Bump in the yard 0545hrs

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Tell y'all what.

I'll come back and check on this thread in a while.

If it's still about bears & salmon or the righteous morality of standing up to evil or the obvious choice between protecting what's yours and simpering cowardice, I'll close it.

Of course, someone else with less patience may show up before then and close it.


Or, y'know, the thread could become a discussion of the strategies of pre-planning and preparation or the tactics of how to keep your home from becoming a failure example for shoot-house scenarios.


I guess we'll see.

Times like this, I sure miss Ken and his wealth of practical knowledge.


Of course, Sam may be having too much fun, and I wouldn't want to spoill that for him.

:D

 
What if the OP was a Police Officer? Would you still tell him to wait inside and call the police? Would he still be foolish in going outside to stop a crime, which is his job to do? Just curious.
I wouldn't even HAVE to tell a law-enforcement officer this. Call for back-up, be a good witness, use cover, use concealment, be patient.

There are times when an officer MUST take risks that a general citizen does not in order to do his duty. But protection of minor-league private property is generally not one.
 
Some folk have actually gone out of their way to present options that preserve the dynamic of protecting property WITHOUT also making foolish mistakes that could result in death or injury to the homeowner. Sadly, those messages seem to be getting lost in the rush to take a side.

Uh yeah, as in post number #23 where the OP is advised to think about exterior lighting. concealment, etc, with the advice given in a positive fashion. He was unprepared yet hopefully, he'll ignore the insults delivered by a few low-roaders, and take the advice proffered by those who just want to help.

There is a school of thought that runs through all these threads that one should never confront a criminal on your property or even in your house, but just hole up and dial 911 (with gun at the ready). That's fine if that's what you want to do, and if the cops are five minutes away.

Others (like myself) are going to advocate confronting the criminal. That doesn't mean charging out into the dark half awake and clutching a shotgun. It means thinking in advance about things like lighting, dogs, concealment as it applies to the layout of your own home and yard and then using those advantages.

People have different situations, different incomes, different police response times. They may not be able to afford an expensive security system. They may have children in rooms on different floors. They have different mental attitudes about how far they're willing to go to protect their family or their property.

This should be a place where one can discuss these issues without being insulted.
 
Times like this, I sure miss Ken and his wealth of practical knowledge.

Oh... I'm sure he's around ... somewhere. ;)

I'd rather hate to see this closed, but it may come down to a bit of an impasse.

Some folks will not accept that risking your life to protect property -- especially in ways that dramatically lower your defensive posture -- is a reasonable idea.

Some folks will not accept that not directly, forcefully, confronting someone who is causing you harm/loss is a reasonable idea.

I suppose at some point all who can cross over from one side to the other will have done so and then we'll just be throwing rocks at each other. That's no good.
 
Of course. And then what? Shoot them? Go back inside?

We've been down that discussion before a page or two ago and you didn't answer then question then. Will you now?

Perhaps you watch too much TV? Do you really think the entire Hells Angels club is going to be standing in your yard stealing your CD player or car? It's going to be a couple of low-lifes trying to put together fifty bucks. If you point a gun at them and say "Get the hell out of here", they're going to comply.
 
AssUMe

It's going to be a couple of low-lifes trying to put together fifty bucks. If you point a gun at them and say "Get the hell out of here", they're going to comply.

Where I come from, we call that an "assumption."

 
I suppose at some point all who can cross over from one side to the other will have done so and then we'll just be throwing rocks at each other. That's no good.

That's already happened, and it started in post 31 when somebody called the OP a fool.

Some folks will not accept that not directly, forcefully, confronting someone who is causing you harm/loss is a reasonable idea.

That's an opinion (your opinion), not a truth engraved in stone.
 
People have different situations, different incomes, different police response times. They may not be able to afford an expensive security system. They may have children in rooms on different floors. They have different mental attitudes about how far they're willing to go to protect their family or their property.
Absolutely! That's why so very many different -- very basic and accessible -- alternatives have been presented. We started out this thread with someone telling how he ran out of the house in his underwear with his eyes our of commission, racking a shotgun when he didn't know the situation.

A lot of folks responded with "attaboys" and "you did good!"

Now, we've worked around to where most folks are admitting that there were flaws in that plan, but telling him that such was foolish (a few pages ago, at least) was rude. :rolleyes:

This should be a place where one can discuss these issues without being insulted.
Agreed! No insults, no braggadocio, no egos. I think we're getting there.
 
Now, we've worked around to where most folks are admitting that there were flaws in that plan, but telling him that such was foolish (a few pages ago, at least) was rude

Thanks for manning up! But actually, if you look back and read those "attaboys" they're more like "Attaboy, but... next time consider this, that and the other thing first."
 
Perhaps you watch too much TV? Do you really think the entire Hells Angels club is going to be standing in your yard stealing your CD player or car? It's going to be a couple of low-lifes trying to put together fifty bucks. If you point a gun at them and say "Get the hell out of here", they're going to comply.

Well, I guess that's a plan, then... :scrutiny:

No, it isn't. It certainly does work sometimes, at least if your criminal is of a pretty benign sort. If it doesn't work you're in a BAD spot. As others have said, a lot of criminals have a lot more experience on the wrong end of a gun than you do. A lot of them have very little to lose. A lot of them have been shot before, maybe multiple times, and know that 80% of gunshot victims live to tell the tale.

Are you still defending the idea of walking out into the yard and issuing commands? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. If you're saying keep yourself in a strong defensive position and order them off your property, I'm right there with you.

Pulling the human silhouette/piñata routine? No, not at all.
 
Where I come from, those who allow others to loot their home and property without interference are called "residents of Chicago".
Hurr!

I love it when anyone that offers an idea that is different than "kill 'em all and let God sort them out" that person has their manhood and character called into question by the real men in the thread. Classy. Close this down, it long ago stopped being about S&T and has hence been about nothing more than thumping one's chest.
 
SAM 1911

All you need to understand is if you ever do need to put forth your knowledge and use a plan. It is not going to happen the way you want it to. You may have to react in a way that is not 100% totaly tacticaly sound.

FWIW I just got back from my last tour. We deployed with a 'leader' who spent 12 years in "training" he had never deployed until this last time. He left his rifle on the truck on two seperate raids. When one of his trucks got hit he had to be physicaly restrained while others took over. We can learn all we want. We can be advised by every expert out there. You have no clue what is going to happen until it is all over with. When you do put a plan itno work all you need to know is you just threw a wrench in the plans of the person trying to steal from you, or harm you. Most the time the BG will panic because they lack training how to handle that confrontation. Keep your cool and let their plan fall apart.

You may not have ever needed to, but it appears you got a good idea and some good plans on what you want to do. Stick to them and think out (fast) what you do before you do it.

We never stop learning and any and all advice is great advice at this round table we sit at. What we can not do is say what another does is wrong or bad. He did what he did, lucky stupid or not.

I aint even mentioned any 'war' stories. Them are totaly different. I know exactly what it is like to be in a home invasion. Seen the looks on faces and done a few things. I know how to give myself the earliest warning possible if it were to happen to me, and the person doing it will not like the look on my face if they ever are brave enough, or good enough to get in. Everything I own is fenced in and locked up. I did have a masked burglar in my yard a few nights ago though. Dang raccoon scared my wife at about 2330 when she went out to smoke. Closest weapon was the boys pelletgun. Did a good number on him. He was digging holes in the yard, getting in my trash, tried to get in my house. I was in my boxers and only had my mini tactical coast flashlight that runs on one aaa battery. That didnt stop me from gettin' to it. No more holes in the yard, no more trash to pickup and the screen wont get damaged anymore. He did hiss and put up a fit for about a minute. I sure would have wanted the 9mm, 22rf or 12 gauge, but the pellet gun was still out from practice earlier in the day. Worked fine.
 
Not even close to the same thing. A brown bear breaking into food stores I need to survive the winter is vastly different than some two bit thief stealing my car stereo which insurance will replace. Yeah those are totally the same thing.

It is the same thing. This isn't some Inuit village - there's a Safeway only a couple of beers drive away :) and all that fish can be replaced for ten bucks a pound. The individual may even have homeowners insurance that would write him a check for the loss. He simply chose to deal with the situation himself.
That used to be way things were handled by all people in this country - you dealt with it, whatever "it" was.
 
sam,

you seem pretty knowledgeable about what is or isn't tactically correct.

I am one who would have to stop the crime in progress if it was to be stopped due to response time and etc. I am also one who would find it necessary to stop it.

Now before you repeat yourself once again, I have a legitimate question.

I have no neighbors, alot of outside obsticles (sheds, outbuildings, garden close to home, you get the idea) so lighting is financially impossible to cover all areas.

What would you do to stop the crime, saying you had to for whatever reason, besides just flashing lights and such?

I realize your first impulse is to say call the cops, wait inside, protect your health and so on, but where I live it is literally a 25-30 minute response time. That is a long time to sit and watch someone load up everything you worked for.

So if you really want to help, tell me how to tactically stop the crime all by my lonesome cause that is how it would have to go down.

I'm leaving my mind completely open to you as long as you leave yours open to the fact that I would have to interven.
 
Based on your earlier statement that the food was taken using a Sustenance Tag I was under the notion that this food was for survival. Not that there is a Safeway a short drive away. So based on the details of your original statement and my understanding of it, they are not the same thing. But now you have given greater detail which would lead me to believe that your first statement was meant to bait someone it to jumping on it. Way to go...

you dealt with it, whatever "it" was.
Glad there is more than one way to deal with "it", at least in the real world. Teh interwebz is a whole other matter.
 
Are you still defending the idea of walking out into the yard and issuing commands? Perhaps I'm misunderstanding. If you're saying keep yourself in a strong defensive position and order them off your property, I'm right there with you.

I'll refer back to my original post, and several subsequent posts. Have a plan - lighting, concealment, dogs, whatever it takes in your situation, then deal with it.

And I won't even argue that if you live in a place with a quick police response time, then don't deal with it - let the cops handle it.

Not everyone has that luxury. The police may be an hour away. You may have them in your house and you may have children on different floors. You may be unemployed and not have theft insurance on your vehicle - the vehicle you must have to find a job.

Sometimes you have to deal with things yourself. Your situation is not his situation is not her situation.
 
Beeenbag, I'm not Sam but I have an actual bit of advice.

Sam's Club (and other places, no doubt) sell a 10 million candlepower "flashlight" for about 25 bucks. They're huge and heavy, and bright.

I use one for coyotes at night when they get too close. On 'spot', I can literally turn an area 700 yards away into daylight, and on 'flood', I can see most of my yard easily (my yard is 35 acres). They're also good for warming your backside without a campfire. ;) Only problem I see with human predators though, is it gives them something to shoot at, so you may consider setting the light down and moving away from it once you have lit up the suspects.

If you get one though, don't yield to the temptation to point it at a road or up in the air at an airplane. I guarantee the cops will be on their way if you do that. :uhoh:
 
Distraction, Being Cased, etc.

Her is my concern based on the fact, I was raised, and spent decades, in a hi-risk industry.
I. Was. A. Target.
In some respects, I still am, and always will be.

Different Models of criminals, exist.

My set-ups, and lessons, (ya'll call these "training") consisted of private lessons, based on REAL life occurrences.
Yes, some folks in the industry went outside, to check on a noise, or let the pet inside/outside, or had a wife/husband/child, etc, outside, and then the criminals had hostages, and forced at gunpoint,...other nasty things to occur.

I have had windows busted out, in a shed out back, or a vehicle. I have had folks bump my or another one of us, vehicles, parked in the street, or hotel/motel lot.
All sorts of "ploys" can be used, to distract, and to case you.

I had the phone ring, in the wee hours, to inform me, the alarm at a business was going off.
I was tired, sleepy, groggy, and I got two steps outside, when my brain screamed "danger!" and I ran back inside.

I called the Alarm company, and they said they did NOT show the alarm going off.
Police were called to drive by the business, and they reported it had not / was not going off, and no apparent signs of any trouble.

I saw the bad guys, in the parking lot, of the apt complex where I was staying. I saw them armed!
THEY called, pretending to be alarm company , just to get me outside, where they could overtake me.

I messed up. One always calls Alarm company back, and has code words, and codes on a alarm panel. Always!

Our code was: they can have the merchandise, but they cannot have us.
Stuff is insured, and can be replaced.
WE, knew too much about people, places and things. along with some other, very serious, security matters, which I will not share.

So no, I/we did not "react" to going outside, as not only did we put our selves in more harms way, we also put others in harms way.

I am speaking of some serious, professional persons here folks. One time they had me as their primary target. Just, I had a reputation as being hard to run down.

Since I could not be found, they went to target number two, and I knew this guy, and his family.
They had his wife and kid, (who thankfully was sick, and taking meds) when they got to him. They drove him around for hours, in the trunk of his car, and all the while, some of the "less" professional , took turns with his wife.
The kid, on those meds, was asleep, and never woke up.

They forced him at gun point, to go to where they wanted, forced him to shut off alarms, open safes, and then beat him, really bad, after they got what they came for.

You cannot put dollar value on human life, period, much less human life being sexually assaulted, raped, and beaten.
I don't give a damn how much your property is worth, it will never have a greater value, than human life.


Now, we did not have all we have today, as far as technology. In fact, some of the technology that was available, like some today, is/could advertise to criminals and make matters worse.
Add, we traveled , and we had places we stayed, besides hotels and motels, and condos.

Yes, there are some simple things one can do, as far as "equipment". The one thing we always had, and we still have with us, all the time, is the brain.
That is all we all have, all the time, is the brain. Train the brain first.

If you learn on a crutch, then if you lose that crutch, you will fall down.
Meaning, quit making "things" the default answer to every problem, such as guns.
Make your brain, the default and by doing so, you have so much more at your disposal to deal with criminals and criminal acts.


How would you take you down?
 
Based on your earlier statement that the food was taken using a Sustenance Tag I was under the notion that this food was for survival. Not that there is a Safeway a short drive away. So based on the details of your original statement and my understanding of it, they are not the same thing. But now you have given greater detail which would lead me to believe that your first statement was meant to bait someone it to jumping on it. Way to go...

There is no "baiting". People in Alaska can take X amount of fish and game on a subsistence license. So much salmon, so much, crab, so much deer, caribou, etc. If you want to fill your freezer on a sporting license, you can take two reds a day. Or you can use your subsistence license and take two hundred on a gill net. Rich people do this, poor people do this, everybody does this. Most/many people in rural areas have smokehouses - just a shack to alder smoke salmon, which are then vac-packed and frozen. People buy cheap chest freezers and keep them in the garage or outbuildings.

It's just property, pure and simple. It was not my intention to deceive you into thinking I live in an igloo with Internet access.
 
so ok I now have the place lit up. What should you do to follow up and stay as close to tactically correct as possible while trying to stop the crime? Do you approach? Do you stay put and give verbal commands? What is tactically sound so to speak?

I know that 9 times out of 10 once the light comes on they are gone, also 9 times out of 10 once you give a verbal command they are gone. Lets just say this theif isn't cooperative. What is the tactical way of stopping the crime?

I'm asking because if this situation ever pops up I will have to put a stop to it, call me hard headed, but it basically is me vs. them and thats it.
 
There is no "baiting". People in Alaska can take X amount of fish and game on a subsistence license. So much salmon, so much, crab, so much deer, caribou, etc. If you want to fill your freezer on a sporting license, you can take two reds a day. Or you can use your subsistence license and take two hundred on a gill net. Rich people do this, poor people do this, everybody does this. Most/many people in rural areas have smokehouses - just a shack to alder smoke salmon, which are then vac-packed and frozen. People buy cheap chest freezers and keep them in the garage or outbuildings.

It's just property, pure and simple. It was not my intention to deceive you into thinking I live in an igloo with Internet access.
In that case I retract my baiting statement and I am sorry that I made it seem like you were baiting me. I learn something new everyday.
 
I'm asking because if this situation ever pops up I will have to put a stop to it, call me hard headed, but it basically is me vs. them and thats it.
I would say it depends on the laws in KY as to what your next move would be. If you go out to confront them you need to make sure that you are not in anyway violating a law that could land you in jail. Studying the laws in KY would be a great start. Then take a look at your property and see if there are any areas of natural cover/ concealment and our shadow that you could use to your advantage. Personally I would not leave the house unless I had no other choice but if I am going to move I want to know where I can move and still have a tactical advantage.
 
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