"Can I look in the vehicle?" wife & kids present

[rangermonroe]

This is why it's dangerous for a layperson to attempt to read caselaw.

Then it is gonna suck when I am on a jury.

I am going to use common sense, common reading of law (as understood my me... the legal imbecile, and my actual experience of witnessing the police perjure themselves under oath.

 

[PcMakr]

one important thing that I have not seen anybody mention, aside from using a recorder to make a copy of the conversation, is to write down everything that you or the LEO says, weather, location, his attitude, name, badge no., car no., and anything else that you can think of. Do this as soon as possible if the stop doesn't end up with just a ticket. The officers are taught to 'back up' their tickets, where they document any pertinent info. about each stop on the back of their tickets. This helps give them reminders of anything unusual about a stop in case it goes to court. The civilian needs to do the same thing if there is anything unusual about the stop that you feel may help you if you go to court. It can be very hard to remember details 6 months later in a courtroom.

 

[precisionshootist]

One idea I've been tossing about in my head for encounters with Law enforcement is to simply inform the officer that this conversation may be recorded. This is the message you here when you call various call centers. This conversation MAY be recorded. Does not mean it is recorded but it might be and you are put on notice. Then don't answer any questions after that.

Think about that from the officers stand point, a video/audio camera may be running or it may not. With today's technology a recording device could be anywhere. The worst enemy to abusive law enforcement is a recording device.

It's unfortunate that the power structure is such that we as law abiding citizens are forced to think about how to avoid getting railroaded by law enforcement in our day to day lives.

 

[mindwip]

Heres my answer.

One night about 2 am, a friend a girl got in a car accident bent one wheel, i drove over with one of my friends to help out. We were able to move the car so it was parked legally but it could not be driven forward only reverse. While we were doing this, 2 cops on foot came at us from 50yrds aways as soon as they saw we saw them, a helicopter shined its light on use and 3 cop cars came speeding around the conner and stopped in front of use. Everyone from her car and mine was out side my car looking at the cops like "what the hell". Cop comes up to me (and no one else) and ask whats going on i ask same question. Cop said some one called in about us drinking, which was funny sense not one of us had so much a water bottle. He ask if everything is alright and in the same sentence ask if he can search my trunk. Just before the cops came i was putting my jack "the car type" back in my trunk. I tell him that everything thing is fine and that NO he may not look into my trunk. At the point my keys were on my trunk lid (were he told me to put them earlier) and his hand was already going for them, gives me a pissed off look, and said "what". I told him that he may not look in my trunk or car.

After some threats, like dogs and if you say no then you are hiding stuff, and threated putting a friend in jail because he was out with us past 10, even thou it was legal due to the fact he was going from house to house when the car was hit. Running my driver id and searching my body, on the out side, Being called names by the officer. We were "let go". Sense everyone could not fit in my car i had to leave some there. While i was gone the cops kept asking if my friends needed a taxi and making fun of them, one friend made a comment about them being A@#$% and they left.

So always stand up for your self in CA, If you say you have a weapon in your car a cop can search it for his safety.

When a cop asks, Do you have any weapons or drugs in your car, say you have nothing illegal. Period followed by I will not give consent to search any of my self or property.

Some cops could care less if you have guns others might not know the law and your in jail. Some out right lie to you, like they did that one night, and are mean, not a good way to let the stupid hard headed victim help the cops.

 

[pittspilot]

I don't think I said that. I think I told him he was missing the point of the case, the new or clarified rule of law, and was instead looking at who won the application of the facts.

I think you told him that he would be unable to understand a USSC decision by reading that decision without specialized legal knowledge. You do have a point about that. But isn't it a sad commentary when there is so little agreement about something as easy to understand as what forms the proper basis for a vehicle search?

Not really. The black letter crim procedure/constitutional law isn't that complicated. That link gave some pretty good nutshell black letter law material. (There is a button somewhere that will allow you to leaf forward and backward through the chapters.) Anyone can understand the basics. I gave up long ago caring about the reasoning and whether or not it's "right" or "wrong." My opinion (or yours) of how the Bill of Rights and Constitution SHOULD be interpreted does not count for much.

I somewhat disagree. Certainly, with enough effort someone can understand the basics, but I think it is one of those pieces of knowledge that would require constant refreshment, not to mention keeping up on changes to the law, in order to have a practical level of knowledge. I have twice taken on the knowledge, once in law school, once in the bar, and quite honestly, I don't remember the cases and the law on this point very well at all.

As far as the minutae, it gets complicated quickly.

I hate to see jailhouse lawyers, even if well-meaning, getting other people in trouble with advise like "lock the doors and demand a search warrant.

Yeah, locking the doors and demanding a search warrant seemed like a bad idea to me as well. In the end, dealing with a request for a search is going to be very situational. People should read the situation and act reasonably is my thought.

 

[Cacique500]

(2) If the initial pat-down – with no further touching – provides the officer with probable cause for believing that an object felt is contraband or other criminal evidence subject to seizure, he may pull out the object without a warrant, as part of the plain-touch doctrine.

So if I inform the officer that I am legally CCW'ing would he be able to disarm me under Terry and be able to search the car for other "weapons"?

 

[budney]

Yeah, locking the doors and demanding a search warrant seemed like a bad idea to me as well.

Note: I'm the one who said to lock the door. I said nothing about a search warrant; that was someone else. The reason for locking the car is that otherwise nothing stops the officer from entering the vehicle and claiming the door was left open or in some other way attempting to argue that consent was given to search. It's hard to make such claims if the driver was forced to relinquish his keys before the car could be opened.

The ACLU and several other sites agree with me.

--Len.

 

[TCB in TN]

So if I inform the officer that I am legally CCW'ing would he be able to disarm me under Terry and be able to search the car for other "weapons"?

I have a hard time understanding how obeying the law (where applicable) and informing of your legal carry, could be used to justify searching for other weapons. It just don't make sense.

 

[jselvy]

Don't have to make sense its the law.

Jefferson

 

[Torque]

You guys all need to know one thing:

The officer is going to do what ever he wants.

Once you understand this simple statement you will understand how our system works. They can detain anyone they want, warrant or not, for up to 24 hrs in most states. Then more than likely they will have a dog alert to the presence of "something" in your vehicle and that will provide 'probable cause' at which point they will search your vehicle.

No matter what you do or say, you are going to get violated either way.

 

[Sage of Seattle]

So if I inform the officer that I am legally CCW'ing would he be able to disarm me under Terry and be able to search the car for other "weapons"?

The cops will probably all say yes. My reading of what has been posted in this thread tells me no, unless you are somehow seen as a danger to the officer. Legally carrying a firearm isn't enough, absent of other factors, that you pose a danger. But, since IANAL, it's just my two cents.

However, I would base my own decisions on these thoughts if I were put in a position of having an officer wishing to do a Terry frisk on me.

 

[thexrayboy]

The officer is going to do what ever he wants.

Precisely. However if the officer is intelligent and you are adamant about not giving up your rights, thereby demonstrating you have a basic knowledge that you do indeed have rights he may rethink his actions. Some will decide it is not worth the risk to violate your rights. Others will not care believing they can whitewash over any criminal acts they commit under color of authority....and they may be correct in that assumption.

However when you refuse to state your rights and ask that they be respected you have ceded all power and authority to the officer and he may then do what he wants. You must then basically roll the dice and hope he is nice, honest and trustworthy. If he is not, by not specifically demanding he respect your rights, opened Pandoras box to allow said officer to do as he wishes.

You have nothing to gain by giving up your rights. You have nothing to lose by exerting them.

 

[Outlaws]

However when you refuse to state your rights and ask that they be respected you have ceded all power and authority to the officer and he may then do what he wants. You must then basically roll the dice and hope he is nice, honest and trustworthy. If he is not, by not specifically demanding he respect your rights, opened Pandoras box to allow said officer to do as he wishes.

You have nothing to gain by giving up your rights. You have nothing to lose by exerting them.

Exactly. Don't just roll over and die like a pathetic fool.

 

[The Amigo]

You have nothing to gain by giving up your rights.

I must disagree with this one, First of all a Law enforcement officer has no idea who he is dealing when he is pulling someone over weather a law abiding citizen of a convicted killer. An LEO needs to establish if your a good guy or a dirt bag in very little time. Who am I? A law abiding citizen. Whats the quickest way of proving it showing him I have nothing to hide.

Usually people that give the LEO a hard time are hiding something that's the mentality weather you like it or not, criminals usually don't like to get caught.

I believe those 3 hours I will be spending curbside waiting for a warrant or the K9 unit to search my car because I decided to defend my right might be used to catch some other dirt bag that is inclined to do more damage to society with no regard (dope dealers, rapists, robbers ext..) plus being cooperative usually makes the process a lot faster. So I do consider in this case there is something for me to gain by giving up my rights for maybe 5-10 minutes. I will openly show him I have nothing to hide and consent to anything. Most LEOs will put you back on the road in no time once they realized you are not what they are looking for.

My advice if you get the do you have any weapons in your vehicle question is answer= Sir I have Legal weapons in X area at this time For which I have a legal permit would you like to see my permit/license ext... This response usually put an LEO at ease VS yes sir I have some rifles in the back, while hes trying to figure out if you're the last guy that robbed that 7 eleven a week ago. A little cooperation makes it easier on me and him so why not. If you want to defend your right and go the other way by all means its your right. But I have better things to do that to wait for a warrant or FIDO the doper dog and im sure that LEO has more important thing to do too. My 2 C

 

[ProficientRifleman]

PcMakr, this is not a slap at you, but something to keep in mind. If we ALL ever want to get away from the us vs. them mentality...

The civilian needs to do the same thing if there is anything unusual about the stop that you feel may help you if you go to court.

Just a reminder folks: Cops ARE Civilians!

 

[jselvy]

Needless to say Amigo that there are fundamental differences in the way we view our rights. The cop is sworn to uphold my rights, if he does not do so for any reason then he is forsworn and in breach of the public trust.
I prefer to stand on my rights. I am willing to wait hours and hours on the side of the road in order to do so. If the cop wastes enough time in this way maybe one of his higher ups will take note and do something about it.

As far as the Us vs. Them attitude I reply with "Are Weems and Abbate still free?"

Jefferson

 

[Sage of Seattle]

First of all a Law enforcement officer has no idea who he is dealing when he is pulling someone over weather a law abiding citizen of a convicted killer.

So? That LEO needs to treat both equally professionally with "innocent until proven guilty" in the forefront of his mind.

An LEO needs to establish if your a good guy or a dirt bag in very little time.

No, he doesn't. My status as a good guy or dirt bag has no bearing of whether or not I may have committed a crime, or am in the process of committing one.

Usually people that give the LEO a hard time are hiding something

So when you play baseball, do you tell the ref that you don't want to give the other team a hard time and so therefore they can ignore the rules? Cops need to follow the rules. I don't see when I say "I don't give permission to search" as giving anyone a hard time.

I believe those 3 hours I will be spending curbside waiting for a warrant or the K9 unit to search my car because I decided to defend my right might be used to catch some other dirt bag

The courts have ruled that cops still need articulable suspicion or probable cause to search and the mere assertion of your rights cannot be used as either of those.

 

[gtd]

It's just human nature to want to reply -- to want to have a discussion. I've done it, and I'm a criminal defense lawyer.

But remember what they say on TV, and it's true in real life: "Anything you say can and will be used against you."

We've sees many cases where the defendants just blabbed away. "Sure, search my car." The cops then found meth or pot or whatever, and yes the defendant did, in fact, know it was there.

It's human nature, but it's not mandatory. You can say no, and most officers will respect that if you are polite.

 

[Outlaws]

I must disagree with this one, First of all a Law enforcement officer has no idea who he is dealing when he is pulling someone over weather a law abiding citizen of a convicted killer. An LEO needs to establish if your a good guy or a dirt bag in very little time. Who am I? A law abiding citizen. Whats the quickest way of proving it showing him I have nothing to hide.

They should have thought about that before becoming a LEO. Life is not more valuable than this country being free.

 

[budney]

Whats the quickest way of proving it showing him I have nothing to hide.

There are several problems with that statement.

On the highest level of principle, we should not choose to behave as slaves even if it does make our lives easier. Generally, slaves do have it easier. As long as they're obedient to their masters, their masters will take care of everything else.

On a practical level, your statement assumes that the officer himself is an honorable man. Not all are. If you're dealing with a dishonest one, "showing him you have nothing to hide" will do you no good at all. He may plant evidence on you; he may find obscure violations of codes you never heard of; he may hassle you just for fun.

Also on a practical level, there are more and more mala prohibita out there. You may not have weed in your car, but who knows what rule you might be breaking, accidentally or intentionally? It isn't legal to obstruct "justice," but it's legal to stick to your rights, which makes it that much harder to enforce bad laws.

If you believe in freedom, you should consider putting up with inconvenience in order to make the authorities earn their pay by doing things by the book.

--Len.

 

[thexrayboy]

Whats the quickest way of proving it showing him I have nothing to hide.

This country was founded on a belief system. One of those beliefs is that citizens do not have to prove anything....ANYTHING! to the governent or its officers. It is the burden of those officers and the government to prove you are in the wrong and those same founding fathers wrote very specific provisions in the Constitution to insure that your rights were not violated by said officers and government while they are attempting to deprive you of your freedom. The problem is the inmates overran the asylum and now those
that were expected to be subservient to the Constitution are allowed to interpret it and ignore it at will.

 

[precisionshootist]

I must disagree with this one, First of all a Law enforcement officer has no idea who he is dealing when he is pulling someone over weather a law abiding citizen of a convicted killer. An LEO needs to establish if your a good guy or a dirt bag in very little time. Who am I? A law abiding citizen. Whats the quickest way of proving it showing him I have nothing to hide.

In times long past I would agree with your strategy but not anymore.

You are right, if a cop pulls me over he has no idea who I am but at the same time I don't know the cop. He could be like many honest LEO's that I know personaly or he could be Mike Nifong with a gun! Unforutunately the chances of encountering the latter have become FAR to great.


This is America, it has already been established that you are a good guy until proven otherwise in a court of law.

 

[Orthonym]

Policemen have no rights

...as policemen. As human beings, they have the same rights we all share.
As policemen, they have powers, which are delegated to them by us, and (used-to-be) strictly limited and well-defined.

 

[mmike87]

"What becomes really twisted is that your continued refusal to allow the search can be used as probable cause to obtain a warrant to do the search. You're kinda screwed either way."
Sorry but refusing to allow a search is'nt "probable cause" in ANY state. Very few LEOs will wait for a judge to issue a warrant just for a "fishing trip".

If they had probable cause, they wouldn't need the warrant, anyway. Thus the above should never happen. If they don't have PC then they shiouldn't be able to get a warrant.

Never, never, never let them search your car. Why would you? There is NOTHING in it for you and only benefits THEM.

Trust me, unless you can name all the millions of laws in this country, you cannot be certain you are not breaking at least one of them.

Of course if you say NO they can just get the "drug dogs" and if they bark then they immediately have PC anyway. But don't make it easy.

 

[The Amigo]

They should have thought about that before becoming a LEO. Life is not more valuable than this country being free.

So you are saying cops deserve to die due to their chosen career path? I believe in the value of a free country but I believe in those same officers have families like I do and if we can have freedom yet no dead people wouldn't that sound better?

If you believe in freedom, you should consider putting up with inconvenience in order to make the authorities earn their pay by doing things by the book.

Friends I do believe in freedom democracy and the defense of this country till the last drop of blood but I do Know there are too many evil spirited persons out there in a daily basis. So I don't judge an officer if he has distrust on those first 5 minutes of our conversation because he is following a natural instinct just as I would do if someone I don't know comes knocking on my door late at night.

I just believe America would be more crime free if we as citizens contribute to to keep the streets clean, by being coopearational with the boys in blue and not playing hardball with LE authorities just seems counterproductive to what the goal shall be =getting rid of unlawful people who don't care about society and its rules.

Ive seen many threads of speaking on how one shall be defensive against LEO,s about how they could plant something in our car that wasn't there, about police brutality, I've seen them all. Its this same mentality that has driven America to close its doors and windows every time a crime is committed and out of 20 witnesses none come forward because of that wrongfully implanted brain chip "The police will only get me in trouble".

We hire the police to keep the streets safe yet we give them a hard time when they are trying to do it? How will this help.

I'm willing to give up those 5 minutes so that officer can go on and and catch the real bad guy. To me sometimes giving up your rights for 5 minutes is not an unpatriotic because I failed to guard my right, but an act of unselfishness by thinking of others.

This is the same as a soldier giving up his right to live, to have a family and enjoy life while dying to defend his county are we to call him a slave too?

I think not. I'm sorry but Its time we start thinking in the consequences of what we do will have an implication on others. Its time people stop thinking in me me and only me and start doing the right thing in order to have what we all strive for a better place to live. Sorry for the long post