Bump in the yard 0545hrs

[Kleanbore]

Posts 63 and 64....

..are a very effective way to communicate the real issues.

I had not thought of that approach. Apparently no amount of reasoning will persuade some people that carrying a gun does not give them the invincibility written into the script for the protagonist in a screen drama. Showing what the citizen looks like as a target for an unseen perp lurking in the dark, however, and asking what it is that makes him think that he will see all of them first, should get across a few points to at least some people.

Providing constructive "what to do" advice as done in Post 65 is also worthwhile. That advice should accomplish all of the OP's legitimate objectives while very effectively reducing the risks of

• Getting shot, stabbed, clubbed, and maimed or killed by one or more prowlers as the result of unwise tactics,
• Being mistaken for a criminal by an arriving first responder summoned by a neighbor or by an armed citizen and suffering the consequences,
• and/or ending up on the wrong side of the law after a confrontation.

Posted by shockwave: Grabbing the shotgun and checking the situation out does not, in this analysis, appear to be a foolhardy move.

Well, in the final analysis, it sure appears in retrospect to have been very foolhardy when the airline mechanic in Houston grabbed his shotgun and went out to check the situation out when he heard someone making noise around his trailer.

He was ambushed, stabbed, disarmed, and shot, and had an arm amputated and lost his livelihood. It could have been worse.

 

[waterhouse]

With regards to HSO's posted silhouette in post 63, we shot at silhouette targets quarterly for qualifications. Most people have done the same at a range.

Our instructors liked to emphasize that in real life you generally were not shooting at nice, bold silhouettes, because in real life people hide behind things or angle their bodies or it is dark or they are standing against similar colored background, etc. There are tons of situations in real life that the target isn't a nice, clean, perfect silhouette like we practiced on, but one of them that works out pretty well is standing in a back-lit doorway.

The lesson from our instructors was first, that shots in real life were much harder than qualification targets, and second, stay the hell away from back-lit doorways.

 

[SSN Vet]

Though I most likely would not have done likewise...

I fully support the OPs right to protect his property (or that of his family).

 

[hso]

I fully support the OPs right to protect his property (or that of his family).

And so do I, but it's "how" you go about it that is critical.

 

[shockwave]

Good thoughts, kleanbore, and I agree with Sam, hso and others on many points as well. My remark about being comfortable and confident about walking outside the house wasn't meant as a paean to machismo, but simply an observation that, in the general scheme of things, there should be nothing remarkable or extraordinary about investigating suspicious activity around the house and grounds.

Ultimate strategy and tactics can allow you to defeat a gang of crazed ninjas attacking in coordinated waves, and the best defense is absolutely to have a safe room or a defensive vector behind cover. We know it's best to prepare your own ambush and to present the minimum target possible and there's no debate on the point.

All of this depends on a great number of variables - how much crime is in your area, your value as a target, the layout of your property, etc. I don't see a one-size-fits-all solution. You have to read each case out as it happens. Here, a bit more surveillance, a bit more preparation would have been better, but I'll be hanged if I'm going to let someone molest my property unchallenged - absent reasons to do otherwise.

So you see 2 punk kids acting hinky on your property, and you grab your shotgun and walk out to see what is going on. You have the upper hand, because you can see both people and you have the shotgun, and you know how to use it. Now the third guy who was just waiting for someone to walk out the door blindsides you with a steel pipe ...

That would be a trap, wouldn't it. Two out making some kind of disturbance with one at the door ready to waylay you. Logically, if they're that intent on getting you, all three should just lurk and train their weapons on the door and get you when you go out to get the paper. It's possible, but that's a lot of what-ifs.

Here, opening the front door and venturing out does depend on whether there's glass in the door or beside it, and it would be smart to check first before emerging, for the reasons you give. Of course it would be best to wait until one's eyes aren't blurry, etc.

Worst case is myself, wife, and daughter get killed because I opened the door to my house knowing that there were bad people outside.

Right. But we don't know that there are bad people outside. Only that there are people and their business needs to be ascertained. It would be difficult for me, personally, to be unable to make that challenge but how to go about doing that depends on the architecture of the house, where the persons are in relation to it, what they are doing, etc.

 

[sm]

Though I was not present in the original posts situation, from what I have gathered, this was not handled well at all.

Strategy & Tactics are about preventive strategy and tactics, , as much as they are evading, and dealing head on with a threat.

Property that is well lit, maintained, and have / give the perceptions, the residing individuals, have taken prudent steps to discourage criminals, are one strategy and tactic.

Another strategy and tactic, is simple:
The earlier one gets a signal, the more distance they have with a situation.
"Distance" is not just inches, feet and yards, also time.

With this "distance", one should have practiced plans, with backup plans, as to how to deal with various situations. Including, but not limited to property theft, intrusions, burglary in progress, accosting while on the premises, fire, tornado ( any serious weather), power outages, gas leaks, live wires down, etc.

A "priority" in strategy and tactics is, taking responsibility of ones self first. If you don't take care of you, than you cannot be there for others, and in fact, may complicate the situation for others, including family, neighbors and first responders.

Don't park the damn truck where it can be easily accessed.
Don't advertise, by any means, what is /or may be in the vehicle.
Layered defenses, starting with a maintained yard, motion lights, audible alarms, flashing lights...(one could have these, on the structure, visible to property, to assist in criminals exiting property).

Access, investigate and verify, how YOU would take you down, if you were a criminal.

 

[hso]

If we're smart and prepared it shouldn't require us to leave the security of the suburban house until we're more confident that people aren't there any more than being suspicious that they are.

As to the ambush by the doorway, it's far more probable that a frightened punk hiding in the deep shadow of your car is likely to bonk you on the head with a pry bar in hopes of getting away from the shotgun toting Pillsbury Dough-boy in the Bart Simpson boxer shorts and flip flops fumbling around in the dark than some ninja is waiting by your door. Regardless, you're still just as concussed.

I live out in the country, but close enough to town and on the edge of suburbs. I've stood in a darkened house with weapon and flashlight at low ready listening patiently and watching the dogs and keeping an eye on the alarm panel while waiting for motion sensor lights to trigger telling me if anything bigger than a Labrador was moving outside. I can observe the front walk from up stairs or from 8 ft above it and I can observe the space between the garage and the kitchen either from up stairs or any room on that side of the house. I can let the dogs out from either side of the house and they streak to the side where they detect noise. I can see any door from another vantage without having to stand in front of the door. Every corner has motion sensor flood lights to take away the night while I stand concealed in the dark.

On one occasion I was awakened to find that it was silly friends that couldn't tell time showing up too late at night and deciding to use the hot tub anyway. The second was far more serious when a violent fight at the neighbors triggered the dogs waking me up and having one stumble up to the house with a scalp wound. Being able to see what was going on outside without being seen allowed me to be much more certain of what I might face in the middle of the night.

 

[03Shadowbob]

First things first (for me anyways) is don't put your morality on me. Your morality is just that. YOURS. Not mine. I can promise you my morality is different than yours for the most part.
Secondly, I can relate with the OP going outside to protect his belongings. I have done just that in the past not that it was the right thing to do though. I can see both sides of the argument and will save my opinion on what I would do lest I be crucified like Christ on here.
One thing you can do is stay in the house and yell at the BG's that the cavalry is coming as well as turning on all lights, sirens etc..

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Morality?

First things first (for me anyways) is don't put your morality on me. Your morality is just that. YOURS. Not mine. I can promise you my morality is different than yours for the most part.
Secondly, I can relate with the OP going outside to protect his belongings. I have done just that in the past not that it was the right thing to do though. I can see both sides of the argument and will save my opinion on what I would do lest I be crucified like Christ on here.
One thing you can do is stay in the house and yell at the BG's that the cavalry is coming as well as turning on all lights, sirens etc..

Shadowbob, did you not read my earlier post?

I thought I was pretty clear about leaving morality out of the discussion.

Strategic and tactical concerns have to do with stayin' alive, keepin' the family safe, and doin' yer best to keep the damned lawyers out of it (lawyers can be a bigger strategic liability than thieves).

Morality is in a different book by a different author.

We be talkin' Strat-n-Tac here.

 

[03Shadowbob]

Arfin,
I read it and I did not put my morality on the situation. I was more so pointing out some on here including your own moderators who like to bring out morality.

 

[joe_security]

Interesting discussion. As for me, theres no way I would have went out there to protect a car or anything in it. I have auto insurance. I favor the remote control approach, ie, turn on the sprinkler, lights, alarms, call LE on them. Only when they begin an assault on the occupied dwelling will any force come into play. I frequent areas with very fast LE response. Put me in a very rural setting and I will still hang back and wait out the BGs, forcing them to flee or fight on my terms. If I need to wait for a Deputy, so be it. I am not sticking my neck out for any unknown factors to pop up and cripple or kill me.

 

[KodiakBeer]

So, if not shooting, then you're counting on harsh language? Threats and commands?

Now you've confronted someone. You've brandished your weapon. They didn't blink. Now what?

Do you really think a criminal is just going to stand there under your gun and not "blink"? There's no such thing as "brandishing" a weapon on your own property when stopping a crime in most states, and certainly not in mine. You have every legal right to stop a crime on your property. You have every legal right to order someone off your property.

 

[Boris bush]

Some of the guys here that are being way too critical of what happened appear to have no experience in defending private posessions on their private property.

FIrst off nothing will ever happen the way you thought it would at the time you think it will by the people you think will do it. If there ever is a first time you will not be able to run a well thought out plan the way you think it is going to go down.

I never thought anyone would try to break into my brothers Camaro when I was house sitting my mom n dads house one night. All I had to do was rack the 12 gauge by the window. I never said a word and never went outside and the flood light switch was down the hall. Many years later my wife came in our first apartment frantic. The neighbor was fighting with a kid that was breaking into all the cars in the parkinglot. I came outside to the well lit parkinglot at about 0100. I racked the shotgun and the kid gaveup while we held him for the law. I was alot younger and the kid was only 15 but there is noway I was getting into a physical fight, and I was legal to take it to the next step because the kid was trying to get to a knife in his pocket. Sometimes things do not happen as planned. I always planned on lighting up the driveway with the flood lights, but an open window and a 12ga racking sent a clear message. I never even seen them but they left a bike behind when the left very fast. All I heard was ohhh S**T!! and the sound of feet running. Neither went as I thought they would have went down. The kid breaking into the cars was lucky I showed up because another neightbor was about to take a baseball bat to him. Everyone was peed off at the criminal kid for all he had stolen.

You never know how things will go down until it is all over. Calling him stupid or lucky or whatever, then picking apart what happened is not our place. Giving him advice on the lights, and motion sensors is great advice. Staying inside and racking the gun would have had the same result and keeping him alot more safe. All great advice. He aint stupid for protecting what is his. He is an adult, it is his stuff, he can defend it as he pleases as long as you are not hurt by it, who cares how he did it. I do hope he learned a few things that will help him do it better next time and that is our place. Name calling, especialy by a moderator is not cool, or anyone else.

For those that do say he is stupid, lets hear about the crimes against you that you have defended against. You dont even need to have had a firearm of anykind. Let us pick you apart. Like I said. Before you quote me, quote the entire sentence. Before you reply in great length. Tell us what your experience on the topic is. As of yet you speak of none. You only opine on what you think. Thinking proves nothing....

 

[KodiakBeer]

Kodiak, he entered a situation with a drawn firearm. IMO, you do NOT pull your weapon unless you intend to use it. It depends highly on where you live, but here in NC, such an individual would be flirting at the verge of the legal definition of lethal force.

I would submit going out to a scene, with no tactical advantage, armed in a provocative stance is unwise.

Yup, and I addressed that in the earlier post. If you're going to confront a criminal you'd best have your ducks in a row, tactically speaking. Cover, concealment, lighting, dogs; whatever it takes. Obviously, the OP will learn from this experience and handle it differently next time.
It's just more high road to point out the flaws in his lack of a plan than to call him names. Personally, I have no issue with confronting criminals on your own property, particularly if you live in a rural area. I would just encourage him to think about these things in advance and be better prepared next time.
There seems to sort of an urban/suburban mindset among many posters; that law enforcement is five minutes away. That's simply not the case for many of us.

 

[03Shadowbob]

What if the OP was a Police Officer? Would you still tell him to wait inside and call the police? Would he still be foolish in going outside to stop a crime, which is his job to do? Just curious.

 

[Joe Demko]

Do you really think a criminal is just going to stand there under your gun and not "blink"?

Based on my interaction with the criminal element spanning several decades and in three different milieus, I'd say that it is not at all unlikely. The crapsack world that tweakers, gangbangers, et.al. inhabit is one where guns are quite often brandished as a dominance display and very, very often fired without effect. They absolutely do not have a visceral fear of guns, even in the hands of a righteously angry homeowner. In fact, some chubbybutt suburbanite in his underwear (or even fully clothed) should not be surprised to hear a sneering "What are you going to do, shoot me?" as the thieves complete their thieving.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Interestingly, somebody shot a brown bear in their yard near me on Sunday night. I don't know the details yet, but most commonly they are trying to break into a fish smoker or freezers storing fish (people put away hundreds of pounds of fish and game on subsistence licenses here).
If one were to follow the advice of many on here, the smart thing would be to just let the bear destroy what it wants and eat all the salmon you've stored. Brown bears are certainly more dangerous than tweakers (never heard of a tweaker eating his victim...). Yet, this neighbor simply confronted the bear rather than call the troopers who would have showed up an hour later to file a report. After dispatching the bear, he then called the troopers who eventually came out and did indeed file that all-important report.

Not all people live in a suburban coccoon. And not all people are willing to allow their property to be carted away by whoever (or whatever) wants to take it.

 

[Joe Demko]

Don't know how we got to bears and salmon...but there we are. Whatever else may happen, an unrighteous shooting (in the opinion of the law) of a bear is not likely to distort one's karma all out of shape like the unrighteous shooting (in the opinion of the law) of a human being, even a tweaker. Bears, fearsome as they are, also don't shoot back and (as far as I am aware) do not typically operate in an organized group fashion.
IAC, whether I chose to throw my life away over a freezer full of fish or a used car, I'd still be just as dead. My wife and daughter would still be without a breadwinner, a husband, and a father. I, of course, wouldn't care about any of this because I'd be lysing in a bear's gut or mouldering in a coffin.
YMMV, but I place the value of my life and my family's security higher than the bluebook value of what is in the driveway.
And just for shiggles, let's keep in mind that the only two outcomes are not triumph over evil or wake up in Valhalla. Is what's in your driveway worth being a paraplegic or wearing a colostomy bag for the rest of your life?

 

[TexasRifleman]

What if the OP was a Police Officer? Would you still tell him to wait inside and call the police? Would he still be foolish in going outside to stop a crime, which is his job to do? Just curious.

Most cops are smart enough to call for help, not try to take on unknown multiple bad guys alone. So yes, if OP was a cop he would most likely have called for help and waited on backup unless other action was immediately necessary to protect someone's life.

 

[Robert]

If one were to follow the advice of many on here, the smart thing would be to just let the bear destroy what it wants and eat all the salmon you've stored.

Not even close to the same thing. A brown bear breaking into food stores I need to survive the winter is vastly different than some two bit thief stealing my car stereo which insurance will replace. Yeah those are totally the same thing.

 

[rbernie]

Not all people live in a suburban coccoon. And not all people are willing to allow their property to be carted away by whoever (or whatever) wants to take it.

Dunno why it has proven popular in this thread to equate 'I would NOT have wandered out into the yard half-asleep' with 'I would have cowered in fear waiting for the po-po to show up'. There are not just two answers to the problem as presented, and it does nobody any favors to draw black-n-white pictures in a world that is comprised of many shades of gray.

Some folk have actually gone out of their way to present options that preserve the dynamic of protecting property WITHOUT also making foolish mistakes that could result in death or injury to the homeowner. Sadly, those messages seem to be getting lost in the rush to take a side.

And that's too dang bad.

 

[Sam1911]

Do you really think a criminal is just going to stand there under your gun and not "blink"?

Not all, but some. Some have been around the block more than once. Some have a LOT less to lose than you do.

There's no such thing as "brandishing" a weapon on your own property when stopping a crime in most states, and certainly not in mine. You have every legal right to stop a crime on your property. You have every legal right to order someone off your property.

Of course. And then what? Shoot them? Go back inside?

We've been down that discussion before a page or two ago and you didn't answer then question then. Will you now?

 

[TexasRifleman]

Not even close to the same thing. A brown bear breaking into food stores I need to survive the winter is vastly different than some two bit thief stealing my car stereo which insurance will replace. Yeah those are totally the same thing.

That and bears don't usually plan ahead with other bears to ambush homeowners who might come to investigate....

This has gone off the deep end now.

 

[Sam1911]

Some of the guys here that are being way too critical of what happened appear to have no experience in defending private possessions on their private property.

Wow. That's quite an assumption. Methinks if you had an idea of the experiences of some of the folks you are addressing (not me, I'm nobody) you'd approach this discussion a little differently.

But that's all pretty irrelevant. Introducing other scenarios into the discussion simply confuses the issue. (See below.)

FIrst off nothing will ever happen the way you thought it would at the time you think it will by the people you think will do it. If there ever is a first time you will not be able to run a well thought out plan the way you think it is going to go down.

On this, you are absolutely right! Does that make having a plan LESS important? Does that make giving up your tactical advantage WISER?

We aren't talking about a well-choreographed ballet, or even an entry team's building clearing procedure. We're advocating VERY basic principles here.

Stay in a position of cover. Don't expose yourself to violent attack. Use alternate means to convince the criminals to leave. Protect what matters MOST and don't endanger it in your attempt to protect what matters LEAST. Don't violate the law while making your armed response.

I never thought anyone would try to break into my brothers Camaro ...

See, this is what I meant about not introducing alternate scenarios. It is terribly distracting. You present a completely different situation with a known hostile, already engaged by a separate "friendly," who is minimally armed (at least in the beginning). And, you went to the defense of another PERSON. I certainly respect that and how you did it may indeed have been reasonable. (Not even going to start to analyze that.)

Calling him stupid or lucky or whatever, then picking apart what happened is not our place.

No one is saying he's a stupid person. He may be a genius. The smartest of us do foolish things sometimes. The smartest of us ALSO will have the humility to ask for constructive criticism and will learn from it. That doesn't mean blanket agreement, but it does mean that we set our bruised egos aside and ask ourselves honestly if there is merit in the advice given.

Tell us what your experience on the topic is. As of yet you speak of none. You only opine on what you think. Thinking proves nothing....

PLEASE, let's not introduce even more war stories. Suffice to say some of us here have learned a great deal from some very good people and some very bad people. Address the question and the proposed advice based on their merits, not on who's got more scars.

(And like I said, I'm nobody. Don't expect to hear battle tales from me.)

 

[Sam1911]

There seems to sort of an urban/suburban mindset among many posters; that law enforcement is five minutes away.

I don't see it. If anything, a very rural defender has just that much longer to bleed out waiting for an ambulance. Six of one, half-dozen of another!