikely) if she did want a gun, she wasn't going to bring one.

But if she had been willing to get a gun (just in case) and shoot it a little at the square range to get familiar with it, there's absolutely no reason she would have to make it a heavy recoiling handgun. Hit for hit, a .454 Casull is better bear medicine than a 9mm FMJ. But that assumes actual hits! And as has been discussed many times before, 9mm has proven effective enough on even large bears to make a difference.

Look, I get it. You think bear spray is the answer. And so you want to frame it as "bear spray vs magnum pistol". It doesn't need to be that way. And I would say that if someone is so unwilling to learn to use a gun for self defense against large predators that they will not train with one, they shouldn't carry a gun. But it also seems that if that is the case, they either think bear spray is 98% effective in all case; think they won't actually need to defend themselves; don't understand the animal or appreciate the danger; or are simply not mentally prepared to respond to violence with violence. And if they don't have the mindset to prevail against an attacking grizzly bear, they probably aren't going to fare very well anyway.
 
Bears are no joke. Friends of mine who live in the mountains down here have had car doors damaged and windows broken by them seeking out food in cars.

I feel bad for the lady and her family and I truly hope she didn’t suffer, but their food storage issue and the previous encounter a bit earlier was a real red flag that should’ve sent them camping elsewhere. :(

Stay safe.
 
WrongHanded said:
The bear killed the victim instantaneously at 4:08 a.m. on Tuesday, while she was sleeping, Powell County coroner Heather Gregory said.

I guess if the coroner said it, they must be pretty confident. Bite to the head or neck seem like the only way that would happen.
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I think there was a lack of any defensive wounds. Usually in a bad bear mauling where someone survives they get their hands and arms torn up while trying to protect their face and neck. I've camped 30 miles from where she was killed and it's scary. I'm always armed when I'm out but pulled out of your tent at 4:00am, well...that's a bad situation. Your odds of utilizing your firearm going from a dead sleep to being chewed on are pretty low. When a cat sinks its teeth into the head of a mouse, how much time does the mouse have to react? At home in your bed you will probably have a bit of time from when the glass starts breaking or the first kick hits the front door to where the bad guy is standing at the foot of your bed. But a 2lb backpacking tent doesn't slow a bear down much. There are some threats in the woods that are somewhat beyond your control. There are more trees on Earth than there are stars in the Milky Way- how often does one fall down? A healthy tree can still be brought down by high winds, something in great supply in the mountains. At some point you just surrender to it, you crawl into your sleeping bag knowing that if a 20 ton tree falls on you at least you'll never know what hit you.

There are three things one can do to mitigate the bear issue at night. I'm going to set aside the painfully obvious like don't have food in the tent. Some other measure that may or may not be practical:
  • Build a palisade- This could be logs or just piles of brush. They do this in Africa and India although I don't recall the term. You kind of build a ring of brush and branches around the tent. Generally animals passing through follow the path of least resistance just as we do. A more determined animal can get through the pile but it slows them down and creates noise. Just as with home defense it's the extra time you're looking for.
  • Portable electric bear fence- These are a bit heavy for the crowd that cuts the handle off their toothbrush but they're getting lighter. A properly set up electric bear fence is extremely effective, and it works even on determined polar bears.
  • Don't camp alone- This is a tough one that's not always practical. Sometimes I will either have to go out alone or stay home. If you have a medium-to-large tent with more people in it the odds of someone being able to react in time to save another is much better. I know of one instance in one of the big parks where other campers were able to save someone who was drug out of the tent in their sleeping bag.
If you're able to sleep that way, consider a sidearm in a chest holster. Off the top of my head I can think of five people either killed or attacked while in their sleeping bag, and at least two or three were drug out still in their bag. It's not a lead pipe lock that having the sidearm on you will allow you to stop the bear but it's a virtual certainty that having the gun in your backpack when you're being drug outside the tent will not help.
 
Alte Schule said:
Came back from a morning hike to find a young grizzly shaking that tree limb..
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Worst part of that is momma might be near by and there is not many places you would rather not be than between the two.

The video I posted was from my BIL. At home the kids sit at the picnic table outside, like I do at a restaurant, back to “safe” and eyes out. When an 8 year old grabs her plate and says “time to go in!”, as she is heading for the door…it’s time to go in.

Pepper spray seems to work pretty good, if the wind is in the wrong direction you wouldn’t know it though as you got it too.
 
edwardware said:
Without question bear mace works in many cases, and is far easier to use than a weapon. On the other hand it lacks the high reliability of a solid CNS hit, but that's quite difficult to achieve even if you practice.

On balance, if you aren't willing to practice extensively, you're probably better off with the bear seasoning. No matter which you have, there's always a chance you'll lose.
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Without question, bear mace doesn't work in the worst cases. Human tolerance of risk allows less than 2%, the failure rate of spray is much higher. Worse, hikers are killed trying to get the spray out of the bottom of their pack. A gun would be equally difficult there.

One answer is carry a .44 Mag or stay home. It 's exactly what the Rangers do, who will track it and kill it with a "high powered rifle," IE something with 1,000 foot pounds of force, as the .44 only provides 800 foot pounds. Not bear spray. And then they will dissect the bear to remove the human remains from it's stomach, which frequently include the genitals and fleshy parts of the thighs.

"Cajun Hiker Seasoning" with bell toppings is pretty accurate. Perhaps bear spray should be periodically applied as a repellant to prevent them biting us. If you can do that, then I say hike wherever you please.
 
Phaedrus/69 said:
I think there was a lack of any defensive wounds. Usually in a bad bear mauling where someone survives they get their hands and arms torn up while trying to protect their face and neck. I've camped 30 miles from where she was killed and it's scary. I'm always armed when I'm out but pulled out of your tent at 4:00am, well...that's a bad situation. Your odds of utilizing your firearm going from a dead sleep to being chewed on are pretty low. When a cat sinks its teeth into the head of a mouse, how much time does the mouse have to react? At home in your bed you will probably have a bit of time from when the glass starts breaking or the first kick hits the front door to where the bad guy is standing at the foot of your bed. But a 2lb backpacking tent doesn't slow a bear down much. There are some threats in the woods that are somewhat beyond your control. There are more trees on Earth than there are stars in the Milky Way- how often does one fall down? A healthy tree can still be brought down by high winds, something in great supply in the mountains. At some point you just surrender to it, you crawl into your sleeping bag knowing that if a 20 ton tree falls on you at least you'll never know what hit you.

There are three things one can do to mitigate the bear issue at night. I'm going to set aside the painfully obvious like don't have food in the tent. Some other measure that may or may not be practical:
  • Build a palisade- This could be logs or just piles of brush. They do this in Africa and India although I don't recall the term. You kind of build a ring of brush and branches around the tent. Generally animals passing through follow the path of least resistance just as we do. A more determined animal can get through the pile but it slows them down and creates noise. Just as with home defense it's the extra time you're looking for.
  • Portable electric bear fence- These are a bit heavy for the crowd that cuts the handle off their toothbrush but they're getting lighter. A properly set up electric bear fence is extremely effective, and it works even on determined polar bears.
  • Don't camp alone- This is a tough one that's not always practical. Sometimes I will either have to go out alone or stay home. If you have a medium-to-large tent with more people in it the odds of someone being able to react in time to save another is much better. I know of one instance in one of the big parks where other campers were able to save someone who was drug out of the tent in their sleeping bag.
If you're able to sleep that way, consider a sidearm in a chest holster. Off the top of my head I can think of five people either killed or attacked while in their sleeping bag, and at least two or three were drug out still in their bag. It's not a lead pipe lock that having the sidearm on you will allow you to stop the bear but it's a virtual certainty that having the gun in your backpack when you're being drug outside the tent will not help.
Click to expand...

"There are more trees on Earth than there are stars in the Milky Way" - wrong.
 
shafter said:
In order of preference: Shotgun or short handy rifle, bear spray, and lastly a handgun.
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I have fished in the Bob Marshall Wilderness where Grizzlies hang out and there's no way I'd pick bear spray over any type of firearm, within reason. When you're preoccupied with picking a Blue Quill over a Royal Coachman or a nymph versus a streamer, a pistol is going to come to hand way faster than any long gun. My choice is an H&K USP40 auto, loaded with hardball. Way better than spraying and praying; then assuming a fetal position and, "playing dead", not hollering "ouch" after every bite. :eek:
 
A friend and I were motorcycle camping years ago in MA and ended up spending the night in a park campground.

Around 9:30 PM a young French Canadian woman walks into our area carrying a plate with a large raw steak on it and says a bear is in her area, what should she do?

We’re like, are you serious, there’s a bear walking around and you’re carrying raw meat!? Get rid of the meat! She goes back, but then reappears, the bear is still there. I briefly thought of suggesting she’d be safe in my tent, but reality intruded and instead suggested banging pots and pans together.

I called the campground administration, oh, he’s there? Don’t worry, he’s harmless, we’ll send someone there.

I hear pots banging, bear is still there, no one shows from the park.

She was fine in the morning, lucky for her it was a fairly tame black bear, not a grizzly, but sometimes you wonder if there is a limit to stupidity?
 
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