Bump in the yard 0545hrs

[KodiakBeer]

BTW, all the laws vary according to city, county, state and country....

True enough, and you'd best be aware of the law before deciding what course of action you'll follow. In my locale, I'd be absolutely in the clear to engage a thief with a firearm on my property. And if he presents a weapon, I'd be absolutely in the clear for shooting him.

Others mileage may vary.

 

[Jon_Snow]

One doesn't have to kill to protect property. Engaging a thief with a firearm is not a death sentence, it's a "stop robbing me NOW" sentence. If he runs, he runs. If he drops to the ground and waits for the police, that's fine too. If he wants to engage you with a firearm, then you'd better have a plan in place to put him at a severe disadvantage, which I'm sure the OP is already doing. Of course, if he points a gun you're no longer killing to "protect property" you're killing to preserve your life. It's a clean shoot in most zip codes.

Engaging a thief with a firearm escalates the situation significantly. You're bumping the chance that SOMEONE is going to be seriously injured or killed way up. Either it's the BG in which case you're going to spend a lot more than the worth of the stolen property to try to convince 12 strangers not to put you in prison, or it's you and we all know why that's bad. I hate the concept of theivery just as much as anyone else, but I always don't want to shoot anyone. I'm fairly confident I would if my life is in danger, but I'm not going to provoke someone into attacking me so I have an excuse. In this case, all's well that ends well, but I would have handled it differently.

Note that the police didn't show up for 20 minutes, that's plenty of time to do several thousand dollars more damage.

There's a difference in response time between the 911 call that says "Someone tried to break into my home and ran off" and "Someone is breaking into my home right now." The first is a low priority, well behind things that require immediate action, like the second.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Engaging a thief with a firearm escalates the situation significantly. You're bumping the chance that SOMEONE is going to be seriously injured or killed way up. Either it's the BG in which case you're going to spend a lot more than the worth of the stolen property to try to convince 12 strangers not to put you in prison,

I won't face a jury. You're basing your presumption on your zip code.

There's a difference in response time between the 911 call that says "Someone tried to break into my home and ran off" and "Someone is breaking into my home right now." The first is a low priority, well behind things that require immediate action, like the second.

Again, you're basing a presumption on your zip code. Many people don't live in the midst of urban sprawl with a cruiser 5 minutes away.

If I lived in California I'd let them cart away my entire house before drawing a gun. Hell, people have gone on vacation and come home to find squatters living in their house and had to spend thousands of dollars and months of time to evict them from their now looted and destroyed home because California protects criminals. You have no rights (property or otherwise) in California.

However, I don't live in California so I have the freedom to defend my home and property. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out with the intention of killing somebody. I'd prefer they simply run away and stop stealing/destroying my property, and I have both the means and the legal right to force them to do just that.

 

[Yo Mama]

Its his property, his firearm, and in some states lethal force is a go to defend property. Like you said, he is 23. Life is for him to live his own way.

Holier than thou posts help no one. He defended his freedom and liberty from tyrany. He deserves a high five!

I won't hjack thread, but I'm not holier than thou. He did not defend his freedom or liberty from tyrany so come on. Tyrany is Nazi Germany as the 12 million plus who died, not the crack head stealing a personal item from you.

 

[Yo Mama]

bet if a moderator would come on here and say good job, people just like you would follow up with a pat on the back right behind them. We have a word for that where I come from.

As far as the laws go... You are allowed to use Physical force to stop a burglary. If you are armed and the perp pushes the limits that qualify for deadly force then by all means.

Deal with some pill head no good piece of trash thieves like I have in my area and you will be singing the same tune.

1. I don't give a flying _fill in blank_ what a mods opinion on the issue is. This forum however is run by mods who know a bit, and maybe you should listen to them if you won't listen to me.

2. Dude, it's stuff! It's just stuff!!! You're saying you want to shoot someone for pushing the limit? Man, I can't wait to see you on the news.

3. You're right, you're the only one who lives in a neighborhood with gangs and crackheads. Actually, wait, I'm in Phoenix which with all the illegals and druglords is like living at the Hilton. So I never worry about my home, my valuables, my family, etc....

I don't think he shot anyone. Therefor no deadly force was used.

Uhhh, clearly you have a superior intellect.

 

[Sam1911]

He defended his freedom and liberty from tyrany. He deserves a high five!

He ran out of his house, BLIND (both tactically and LITERALLY), into an unknown situation, waving a loaded firearm.

He deserves a swift kick in the butt and a "WAKE UP!" The fact that he's alive to recount the story is due to absolute, unmitigated, sheer dumb LUCK.

This is not a moment for congratulations.

A moment for giving thanks that fools don't always get what they've got coming, perhaps.

 

[KodiakBeer]

A moment for giving thanks that fools don't always get what they've got coming, perhaps.

Great! The OP tells us what happened to him looking for feedback, and the Mod calls him a fool. That's real High Road of you!

 

[Sam1911]

I don't think he shot anyone. Therefor no deadly force was used.

He certainly THREATENED with deadly force, which is an assault charge in most areas. Legally justified to stop a burglary? Probably, depending on the local laws.

I think some people on this forum need to stop trying to be some high and mighty tactical god and come to face with reality.

Now the definition of a "tactical god" is someone who cautions you NOT to resort to violence over "stuff" and absolutely not to expose yourself to needless risk? That's new.

I bet if a moderator would come on here and say good job,

Let's not get into completely unrealistic hypothetical situations, here...

As far as the laws go... You are allowed to use Physical force to stop a burglary. If you are armed and the perp pushes the limits that qualify for deadly force then by all means.

This is the kind of macho horsepucky that is so infuriatingly daft. Just like the old John Wayne quote about how "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on..." -- it is unrealistic and dangerous bravado that causes great harm and no good.

Killing is a VERY bad thing. You DON'T want to do it. You DON'T want someone to "push the limits that qualify..." so you can shoot them. It is life-changing. It is not the power rush than an adolescent mind makes it out to be. Those folks who have killed someone in self-defense nearly universally live with bitter regret -- for their JUSTIFIABLE actions. Bloodlust is either the sign of immaturity or sickness.

 

[Sam1911]

he OP tells us what happened to him looking for feedback, and the Mod calls him a fool. That's real High Road of you!

It was a foolish act.

Is he a fool? I don't know. That depends on the conclusions he makes as he reflects on his actions vis-a-vis the possible outcomes.

If "fool" offends the OP, I am very sorry. Sometimes things need to be said directly.

 

[Sam1911]

One doesn't have to kill to protect property. Engaging a thief with a firearm is not a death sentence, it's a "stop robbing me NOW" sentence. If he runs, he runs. If he drops to the ground and waits for the police, that's fine too. If he wants to engage you with a firearm, then you'd better have a plan in place to put him at a severe disadvantage,

What if he's a smart thief, who's been there and done that?

What if he says, "Yo, dude, there's two of us and one of you, and you are not going to kill someone over a stereo, so go put your little gun away and go back to bed."

You have some other bluff to fall back on? You going to do the "movie" thing and rack the shotgun AGAIN? That might scare 'em.

It's a clean shoot in most zip codes.

Ahh, good. Happiness is a "clean shoot."

 

[Sam1911]

I'd prefer they simply run away and stop stealing/destroying my property, and I have both the means and the legal right to force them to do just that.

Unless you can shoot them for the theft of property, no, you really don't.

You can make threats and give orders. You may certainly be justified in pointing a firearm at them. You could try to make a citizens' arrest. But, unless you're going to KILL them outright, you don't have a lot of recourse if they simply ignore you and call your bluff. If they finish their business, get in their vehicle and leave, what are you going to do -- but stand there in the open like a frustrated goober?

I guess you'll be a good witness, get descriptions of them and their vehicle to give to the police. Which you probably could have done from cover inside the house.

What was the point, again?

 

[Gouranga]

Personally, I would likely confront the thieves as well. I just would not like the threat of having a criminal in that close to my home. That being said, in NC i cannot use lethal force for property crime. Lethal force is simply pointing a loaded weapon at them. I would do two things first.

1. Panic button on home security. The horn in that thing can be heard 4 or 5 blocks away.

2. I would go out the front door which would allow me to confront them with a large brick and concrete porch between us (cover).

If they upped the stakes and pulled a weapon, I would be in excellent position to draw and fire from cover, they would have little to no cover, my security system would be going off, I would already have lots of witnesses around me. I would also bring my dog out with me. If they used lethal force they would be dropped. If they approached intending to square off, they would be hit by OC spray and an 80 lb dog.


Couple thoughts, I am imagining the setup for my home in this. which would give me a good advantage in terms of cover, visibility, and surprise. I also have a wife with a 12 gauge in the home behind me in case they deciding to try to get into the home. I am also assuming I can see the couple of shadows not half a dozen shadows.

It is definitely a risk to leave the home and confront them in any manner. However, IMO, it starts with idiots hitting cars, then they move to out buildings, then homes. If they are stopped cold at the car stage, I will not see them trying to get through to my home a couple months later after they have stripped my cars and outbuildings of anything of value. IMO, if I can confront them (at my own risk), keeping the advantage, and keep them from getting to the next layer of security that is a win for me.

Would I go out the door in plain view, with no cover, with lethal force as my only option, no. You have no advantage in that situation. Personally, for the OP, if you are going to confront them I think you may have been better going out another door and confronting them while keeping an advantage should it have turned into a firefight. if those guys had been carrying, they would likely have shot you right where you stood and if they missed all their rounds went into your house. I think if you are going to confront them you need to keep the advantage overwhelmingly on your side.

We can debate the validity of risking yourself in the confrontation to protect your property, I think there is good value in also considering this option as valid for some and engaging in the better way of doing it.

 

[KodiakBeer]

If "fool" offends the OP, I am very sorry. Sometimes things need to be said directly.

Calling a poster a fool is not what I'd consider High Road, unless the individual is already sinking to name calling, when a response in kind might be indicated.

Unless you can shoot them for the theft of property, no, you really don't.

Only a fool thinks stopping a theft must involve shooting a person.

 

[Sam1911]

Calling a poster a fool is not what I'd consider High Road

I made a general statement that we may be thankful that fools don't always get what they've got coming. I certainly have benefited from such grace a time or two, myself. I'll stand by the statement and be judged on it's merits.

Unless you can shoot them for the theft of property, no, you really don't.

Only a fool thinks stopping a theft must involve shooting a person.

You've offered nothing here besides THREAT of force and USE of force. (I guess we could add, "Goading to create justification for the use of force." Great.)

There are some alternatives, each with their own risks and advantages. Perhaps you could share some to give the OP something useful (aside from a pat on the back) to take away from this conversation.

 

[KodiakBeer]

You've offered nothing here besides THREAT of force and USE of force. (I guess we could add, "Goading to create justification for the use of force." Great.)

I have not advocated deadly force against a thief, unless by force you mean "stop stealing my stuff" or "get off my property". If that's "force" then yeah, I'm advocating it. Otherwise, stop spinning fairy tales and calling people names - my posts are right there for all to read.

I don't want to shoot anyone, ever, under any circumstances. Protecting your family, home and property doesn't necessarily mean shooting some tweaker breaking into your car or carting off your TV, it only means stopping the crime. The perp will be perfectly safe running off the property as fast as his skinny legs can carry him.

 

[Sam1911]

Perhaps you could share some to give the OP something useful (aside from a pat on the back) to take away from this conversation.

Did you skip my question?

I have not advocated deadly force against a thief, unless by force you mean "stop stealing my stuff" or "get off my property". If that's "force" then yeah, I'm advocating it.

That's not FORCE, that's merely an order. As I've pointed out, the thief is under no physical obligation to follow that order unless you sufficiently bluff him and he thinks you will actually shoot.

So what if that doesn't work? If you have something to suggest besides THREAT and FORCE, please suggest it!

 

[Gouranga]

Kodiak, he entered a situation with a drawn firearm. IMO, you do NOT pull your weapon unless you intend to use it. It depends highly on where you live, but here in NC, such an individual would be flirting at the verge of the legal definition of lethal force.

I would submit going out to a scene, with no tactical advantage, armed in a provocative stance is unwise. If you go out that door whipping out your gun, you had best be VERY ready to use it puts that perp to a fight or flight decision. You are banking on flight being his nature. What happens when that guy or guys panic and irrationally decide to rush you?

You have no advantage you cannot clearly see them, they can see you. You have no cover, you only have lethal force as an option. Now you HAVE to employ lethal force to kill both of them. I am of course going to the scenario the OP described with his shotgun in hand. Does your scenario have you going out without the firearm or in a manner that does not compromise strategic advantage?

 

[Sam1911]

doesn't necessarily mean shooting...it only means stopping the crime.

So, if not shooting, then you're counting on harsh language? Threats and commands?

Now you've confronted someone. You've brandished your weapon. They didn't blink. Now what?

You could retreat back to the safety of your home (if the criminals allow it).

You could throw what little tactical advantage you have left to the wind and try to engage them physically to "force" them to leave.

You could get angry and frustrated, and outraged and shoot them anyway. Maybe that's legal in your zip code. Maybe it's moral in your mind. Hope so.

You could count on your appearance to force a violent confrontation. Escalate the situation so you stack the deck in your favor to get a "good shoot." Pretty risky gamble, and you've still killed someone (or died) over "stuff."

What other ways does this play out?

(Yeah, maybe they leave. Or maybe they shoot you. Roll the dice.)

 

[bikerdoc]

BTDT

Dog alerts, and wont stop barking
Motion lights go on

911 called

BG leaves

Didnt have time to grag the shot gun, never mind rack it.

 

[Jon_Snow]

I won't face a jury. You're basing your presumption on your zip code.

Ok, let's suppose that you are completely sure you won't go to trial because you know what's in the heart of hearts of every DA in your county. You've still now put youself in a position where you have a much greater chance of being killed over a stereo.

Again, you're basing a presumption on your zip code. Many people don't live in the midst of urban sprawl with a cruiser 5 minutes away.

I didn't say they would get there within 5 minutes. I'm just saying that there's a difference and the one is not indicative of the other. My car was broken into and it took the cops 2 hours to show up and take my statement. Do I think it would take them 2 hours to respond if I called with a real emergency? No.

If I lived in California I'd let them cart away my entire house before drawing a gun...However, I don't live in California so I have the freedom to defend my home and property. That doesn't mean I'm going to go out with the intention of killing somebody. I'd prefer they simply run away and stop stealing/destroying my property, and I have both the means and the legal right to force them to do just that.

Please stop saying things like this without reading up on it first. California definitely gets a lot of things wrong but this is just blatantly false. California has one of the oldest versions of Castle Doctrine in the US and has specific laws to protect good shoots from civil suits, unlike many states.

 

[soloban]

+1. The sound of a pump shotgun being racked is Universal Criminal Laxative.

 

[WALKERs210]

I didn't say they would get there within 5 minutes. I'm just saying that there's a difference and the one is not indicative of the other. My car was broken into and it took the cops 2 hours to show up and take my statement. Do I think it would take them 2 hours to respond if I called with a real emergency? No

. Wait until your standing on your front porch, phone in hand talking to county sheriff's dispatcher and watch two patrol cars go right past even with you telling the dispatcher to relay to the LEO to simply STOP. The two officers actually instead of stopping and backing up about 20feet went around two or three blocks and still never made it to my drive way. Gives you that nice warm fuzzy feeling about safety and protection don't it.

 

[Big D]

Let me just say, in retrospect, I was wrong in stepping outside my home without being able to fully assess the situation because of my vision being blurry, hell I'd just woken up. In retrospect, I would have done things differently, such as waited for my eyes to adjust, and then approached the would-be thieves from a different location, and possibly detained them. I don't know how yall do things, but in Georgia if you come on someone's property unwelcomed and intent to damage, steal, or anything else on MY PROPERTY, I will not hesistate to use force if necessary to remove said subjects. This has never happened before, and was my first time experiencing something of this nature. I have learned of my mistakes, and I am taking the proper measures to correct them. I will also say, that I did not intend to kill or harm anyone unless I felt that there was enough threat to myself or anyone otherwise that deemed deadly force needed to be implemented. It did not and was not. I am human, and as such I make mistakes, we all do, none of us are perfect. But to tell me that I should sit idly by and watch someone do what they want on my land sends a strong message that acts such as those will not be punished and will be tolerated, and with that in mind will fuel the fire that has already been started. I'm sorry if it offends your sensitive nature, but I am not and will not tolerate it. I choose to defend my home.

 

[Boris bush]

Since some here are doing a lot, oh wait, WAAAAY too much thinking, lets think about this.

The BG is not happy with what the cars have to offer. OP has called the police and the low priority 20 minute wait call turns into a peed off BG that wants more than what little the car has to offer. Hmm, lets see what the fridge has, I am hungry.....

BG goes in the house and finds a homeowner so fear struck to do anything he takes the shotgun from him because the home owner is too afraid to defend himself, his brother or his brothers wife. Kills the hider, the hiders brother then rapes the brothers wife.

If a crime is being commited on my property it will be stopped as soon as possible. The OP has no idea how far the BG is willing to go. How do you guys that say it was bad to defend his property and family, that the BG would be happy with what was in the car?

You DO NOT have the slightest clue what the BG had in mind and neither did the OP. He stopped a crime and who knows, just maybe saved a few lives that night. Maybe they called it a night after that. Maybe they had a list of crimes to commit. Maybe someone would have died, been raped, kidnapped or all of that. You have no clue.

Start thinking about the crimes he STOPPED. The guy has earned a pat on the back. Start thinking of the good he did!!!!! Stop acting like the anti gun owning, criminals rights first people that dont even want YOU to own a firearm for any reason. Not just to defend life and liberty.

For the person that said 12 million people being killed is tyrany and a crime being commited against one person is not. Then you have not been a victim of a crime. Tyrany comes in many forms. Twelve million people do not need to die before something becomes tyrany....

 

[9mmepiphany]

Big D - I'm glad everything worked out in that no one got hurt. It is also good to see that you have been able to take a step back and see your mistakes.

Lights and a dog are excellent deterrents and will run off the casual theft. Anyone who would stay around past that would likely call your bluff should you threaten the use of force without standing. I would seriously recommend you become familiar with your local laws as to when you would be justified in using force to "remove said subjects".

Before running outside, even with a gun, you need to ask yourself:
1. are there more people outside than I can see
2. is it worth endangering my family, should I be put out of action
3. what can I do if they decide not to obey my commands...remember that the less distance there is between you and them, that the smaller your advantage is and the greater the danger to you?