"Can I look in the vehicle?" wife & kids present

[budney]

So you are saying cops deserve to die due to their chosen career path?

Are you saying that their only two choices are unconstitutional searches or death? I dispute that.

We hire the police to keep the streets safe yet we give them a hard time when they are trying to do it? How will this help.

This is a case in which the servant poses a serious danger of becoming the master. Law enforcement, like government itself (and, of course, fire), is a dangerous servant and a terrible master. It must be controlled.

This is the same as a soldier giving up his right to live, to have a family and enjoy life while dying to defend his county are we to call him a slave too?

Depends. A conscript certainly is a slave: he was taken against his will and forced to labor for his master. He's much worse off than a house-slave, say, because instead of polishing silver he's sent off to be cannon fodder. You can argue that the draft is a necessary evil--and you might even be right--but we should still call it what it is. It's slavery.

--Len.

 

[mmike87]

Amigo - I must repectively disagree with nealy all your points.

It's not about "giving the officer a hard time" ... it's about not offering yourself up when you don't have to.

The problem is that officers want to search your vehicle to look for anything against the law. ANYTHING. Since there are MILLIONS of laws on the books these days, and I certainly cannot name them all, I cannot be sure if I am breaking any or not.

Thus, I am NOT going to tell anyone "Hey, go ahead and try and find something to arrest me for." Sorry, ain't going to happen. Why should I? Why would I? Who in their right mind would?

If I am speeding, give me a ticket. Otherwise, unless you see or smell something illegal then leave me the hell alone.

If the officer can articulate probable cause to pull my family and I out of our car on the side of the interstate in the middle of the night, then so be it. But why would I subject myself to the inconvenience, humiliation, and degradation of such a roadside fishing expedition just so I can prove to a total stranger that I have done nothing wrong?

Your argument that we need to stop thinking of ourselves and do "the right thing" to make the world a "better place" ... well, I think many around here find those words in themselves VERY disturbing. 'Don't worry sir, it's your YOUR safety. It's for YOUR own good. Trust us! We're your friends!"

Well, I willd decide what's for my "own good", thank you very much. Until then, stay the hell out of my car, my house, and my life until I actually DO something wrong.

 

[Deanimator]

They should have thought about that before becoming a LEO. Life is not more valuable than this country being free.

So you are saying cops deserve to die due to their chosen career path?

That about says it. Unlike in Egypt, we don't conscript policemen.

Anyone in this country who becomes a policeman does so by choice. If someone who chooses to become a policeman doesn't think that he can safely do his job and respect the US Constitution and the laws of this nation, he needs to find employment suitable to his abilities. I suggest telemarketing.

 

[Deanimator]

Friends I do believe in freedom democracy and the defense of this country till the last drop of blood but I do Know there are too many evil spirited persons out there in a daily basis. So I don't judge an officer if he has distrust on those first 5 minutes of our conversation because he is following a natural instinct just as I would do if someone I don't know comes knocking on my door late at night.

If he doesn't trust me, why should I trust him? Does the name "Bobby Cutts" ring a bell? How about "Justin Volpe"?

Michael Pleasance trusted Officer Alvin Weems of the Chicago Police Department. He's DEAD.

I just believe America would be more crime free if we as citizens contribute to to keep the streets clean, by being coopearational with the boys in blue and not playing hardball with LE authorities just seems counterproductive to what the goal shall be =getting rid of unlawful people who don't care about society and its rules.

I GUARANTEE that America would be more "crime free" if we instituted a system of internal passports and tied people to their city of employment as Stalin did in the Soviet Union in the 1930s. If nothing else, serial murderers would simply disappear as they could not operate freely any longer. How about it?

The police are playing "hardball" with US. We would simply be fools not to return the favor. A bully never straightens up when he gets his way.

Ive seen many threads of speaking on how one shall be defensive against LEO,s about how they could plant something in our car that wasn't there, about police brutality, I've seen them all. Its this same mentality that has driven America to close its doors and windows every time a crime is committed and out of 20 witnesses none come forward because of that wrongfully implanted brain chip "The police will only get me in trouble".

So, it's that mentality, NOT the behavior of the police?

It wasn't the public's mentality which lied to obtain a search warrant, murdered an old woman, then planted drugs to cover up the killing. It was members of the Atlanta Police Department.

It wasn't the public's mentality which killed Michael Pleasance. It was the revolver of Officer Alvin Weems, which he placed to Pleasance's head, and whose trigger he pulled, blowing his brains out.

It wasn't the public's mentality which sodomized Abner Louima. It was a plunger handle in the hands of Officer Justin Volpe.

It wasn't the public's mentality which savagely beat and stomped Chicago barmaid Karolina Obrycka. It was the fists and feet of Officer Anthony Abbate, who weighed more than 100lbs. than she did.

We hire the police to keep the streets safe yet we give them a hard time when they are trying to do it? How will this help.

So, how "safe" do you think Karolina Obrycka, Michael Pleasance and Jessie Davis feel? Unfortunately, unless you know how to conduct a seance, you can only ask one of them.

I'm willing to give up those 5 minutes so that officer can go on and and catch the real bad guy. To me sometimes giving up your rights for 5 minutes is not an unpatriotic because I failed to guard my right, but an act of unselfishness by thinking of others.

Were Michael Pleasance, Amadou Diallo, Patrick Dorismond, Kathryn Johnston, and Jessie Davis the "real bad guys"?

 

[JWarren]

Amigo, I have to disagree with you as well.


Repeatedly, we see people comment that LEO's are people just like everyone else. We see people say that they have "bad apples" just like anywhere else. We have people say that they make mistakes just like anyone else.

I agree with those people.

So, we have an assertion that LE agencies are microchasms of society in itself-- with varying degrees of character, intelligence, and ethics.

Fine. That is MORE of a reason to be congnizant of our rights and defend them.

Deanimator made excellent points regarding some of the 'bad apples" of our LE agencies. Some find it easy to be "above the law." Some may feel pressure to get the numbers needed for superiors. How many of us have worked in a job where benchmarks were established? How many of us knew that we needed to stand out if we wanted a promotion? You think that job is no different?

If so, I wouldn't see 4 highway patrols on my 15 mile drive from my office to my home EVERY DAY when it starts getting to the end of the month and quotos obviously haven't been met. I'd think this were coincidence if I saw ANY of those units on the same highway at the first or middle of the month. This is an observation I'd noticed for YEARS.

What about the highway patrol that begins to pull over a pretty woman repeated just so he can pressure her for a date? Even something as mundane as hormones can be an excuse to abuse power. I had to make a written complaint to the head of the Troop in my area because of this very thing with an officer pulling my wife over for an opportunity to flirt. How easy would it have been for him to plant drugs in her car and then suggest ways to make charges "go away?" I'm sure I know the ways he would suggest. But I am supposed to trust this guy? Right?


No offense to you, but if your attitude is the prevailent one in Puerto Rico, I sincerly hope that statehood isn't in PR's future. We have our work cut out for us dealing with the states we already have that have forgotten what the Bill of Rights means.



-- John

 

[oobray]

Police, as are military personell; are supposed to be here to defend the general public and protect thier rights and freedoms. Yes, the police are a necessary evil. Thier job is to find those people committing crimes. That doesn't mean that I must help them find evidence against me.

I think that the government has created a public mentality that freedoms must be sacrificed in order for security. Which, as we all have heard the words of Ben Franklin (actually it wasn't him personally) that says "Anyone who gives up essential freedoms for temporary security deserves neither freedom nor security".
What the gov will do is keep telling people "If you don't have anything to hid, just let us search, it will be easier on everyone". Which really means, "the government is looking out for you, just give in to whatever we say and you will be better off". Which, as the poster who talked about his run in with LEO in his RV showed us. Even if you're innoccent, that doesn't mean that the LEO will see it that way.

Our constitution was designed for a reason! If we let the gov take an inch, they will take 10 miles!

 

[jcoiii]

you won't offend me nor make me any more suspicious if you refuse consent to search.

 

[The Amigo]

No offense to you, but if your attitude is the prevailent one in Puerto Rico, I sincerly hope that statehood isn't in PR's future. We have our work cut out for us dealing with the states we already have that have forgotten what the Bill of Rights means.

No offense taken my friend, but may I suggest that you discover the many good things Puerto Rican Citizens have done to defend America and the freedom you have without the right to even vote for the president, before you make any assumptions on the subject.

I didn't mean to light a fuse here. Its just that it seems 5 out of 4 threads here lately seem to always go toward LE bashing and I'm quite tired of it. Not all LEO,s are bad people so I feel stereotyping all LE based on some bad apples is wrong. However I respect all your opinions

 

[JWarren]

No offense taken my friend, but may I suggest that you discover the many good things Puerto Rican Citizens have done to defend America and the freedom you have without the right to even vote for the president, before you make any assumptions on the subject.

Glad you didn't take offense.

Whether PR has defended America or not isn't the issue (and I do know that they/you have). I am not making any assumptions.

The issue of PR is a serious side-track of the topic, so I'll not get into it. For the record, I am not asserting one way or the other a position on PR. I was discussing an attitude.

Frankly, I don't care for the representation constituants of MANY states recieve from their officials- and that was the crux of my comment. I am certain many Califorinians (among others) in this forum would agree with this assessment.

Its just that it seems 5 out of 4 threads here lately seem to always go toward LE bashing and I'm quite tired of it. Not all LEO,s are bad people so I feel stereotyping all LE based on some bad apples is wrong. However I respect all your opinions

You'll, indeed, see those often. I need to point out that people are far more likely to remember and comment on the bad rather than the good.

I've been critical of some LEO's on this board in the past, and I probably will be again in the future. Like many here, I have had enough experiences to justify being skeptical. I won't get into it here, but I've seen and heard enough from "the horse's mouth" to watch my back. This includes my wife's grandfather who was police chief for 30 years.

And no, I have NOTHING to hide, am a professional and fit the "mold" of a responsible and "acceptable" citizen.

I also have had good experiences, and I have friends that are LEOs.

That doesn't change my need to be on guard of ANYONE I don't know.


So, that's just me.



-- John

 

[Deanimator]

Not all LEO,s are bad people

It doesn't matter if 99/100 are good people so long as that 100th is running the show.

But of course we know that the ratio is far more than that, especially in some places.

The Police Superintendent in Chicago showed preferential treatment to a murderer, THEN promoted him.

Rank and file Chicago police officers and their local commander showed preferential treatment to a cowardly thug who beat a woman he outweighed by 100lb.s. Because he was a cop, they tried to protect him from the media. The first time he was arrested, he wasn't even cuffed.

Another Chicago police officer, involived in a savage beating in a bar, used his badge to wave off other police summoned by patrons at that bar.

The reaction by rank and file Chicago police to these and a variety of other acts of misconduct? Condemnation not of the misconduct, but of the media showing the video of the beating of the woman, and complaints that the filthy coward who beat her is not being treated "fairly".

In Chicago at least, the "good cops" seem to be keeping a VERY low profile...

 

[HerrWolfe]

Must disagree on this one. Making searches more difficult makes it more difficult to prevent, stop and solve crimes. Prevention of searches is on the side of crooks [not withstanding a constitutional right]. If asked I would agree to a search; the LEO has nothing to gain from planting evidence in my car/truck and everything to loose. Would only want the LEO to state why a search is requested, i.e. recent burgulary and perp's cars matches mine or a kidnapping just occured in area or whatever. If folks who had nothing to hide, agreed to seaches, those who did not agree would quickly be identified for high probability of contraband. The police work for me, and for you; we have changed from a "we" (the community and the police) to a "them and us", and it benefits the crooks. I want to return to the we (the community, the LEO and me) and the "them" is now only the crooks.

 

[budney]

Must disagree on this one. Making searches more difficult makes it more difficult to prevent, stop and solve crimes. Prevention of searches is on the side of crooks [not withstanding a constitutional right]...

 

[Deanimator]

The police work for me, and for you

When Chicago Police officer Alvin Weems blew an unarmed man's brains out, for whom was he working? Michael Pleasance, whom he shot, by his OWN admission, unjustifiably?

When Chicago Police officer Anthony Abbate savagely beat barmaid Karolina Obrycka, whom he outweighed by 100lb.s, for whom was he working? Ms. Obrycka?

When New York City Police officer Justin Volpe sexually assaulted Abner Louima, for whom was he working? Mr. Louima?

I've never done any of these sorts of things to anyone for whom I worked...

 

[REOIV]

Must disagree on this one. Making searches more difficult makes it more difficult to prevent, stop and solve crimes. Prevention of searches is on the side of crooks [not withstanding a constitutional right]. If asked I would agree to a search; the LEO has nothing to gain from planting evidence in my car/truck and everything to loose. Would only want the LEO to state why a search is requested, i.e. recent burgulary and perp's cars matches mine or a kidnapping just occured in area or whatever. If folks who had nothing to hide, agreed to seaches, those who did not agree would quickly be identified for high probability of contraband. The police work for me, and for you; we have changed from a "we" (the community and the police) to a "them and us", and it benefits the crooks. I want to return to the we (the community, the LEO and me) and the "them" is now only the crooks.

:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:

Hrmmm let me make a few quick edits to this ....

Must disagree on this one. Making [strike]searches more[/strike] owning firearms less difficult makes it more difficult to prevent, stop and solve crimes. [strike]Prevention of searches[/strike] Gun ownership is on the side of crooks [not withstanding a constitutional right]. If asked I would agree to give up a basic right [strike]to a search[/strike]; the LEO has nothing to gain from me owning a gun [strike]planting evidence in my car/truck[/strike] and everything to loose.

Would only want the LEO to [strike]state why a search is requested[/strike] to own firearms, i.e. [strike]recent burgulary and perp's cars matches mine or a kidnapping just occured in area [/strike] it is part of their job they need them more than we do or whatever.

If folks who had nothing to hide, agreed to giving up a constitutional right like owning firearms [strike] seaches[/strike] , those who did not agree would quickly be identified for high probability of contraband. The police work for me, and for you; we have changed from a "we" (the community and the police) to a "them and us", and it benefits the crooks. I want to return to the we (the community, the LEO and me) and the "them" is now only the crooks.

Yeah giving up basic Bill of Rights protections sounds like such a good idea when you put it that way....

 

[LT1coupe]

Quote:
I used to believe in consenting & taught my boys that way. A few years back my youngest was pulled over & consented to a search. The DPS officer went through everything in his car, page by page for over an hour. That changed my opinion & my advice.

I suspect something more was at work. Maybe your son was an a-hole or particularly suspicious or maybe the cop was just an a-hole.

Actually my son had let his hair & facial hair grow out just prior to going into the Nuke program, so he & his best bud were a little scruffy at the time.
I'll guarantee he was not being "cute", he's smarter than that. No matter, it's not likely to happen again.

 

[elkhuntingfool]

Where do you guys live???

Holy cow. I've been pulled over many many many many times and have never ONCE been asked if an LEO can search my car. Are you guys paranoid? In my stupid years (teen ager) I've driven with pot and beer in the car and never once did a cop have any reason to search my car - thank the lord!

I've been pulled over while carrying - told the LEO where my hand gun was located - on me. He asked if it was hot - I replied, yes. I then asked him what he would like me to do. He asked me to keep my hands on the wheel while he ran my license. Which I did. He was very nice and he sent me on my way.

I've been driving for 25 years in Utah no less

 

[RoadkingLarry]

I didn't mean to light a fuse here. Its just that it seems 5 out of 4 threads here lately seem to always go toward LE bashing and I'm quite tired of it. Not all LEO,s are bad people so I feel stereotyping all LE based on some bad apples is wrong. However I respect all your opinions

Of course all LEOs are not bad people or bad cops. However, ANY LEO that knowingly tolerates, looks the other way, ignores or in anyway enables a "bad cop" to continue in a position of authority and public trust is just as dirty as what is being allowed.

 

[SomeDay]

One time at the airport I was "randomly" stopped at a checkpoint. It was night time, raining, and I had all five of my kids in the mini van - three were sick, and the baby was only a couple of months old. The officer stopped me and immediately grabbed the handle of my door to open it. I rolled down the window about an inch - just enough to talk. He told me to open the door and have everyone step out of the van so he could search it. I reminded him that it was raining and told him that I had three sick kids and an infant on board and that I would not consent to a search. He cocked his head and looked at me funny. I said the best I would do is let him look in the windows of the van as I drove by. He said fine - end of story.

 

[REOIV]

The LE bashing happens for a number of reasons.

1. They enforce the law even the stupid ones. Cases in point drinking laws. You're damned if you walk in public (public intox) your damned if you drive (DUI) and your damned if you just sleep it off in your car or in the street. You have to get a taxi or have someone drive you home. In some states they are allowed to have sobriety road blocks which are a blatant abuse of the the 4th amendment. Its like forcing everyone in town to get fingerprinted to prove they aren't murderers.

Also police have become traffic enforcers which for the most part is a racket for towns to pad their budgets with money from tickets. Most everyone will experience a speed trap and know how it feels to get shaken down by the cops for 75 to a 100 dollar ticket because it dropped from 65 to 45 in the blink of an eye and they just happen to be there waiting at the bottom of the hill or behind the bend. The more money the small town brings in the more money that can goto the police dept. Many states have had to really crack down on speed trap towns where well over 90% of the town's operating income is from tickets.

2. They have power the average person doesn't and it is debatable if they should warrant some of those privileges. Already they are nobility in that killing a cop is an instant death sentence where as killing a homeless person or old lady isn't. Even killing a police dog is a death sentence...

When on the stand a police officer's word is pretty much hard to contest. Judges side with them, and so do juries. He said she said doesn't happen when dealing with police. The law sides with the officer most of the time.

Law enforcement gets to have all the cool toys and weapons. Most everyone on this board would love for the NFA registry to be opened again to get new civie machine guns on the books let alone doing away with the machine gun laws altogether. In some small towns all it takes to be an officer is a 6 week course and some times it just takes knowing the right guy and they get to have sawed of shotguns etc. People are left wondering why a member of law enforcement is some how 'more' trustworthy than a citizen in good standing.

Its hard to say they are just like me when their life, their word and their rights are 'legally' worth more.

But again being an officer has some hidden perks that personally I think they deserve. Show up at restaurants in uniform and they will usually give you a discount, free drinks or cookies. I know I always gave the cops and firefighters free stuff/large discounts when I worked fast food in high school & college.

3. The only times a person normally interacts with law enforcement is when something has gone wrong in their life OR they have done something wrong. Seeing a police officer is almost never a good thing except when you want them to ticket someone, help out at an accident or break up a party or fight etc.

And in the cases above those people the officer is dealing with won't have a good experience with the officer even if the guy kissed their shoes and bought them a drink.

And lets not forget the times where the officer has to deal with scraping up dad or mom or Jimmy or Susie off the road. And telling the family. Officers portent bad things.

4. A good experience with a police officer isn't memorable. A bad one will last a lifetime. Abuse of power creates mistrust. And just one bad egg sours not only the person involved but their family, friends and children. It is a basic point of business. For each good thing you do you earn 1 extra customer. For each bad thing you lose 5. The key here is to keep the good more than the bad.

5. Growing up now police officers aren't the guys your are taught to love and want to protect you. Students routinely have to waive their rights around them to goto school. Everything from bag searches, drug dogs sniffing lockers, weapon searches, dress codes etc all enforced many times by the police. All it takes is the police officer to say sorry that color shirt is a gang color.

Or the ever present rent-a-cops. Guys that dress up 'like' cops. They drive the mall-security vans and wear 'security' badges and have power trips where they want to stop and search your back packs, look over your CDs or kick you out for skate boarding, talking or having fun.

For the average person the line between cop and rent-a-cop is very thin to non existent.

What can be done about it?

I know that if you removed the traffic and drug enforcement from police officer duties people wouldn't hate the police so much.

People dislike being busted for victim less crimes. Drugs and traffic violations are for the most part just that.

Its hard to be happy about getting a $100 ticket for not paying 75 bucks to get my tags renewed to drive my car on public roads my taxes pay for already. And no one is going to be overjoyed at having to pay 75 dollars for not getting their car inspected by some pimple face at Jiffy Lube.

 

[Reyn]

Quote:
Not all LEO,s are bad people

It doesn't matter if 99/100 are good people so long as that 100th is running the show.

Is this not the same argument as an anti-gun person comparing you to Cho. Not all gun owners are evil murderers but it doesnt matter that 99/100 are responsible gun owners as long as that one is killing innocent people.

 

[Deanimator]

Quote:
Not all LEO,s are bad people

It doesn't matter if 99/100 are good people so long as that 100th is running the show.

Is this not the same argument as an anti-gun person comparing you to Cho. Not all gun owners are evil murderers but it doesnt matter that 99/100 are responsible gun owners as long as that one is killing innocent people.

NO, it's not. The only "show" I run is my own.

Officer Alvin Weems blew an unarmed man's brains out for absolutely no reason at all. And he did this STANDING UNDER A VIDEO CAMERA.

Chicago OPS recommended that Weems be fired.

Police Superintendent Phil Cline overruled them and gave Weems a THIRTY DAY SUSPENSION, for MURDER. He has since PROMOTED Weems to DETECTIVE.

Now you show me where I or any other individual gun owner has THAT kind of power to defeat justice.

 

[TCB in TN]

Is this not the same argument as an anti-gun person comparing you to Cho. Not all gun owners are evil murderers but it doesnt matter that 99/100 are responsible gun owners as long as that one is killing innocent people.

Actually it is not, Police Officers are supposed to be civil servents. They are to be doing a job for us, not lording it over on us! As I have said on numerous occasions I have many family and friends in LE, and a great respect for them. I also have many I know in LE that I am shocked are allowed to have a badge. Without rehashing all of the details lets just say while many local LEOs have been let go for their misdeeds, there are many more who need to be. That opinion does not just come from my knowledge but also from the comments and admissions of several of those still on the force! If you are a LEO and you do it right then you will have my respect, my graditude, and my thanks, but if you take advantage or your position then you deserve a swift, severe punishment!

 

[JWarren]

I've been thinking a bit about how any thread like this ends up with the "Cop Bashing" comments or accusastions. Because I often come down on the side of caution and asserting our rights, I felt it may be a good idea to articulate my reasoning for being this position and address "cop bashing."


I frankly don't see the "bashing" in the vast majority of posts on THR that receive assertions that they are "cop bashing." Most of these posts begin and end with the premises that it is important to assert the rights our forefathers fought for, and that you should always be cognizant of your situation.

I feel that the worries of "cop bashing" stem from an extrapolation in some peoples' minds that if you say ANYTHING critical of ANY LEO, you are bashing the entire institution. Somehow it becomes percieved that wary posters here lump every LEO into one big "LEO mound of play-doe" that acts, believes, and thinks as one. This is a silly notion. As has been asserted even on this thread, LEOs are individuals with their own sets of beliefs, actions, character, and goals. However, it is impossible to immediately know what you are up against and you must be prepared for those of questionable character.

Wait a second.... isn't that that the same thing LEO's have to consider in every encounter? Why.. yes it is. It is naive to expect a citizen to have less concern over his or her self than one would be more than willing to allow a LEO. Only it is "caution" when a LEO does it. It's "bashing" when a citizen discusses his or her concerns.


We all know that most LEOs are decent, hard working, and ethical persons. I don't think that there is any question there. We also know that this is not the case 100% of the time. Repeatedly, we are reminded of this through media outlets or personal experience. I think it is asking too much of citizens to ask or expect them to completely give LEOs the benefit of the doubt. I don't do it with strangers on the street, and I don't do it with strangers that may stop my car.

I would expect a high character LEO to understand this and respect this. Those that I have seen in the past posting here that get bent out of shape over our concerns give me strong indications of thier character and only reinforce my resolve to be cautious.

Most people gain their views through personal experience. As has been said earlier on this thread, most people remember the negative experiences more keenly than the positive. That may be the case, but I don't think it is universal. I have had MANY positive experiences with LEOs. I have family members and friends that have become LEOs. I've also had negative experiences with LEOs. The inescapable REALITY is that a string of positive experiences do not somehow ERASE the negative ones. No. You lump them into your world view, and forumulate your views accordingly. Even if you know that most LEO's are great, you also know that there are some that aren't. Just like ordinary people.

Would the fact that you know most ordinary people are decent cause you to let a stranger on the street into your home and let him keep your 7 year old daughter while you go out shopping? Of course you wouldn't. Why should you give greater benefit of the doubt to a stranger who happens to work for a LE agency?


I have gone on record that I understand that most LEOs are "good guys." But I do believe it is useful for understanding why I may feel the need to be "on guard." This is not "cop bashing." This is not an attack on the LE community. If it upsets any LEOs that read this board, you should be more angry with the officers whose actions created this view. It didn't form in a vacuum.


-- In high school, I was pulled over for going 78 in a 55. I am fully aware of my transgression, and do not defend it. However, when I rolled down the window to give the HP my information, he didn't say a word. Instead, he bodily pulled me out the window and literally threw me into the highway. (fortunately no traffic was coming) The entire time he is cursing me. Unfortunately for him, he did this acrosss from a gas station with LOTS of witnesses. I never did find out why he did what he did.

-- In my college days, a fraternity brother in Criminal Justice interned with a large metropolitan LE force in his home city every summer (I won't mention the agency). While we would hang out, he would casually tell stories of his experiences. I heard many stories of back room "beat a confession out of someone" occurences. He defended them by saying "we KNEW he did it, but we just didn't have the proof." I was (and still am agast.) My fraternity brother is now a detective for that same agency.

-- On of my best friends from HS has been a LEO since college. I heard him tell a number of tales of how someone who resisted arrest or otherwise angered the arresting officers would have "the score" settled. Once, I was told how a person was taken down a "back road" and beat down with a mag light.

-- The sheriff of our county during my HS years was well known to be on payroll with one of the drug dealers in the area.

-- Just recently, I had to make formal complaints to the commander of the local HP troop because a Highway Patrol was repeatedly pulling my wife over for no reason, never giving her a citiation, and detaining her to pressure her to date him. It took contact from my family's lawyer and a threat of sexual harrassment charges to end this.

These are only MY experiences.


Who hasn't seen the video footage of the two New Orleans police officers forcing a tourist to take money from the ATM and give to them?

Who hasn't seen all the things that Deanimator listed?


The fact is that there is OEVERWHELMING evidence that shows that LEOs are just subject to the same failings and weakness as ordinary persons. Why shouldn't they be? After all, they ARE ordinary people. They should be subject to the same scrutinity that we would give any other person.


I hope that clears up my positions.



-- John

 

[TallPine]

I dunno ... maybe driving the speed limit and following other "rules of the road" would be a simpler solution.

I haven't been stopped in over 25 years, so I dunno what cops ask people these days.

 

[jklinstein]

HerrWolfe, indeed, we must disagree on this one.

Making searches more difficult makes it more difficult to prevent, stop and solve crimes. Prevention of searches is on the side of crooks [not withstanding a constitutional right].
Yup, including victimless crimes and crimes by abusive police officers/agencies. Note that many "crooks" can only be considered such as they're acting out of ignorance and committing victimless crimes.
If asked I would agree to a search; the LEO has nothing to gain from planting evidence in my car/truck and everything to loose.
Then why does it happen?
Would only want the LEO to state why a search is requested, i.e. recent burgulary and perp's cars matches mine or a kidnapping just occured in area or whatever.
Actually agree on this.
If folks who had nothing to hide, agreed to seaches, those who did not agree would quickly be identified for high probability of contraband.
Well I suppose technically this is true. But at this point, there is no point to the 4th amendment, so you're proposing a Constitutional change.