Bump in the yard 0545hrs

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I, thats me, have the right to throw anyone on my property I do not want there. Its called criminal tresspass.
Ok. How 'you going to do it? Yell at them from cover? Fine. Blast 'em with an air horn and turn a few hundred lumes of lighting on them, great.

Walk out and get in their faces? Well, that's your RIGHT, of course, but (again...and again) what happens next is no longer entirely up to you.

Never said anything about a threat of lethal force. ... What they do from there is their choice. Never said I was gonna murder anyone, never said I was going to threaten anyone bodily harm.

O.k. So what is it? "Get off my lawn, PLEASE?" Is that convincing? What if they don't GO? I thought you were bringing a shotgun? Why bring a shotgun if you aren't going to threaten them or possibly commit bodily harm? Truth is you ARE presenting a threat to them. "Get off my lawn -- OR ELSE!" That's what a shotgun says. You may be able to handle it in such a way as to not meet the legal definition of a threat, but you are sending a message.

They will either respond to that message by flight, by calling your bluff, or by attacking you. Flight is great. The other two possibilities get messy and have highly uncertain outcomes.

I never said I was going to murder anyone for being on my land in an unlawfull manner.

O.k. We get it. SO what WERE you going to do? You keep mentioning pie. Does that have something to do with it? :scrutiny:
 
No, it's not clear because it's not true. You do not have the right to forcibly remove someone from your property for trespassing, even criminal trespass.

You can ask them to leave and if they don't your only response is to call law enforcement.

I have to disagree. I don't know about anywhere else but in Ky you can use physical force to stop a crime agains property. I posted the actual law copied and pasted in the thread "reacting to a homeintruder" if you want to look at it.
 
Caselaw in TX gives us more room to act in protecting property than any other state in the Union.

Since I moved to the state in 1993 We have the Joe Horn case and some others where property owners used deadly force to protect property and they were NO Billed by the Grand Jury.
 
I have to disagree. I don't know about anywhere else but in Ky you can use physical force to stop a crime agains property. I posted the actual law copied and pasted in the thread "reacting to a homeintruder" if you want to look at it.

Is someone standing in your driveway a crime against property in KY? This is turning into a nit picky legal argument and that's not the intent of S&T. The point is that are you willing to risk your freedom and all that money for legal fees to remove someone from your property? Maybe, maybe not depending on the situation. But that's something that ought to come into the analysis of every situation before acting. If you go out armed is it possible that you will find yourself the defendant? If so, is it really worth going out in the first place? That's all I'm saying, that should be part of your decision making process.

Since I moved to the state in 1993 We have the Joe Horn case and some others where property owners used deadly force to protect property and they were NO Billed by the Grand Jury.

Yes, and even that was not for trespassing, that case was for a clearly defined crime being committed, and witnessed by a police officer.
 
Is someone standing in your driveway a crime against property in KY?

Sorry I was still thinking theif.

Side note: I'd bet my left thumb that if someone is standing in my driveway uninvited, I could watch them long enough and they would start stealing. Like I said, you have to make an effort to come to my house. If they are there uninvited I would say its for a reason.
 
Sorry I was still thinking theif.

No I understand, and maybe it is a thief. All I'm saying is that the legal ramifications need to be considered before acting on a situation as much as any other tactical item.
 
All I'm saying is that the legal ramifications need to be considered before acting on a situation as much as any other tactical item.

I agree totally. I think it is a personal choice on what your are willing to do in each individual situation. There is no tactical blanket that covers all scenarios.

I enjoy reading everyone elses point of views and am taking deep consideration to what everyone says. I like probing guys like sam and yourself for information that I am not aware of.

If you read some of my earlier posts in some other threads like the one I stated earlier, I have came along way.

I like debating and considering.
 
If you read some of my earlier posts in some other threads like the one I stated earlier, I have came along way.
I think if you could read things that many of us have written over the years we have all come a long way. And have a long way to go.

I like debating and considering.
It is rewarding to test and revise ideas in a forum setting -- and to get to offer some meaty nuggets for others to ponder. There are some really insightful and experienced people here. I learn something valuable every single day. And the debates sharpen, hone, or refine what I think I know. Beliefs and conclusions have to be held up to challenge or you really don't know their worth.

:)
 
he now has massive legal fees, the likelihood of legal charges (and property confiscation), and the possibility of jail time and a felony record. And, in the end, he ended up killing someone over "stuff." This isn't a WIN.

Not where I live. First off I know my states laws. I keep a copy in the car and another in the house, even fire proofed.

If I ever need to use lethal force it will be 100% legal. In my state if a conviction hungry DA goes after a legal shoot, when the verdict comes back innocent. Well, the DA has to pay all the legal fees and pay for wages lost during the trial.

Gonna tell me I am full of it. You seem pretty smart lemme know what you find when you look through the RCW of my state. RCW 9A.16.110.

Far fetched "I think" posts are just that. There is no one here that can tell me when I can or can not legaly throw someone off my property. I already know. Not a single person here probably knows the RCWs better than I do. Its where I live, I got myself covered. Your speculative posts are telling me nothing I do not already know. I dont care what the laws are where you live. I would let you know it would be a good idea to memorize them and keep a couple copies on hand and checkup for revisions on a regular interval.

I can and will tell someone to leave my property when I feel like it. I will not have a pie in my hand. I will be 100% legal in all my actions. Go hide, call the police. Give them flowers for all I care. Its your life to live your own way, as is mine....
 
O.k. So what is it? "Get off my lawn, PLEASE?" Is that convincing? What if they don't GO? I thought you were bringing a shotgun? Why bring a shotgun if you aren't going to threaten them or possibly commit bodily harm? Truth is you ARE presenting a threat to them. "Get off my lawn -- OR ELSE!" That's what a shotgun says. You may be able to handle it in such a way as to not meet the legal definition of a threat, but you are sending a message.

WHen I am on my land I can carry a pie, or a shotgun. Its my land and my shotgun. Maybe I carry one all the time. I can legaly do that ya know. The shotgun is not present to threaten anything. It is there to defend. When I am on my land I have 100% legal rights to carry any legal firearm. I can and will. If someone does not want to leave, the next course of action is on them. If they want to threaten a shotgun tottin' home owner, then NOT having one would be a much worse case. Keep in mind now. I have the right to throw them off. The shotgun is not used to threaten anything. It is there for my defense on my land where I have the 100% legal right to carry it as I see fit. A tire iron or bat would be no different. It is a legal posession I can carry as I please on my land. It will go along with me if I feel I need to bring it out in ontop of or under my land. Its mine. The land, the shotgun, the property they want to take from me, all of it. What they do from there is up to them. If they want to commit suicide, so be it. If they want to run, then good. I hope they call the police. My 911 call will have already been logged. I can do any legal action on my land I legaly want to. If I have a legaly owned shotgun and legaly throw someone off my land, then no laws have been broken.

It all boils down to let the school yard bully slap the <removed by moderator> out of you everyday to avoid conflict or kick him square in the nutts. The choice is yours. As long as I keep it legal it is of no ones concern how I do things.

The OP likes his stuff and threw them off his land. He got some good pointers. All you have to go on is 'expert' advice and classes or training. Speaks volumes about how you know things can and will go.......
 
WHen I am on my land I can carry a pie, or a shotgun. Its my land and my shotgun. Maybe I carry one all the time. I can legaly do that ya know. The shotgun is not present to threaten anything. It is there to defend. When I am on my land I have 100% legal rights to carry any legal firearm. I can and will. If someone does not want to leave, the next course of action is on them. If they want to threaten a shotgun tottin' home owner, then NOT having one would be a much worse case. Keep in mind now. I have the right to throw them off. The shotgun is not used to threaten anything. It is there for my defense on my land where I have the 100% legal right to carry it as I see fit. A tire iron or bat would be no different. It is a legal posession I can carry as I please on my land. It will go along with me if I feel I need to bring it out in ontop of or under my land. Its mine. The land, the shotgun, the property they want to take from me, all of it. What they do from there is up to them. If they want to commit suicide, so be it. If they want to run, then good. I hope they call the police. My 911 call will have already been logged. I can do any legal action on my land I legaly want to. If I have a legaly owned shotgun and legaly throw someone off my land, then no laws have been broken.


Just because it is legal for you to do so doesn't mean it is wise to do so...

You may also be surprised what kind of legal loopholes allow criminals to press charges against the victims who LEGALLY defended themselves. The victims may have won their case eventually but they had to spend their time and money to get themselves cleared. There are also plenty who have been charged with manslaughter for defending their property when a 911 call may have handled it sufficiently.

It all boils down to let the school yard bully slap the <removed by moderator> out of you everyday to avoid conflict or kick him square in the nutts. The choice is yours. As long as I keep it legal it is of no ones concern how I do things.

Seems like your looking at this in an emotional POV instead of a logical POV. A principal breaking up a schoolyard scuffle is light years away from explaining and defending your actions to a courtroom while your freedom hangs in the balance.
 
Warning shots are an EXTREMELY bad idea.

Yup, and it can get you killed. Happened here in WA, at Lake Sammamish State Park just a few weeks ago. Two groups of people chilling with spouses and children. A guy from one group starts taunting a guy from the other. The two get into a fist-fight. Somebody from one of the groups pulls a gun out and fires a warning shot in order to break up the fight. This causes a couple of guys from the other group to also pull out guns and start firing. Ugly. Two dead, four injured.
 
What you should have done is this (IANAL, but it's what I'd do):

- Stay in the house.
- Call the cops and inform them that somebody is burglarizing RIGHT NOW.
- Do not alert the burglars that they have been spotted - you want them to stay around and get caught in the act by the cops (unless, of course, they are starting to steal something valuable enough to warrant you chasing them away).
- Observe carefully, be a good witness. Give detailed description to the police, what they're doing, etc. - this will be much easier if the burglars don't know you've spotted them.
- If you must chase them away, do so by shouting loudly that the police has been called and that they should leave your property; not by going out to confront them.
- If they break into your home, especially if they know they've been spotted, they're fair game.
 
Posted by Boris bush: First off I know my states laws. I keep a copy in the car and another in the house, even fire proofed.
Good. I do hope that you are not relying on a lay reading of the laws for your understanding, and that you have had them explained to you by a competent criminal defense attorney who also knows all of the relevant appellate decisions and other legal precedent.

Over the decades I've learned three important things about that subject: (1) it is unwise to rely on a lay interpretation of any statute and to not be thoroughly knowledgeable of the overall context, including legal precedent; (2) it's never a good idea to try to rationalize risky behavior by trying to convince oneself that a prospective act would be (just) within the law; and (3) one never enjoys the litation process, which will likely be very protracted indeed.

If I ever need to use lethal force it will be 100% legal.
Excellent. The next thing will be for you to provide evidence to support your defense of justification. A broken car window won't help; your unsubstantatied claim that you were threatened would likely not suffice. In the absence of clear, uncontradicted evidence that you had reason to believe that your the use of deadly force had in fact been immediately necessary, you would be in the hot seat. You might prevail, and you might not.

Joe Horn in Texas was lucky enough to have a law enforcement officer witness his shooting and say that Horn fired in self defense. What objective witness would come forth for you?

So you roll the dice....a second time, mind you, since to be in that position you have successfully rolled once on the tactical front and survived.

And that's the real point. Jurisdiction-specific legal issues aside, and I think you underestimate the risk on that front, heading out alone with a shotgun has been widely described here as foolhardy, and no one here has made a convincing argument that it is not.

The OP came out of it OK. The airline mechanic in Houston was not as lucky. Leaving a reasonably secure position to try to find an unknown number of potential threats in poor light alone is just not good strategy--and that's without even asking the question, what would one do if he were to find them without having been ambushed.
 
An acquaintance of mine confronted some high school kids who were vandalizing his car outside a bowling alley. While one of them occupied his attention, another of them circled around behind him and sucker punched him hard enough to require surgery and hospitalization. He never saw it coming and never knew what hit him. Having a gun in his waistband didn't make his skull more impact resistant. It did, however, make him cocky enough to go bulling into a situation where he didn't know how many adversaries he had or where they were all located.
In the end, the kids were finally tracked down and arrested. They got juvenile probation which is now expunged from their records. My acquaintance has lingering problems with double vision. If he'd played things with more caution, the worst that could have happened would have been to pay the $500 deductible on his car and the kids would have got away. Instead, his car got damaged, he got damaged, he paid the deductible on his car insurance and another on his medical insurance, and the kids had to report to their PO once a week at school. Hardly consitutes a win for him, IMO.
I know it doesn't satisfy the 80's action movie model of how the world works, but sometimes winning consists simply of minimizing the damage one takes.
 
Good. I do hope that you are not relying on a lay reading of the laws for your understanding, and that you have had them explained to you by a competent criminal defense attorney who also knows all of the relevant appellate decisions and other legal precedent.

Over the decades I've learned three important things about that subject: (1) it is unwise to rely on a lay interpretation of any statute and to not be thoroughly knowledgeable of the overall context, including legal precedent; (2) it's never a good idea to try to rationalize risky behavior by trying to convince oneself that a prospective act would be (just) within the law; and (3) one never enjoys the litation process, which will likely be very protracted indeed.

So then you are saying I need to heed the advice of someone on the net over my states written laws?

You say you have learned. That means it has happened to you. As in you are experienced on a level of it is something you have done. How long were you convicted for a legal shoot?

Sorry, but your version of my states laws, that you don't even know is advice I will not follow. If you really know my states laws better than I, then fill me in. Somne of you guys here are going out of your way to find reasons to NOT protect your liberty and freedoms. Hey man, if thats how you want to do it, go ahead. Next time something goes bump ask to put things on hold while you debate on the web how to best handle something.

Excellent. The next thing will be for you to provide evidence to support your defense of justification. A broken car window won't help; your unsubstantatied claim that you were threatened would likely not suffice. In the absence of clear, uncontradicted evidence that you had reason to believe that your the use of deadly force had in fact been immediately necessary, you would be in the hot seat. You might prevail, and you might not.

Joe Horn in Texas was lucky enough to have a law enforcement officer witness his shooting and say that Horn fired in self defense. What objective witness would come forth for you?

So you roll the dice....a second time, mind you, since to be in that position you have successfully rolled once on the tactical front and survived.

And that's the real point. Jurisdiction-specific legal issues aside, and I think you underestimate the risk on that front, heading out alone with a shotgun has been widely described here as foolhardy, and no one here has made a convincing argument that it is not.

The OP came out of it OK. The airline mechanic in Houston was not as lucky. Leaving a reasonably secure position to try to find an unknown number of potential threats in poor light alone is just not good strategy--and that's without even asking the question, what would one do if he were to find them without having been ambushed.

The proof will have to be found that I was not legal in what I did. Wife, and if I let them talk to the kids, will prove that preventing rape, kidnapping, and murder was in need of being stopped. The state will not look long and hard into it when everything is in order and they have no need to pay my lawyer and my wages lost after a false trial has found me innocent. Even if I do go on trial, because everyone here knows that you experts here know the laws best (when I highly doubt most of you do based on the simple display of lack of knowledge. You base action on what you think or hope or want things to be), it will be worth it to have kept my family alive and free from what they had in mind.

Your assumtions, thinks and over active imaginations are not a basis on what action to take in a life threatening situation. YOU, yes you need to learn, know and live by your states laws. If you make a chioce to compromise your safety or life. Then that is up to you. I can and will do what is legal. What you think or opine is of no consideration to me.

Some of you guys sound like Mas. Handloads will get you a murder rap. Print it in glossy pages of rags so people will buy the ammo on the next page in an ad for the latest greatest. Then squirm about when people can reply back to his unfounded thinks (when he gets froggy enough to come out and play), assumtions and wild scenarios. I understand he is an 'expert', but remember he is an expert without experience. You guys aren't even published, stop trying to be internet cowboys.

You need to come to grips with reality. If I legaly use a weapon to defend my family first, then myself, I will not be a criminal no matter how much you type about how you think I could have this or that........
 
You say you have learned. That means it has happened to you. As in you are experienced on a level of it is something you have done. How long were you convicted for a legal shoot?

Just to clarify, "happened to you" is not at all necessary to learn something. You use the word experienced in your third sentence, which means something entirely different than learned.

Humans have developed several amazing systems of communication, and we now have ways to pass on that communication around the world in near real time. Through communication we have the ability to learn things without actually doing them.

This thread is a great example of such learning.
Next time something goes bump ask to put things on hold while you debate on the web how to best handle something.
See! Someone who reads this thread before "the next time something goes bump in the night" may have a better idea of how to handle the situation, because they learned from other people's experience and mistakes.

Some of you guys sound like Mas. Handloads will get you a murder rap. Print it in glossy pages of rags so people will buy the ammo on the next page in an ad for the latest greatest. Then squirm about when people can reply back to his unfounded thinks (when he gets froggy enough to come out and play), assumtions and wild scenarios. I understand he is an 'expert', but remember he is an expert without experience. You guys aren't even published, stop trying to be internet cowboys.

Mas is a member here. If you have questions about his thoughts you may want to send him a PM.
 
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Please cite one state where it is legal to use deadly force to stop a trespasser.

Why does everyone keep throwing up this straw man? You have every right to carry a firearm on your property in most states. You have every right to expel a thief on your property in most states. Should some person (during the commission of a felony) attack you while you are legally carrying a weapon and expelling a criminal trespasser, then you have every right to defend yourself in most states.

Is that true in all states? No. However, it is true in most states, and certainly in mine.

If you live in a liberal state, then your best bet is to peek out the window and wave bye-bye to your property. If you live in a free state, then you have further options. One of them is to prevent the theft.
 
I suppose at some point all who can cross over from one side to the other will have done so and then we'll just be throwing rocks at each other. That's no good.

To quote my kids, "Are we THERE yet?" :rolleyes:

Seems pretty apparant that we've finished choosing sides and learning from each other. Those who will learn/change have. Those (like me, I guess) who just won't, ... well, just won't. Anyone object to turning out the lights on this one?

Boris, KB: Either of you want to put in a few last words before I hit the switch? I don't want to cut you off, rudely. But we're clearly running over well-trodden ground at this point.
 
My last word.

I have in real life held a person at gun point for a property crime. This is real life, not a thought up scenario.

Take it as you will. Thats it.......

My expereince based info I provide should help. Maybe......
 
you carry a fireproofed copy of your states laws? in your car? wow i drive a picvkup and not sure i could do that. what state is that? i noticed you forgot to mention
 
I have in real life held a person at gun point for a property crime. This is real life, not a thought up scenario.

Take it as you will. Thats it.......

My expereince based info I provide should help. Maybe......



as a young man i often confused my blind dumb luck with skill and daring
 
Lets say there are 200 people lined up next to a big hole in the ground and 3 people with assault weapons about 10 yards behind them.

They can either charge the 3 people with the assault weapons and watch a few people die or they can stand there and everyone dies.......

Even if I were the only one to charge, I would not die just standing there..
 
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